Subwoofers - Final Thoughts with Martin Logan ESL 13A

You have powered woofers in these speakers that you can tune to a perfect blend with the panels. You can turn up the bass and still retain woofer/panel integration. Adding extra subs, in my opinion, is asking for trouble. You will most likely not get the timing right and it will be a major pain to integrate.

Hey @navyachts all good here! Hope you’re doing well!

I never felt the need for subs with the ML Montis. I’m surprised to hear your setup is lacking in bass department.

It’s possible you’re sitting in a null. That’s the only thing I can think of.
I would recommend trying to move closer to and then further away from the speakers while playing a test track that is known for good bass. See if you hit a spot where the bass response becomes acceptable. One other thing to try is to move the speakers. Further or closer to the front wall. Make small adjustments 1” at a time. But try the listening position first.

@navyachts balanced sound is key. Too much bass and it overshadows the mids and highs - you lose clarity and details. Not enough bass and your system will most likely sound bright. Use the flashlight trick for the toe in with MLs. I would still recommend to pursue resolution to your bass concerns with speaker placement. 
With MLs pulling them about 4 feet (panel to front wall behind speakers) worked for me. About 96-98” apart center to center. If it all fails try a sub. 

Also…check the filter settings on the DAC. I find the Minimum 0, Clock Wide to produce a bit warmer and fuller sound than the Linear 0. The difference is subtle but audible. 

Running the main speaker’s full range and augmenting the lowest frequencies with the sub(s) is the best of both worlds.
 

@ozzy +1

subs used to boost bass will just completely break a good setup 

@navyachts definitely try a sub but I’m surprised you’re selling your Aurender. What do you have in mind for a source to replace the N200?

The M1 as network player. My Coda preamp is up for grabs as well. I'm using the M1 for that too. I like separates the most, but I want some decent subs as well, so it's a bit of a tradeoff.
 

I encourage you to spend a very good amount of time using the Bricasti network renderer before you sell your Aurender N200. I’ve used the M3 long enough to realize how crappy the network card is as a streamer (used as Roon endpoint as well as with Mcinnect). When I bought my N200 it just blew away the network renderer without breaking a sweat using the stock USB cable that I found in the Aurender box. I’ve gone back and forth many times and there’s just simply no comparison. 
I’ve also used the M3 preamp section. The Bricadti is excellent as far as DAC preamp sections go but it just doesn’t compete with a good preamp when it comes to soundstage layering and depth. The presentation is more natural with a preamp as well. 

I would just pick up a good tube preamp to use with the Coda amp. 
 

I owned CSiB and it’s an amazing amplifier (same amp as your No.8). It is fast, articulate, engaging and super clear sounding. No grain, no glare. 

I think selling your N200 to buy a sub is a mistake. Selling your Coda preamp gives you options - try a good tube pre ir get a sub. Just my opinion. 

@rauliruegas thank you for the compliments sir. 

A pair of Martin Logan Montis with powered woofers were the speakers I replaced with the Sabrinas.

I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. Problem is, every room is different. Every listener is different. What is OPs point of reference for bass? Is it a live concert? Is it the bass he gets in his car? 
Let’s keep in mind the high end speaker manufacturers have an objective to make the speaker sound as coherent as possible in a variety of rooms. That usually means they’re after accurate sound more than they are after blowing your wig off with bass. Quality over quantity  

As to Martin Logans they’re not easy to set up properly due to being dipole with powered woofers. I’ve heard several models including 12A and 13A in different rooms with diff components. There was no lack of bass.

Wilsons are difficult to place correctly as well due to time alignment - sensitive to placement changes less than an inch depending on where they are in a room. I can place my speakers to overload the room with bass. That’s easy. Most difficult is to find placement that provides coherent presentation. 
The only thing we can do is try to strike that balance.

Then there are variables such as type of music you listen to and recording quality. 

You can feed the sub from your preamp RCA out if you’re using XLR outs to drive the amp

I wouldn’t sell any components if I were you. You may regret it.
Try a sub first from the dealer that has a good return policy (Music Direct, Upscale, Crutchfield). You can use the Coda preamp to drive the sub(s) if you have 2 RCA outs. See how it works with your preamp. 
Also…your dealer stating the woofers in the ML speakers aren’t fast he’s full of 💩 

ML finally, after many years, were able to get the panel/woofer integration correct. 

I'm starting to get cold feet about this whole subwoofer thing,
 

LOL

@navyachts you essentially have tone controls now. Turn up the bass level knob in the back of the ML woofer cabinets. 😂

@navyachts You got it! Keep us posted please 

@rauliruegas I get it. But…I’m enjoying the music with my system and I do not hear IMD. Neither do I need to obsess over it because…
According to Wilson Audio…

The tweeter is isolated internally from the midrange and woofer drivers with the latter two transducers sharing the same internal volume. Wilson Audio notes that in this configuration any potential for intermodulation distortion is minimized by prudent driver selection and precise porting of the enclosure. 

This sounds like truth as I cannot detect any distortion. The drivers cross over seamlessly. 
 

I’m very thorough when it comes to my system but I think we’re attempting to shoot down a fly with a bazooka here…

By the way I looked at your system page and I’m very impressed! Gorgeous system and some collection of cartridges you got there…enjoy!

@rauliruegas thank you. And yes I’m aware of Wilson Audio roots. And I did read that stereophile review and J.A’s measurements section. No speaker is perfect. 

@navyachts a thought just popped in my head…

When I had the Montis I ran them first with Rogue ST100 amplifier driven by RP1 and later by RP5 and then finally by Pass XP-12. Every one of these preamps had different capabilities in the lower registers. I then upgraded from ST100 to Pass XA30.8 for better synergy with the XP-12. The bass output was so prominent that I actually had to dial the bass down a notch or two on the back of the Montis bass cabinets. 
I know the MLs have amplified bass modules but the amp’s or preamp’s sound signature comes thru even in the bass.

I also just recently had Coda CSiB V1 integrated which is the same amp as the No.8 you’re using in your system. This was with my Wilsons but let’s forget that for a second. The bass with Coda V1 is quiet different from pretty much any amp I owned before. It is fast, tuneful and articulate. Compared to Pass amps it’s definitely leaner. I believe it’s due to the amp design (no or low feedback).

It is possible that what you’re experiencing is related to the way your Coda amp presents the lower registers. I’m not familiar with what the Coda preamps sound like so I may be completely off track here. Add to this the fact that the ML panels are pretty power hungry and can take toll on the amplifier, it could be something worth exploring. Coda amps are high current and have capability to drive your speakers without issues, however, I would run this by Doug Dale and get his take on it. Doug can upgrade the V1 to V2 or V3 which would give you less Class A power but potentially more “slam” in the bass. Wild thought but I wouldn’t cross it off the list.

As a side note, I really liked the Coda integrated and liked its bass. But it’s all subjective. You may be craving more oomph and the V2 or V3 might fix that for you

@navyachts cool. Can you try the Bricasti direct into the amp using the M1S2 preamp section? See if any difference in bass between it and the coda pre?

@navyachts yes I remember since I got the Wilsons right after I sold the MLs. It’s a completely different sound. The MLs were slightly warmer and darker sounding than the Wilsons. The Sabrinas are more open, more detailed and more realistic especially with music involving drums. It’s a more “live” sound than the MLs. Very transparent but not bright. Great clarity. 
Few items to note with Wilson speakers - they require top notch high current amplification, they are very sensitive to room acoustics and placement. But once properly setup they excel at every style of music vs. the MLs that favor vocals, jazz and acoustic music. 

Well you already sold your N200 so any conversation on the Bricasti network renderer vs. N200 is moot. But in any case….
The discussion you referenced is old and doesn’t apply to M1S2, M3 and M21. The newer generation of the Bricasti DACs have higher jitter on the network renderer than the previous M1SE. That’s one. Two - with the network renderer you’re limited to running Mconnect or Roon. The Mconnect option always sounded more “digital” to me. Roon sounded better but in a long run its rolled off and clinical/sterile sounding compared to Aurender. It was identical to Lumin U1 Mini though, and that streamer retailed for around $2,000 new…close to what Bricasti charges for their network option ($1500 if I’m not mistaken). One other thing - quickly switching back and forth between the Bricasti network card and Aurender may not reveal all of the differences you would notice if you spent a good amount of time listening to network card. As a matter of fact any A/B comparison done quickly is not a good way to do it regardless of what’s being compared, DACs, streamers, preamps, cables, etc.

Sometimes you won’t realize what’s missing until you spend time with one component before you reintroduce the other. Good news is you can always buy an N200 or any other dedicated streamer, or preamp. It’s all part of the game! Lol

@navyachts cool. May be worth giving Audirvana a try as well for comparison. 

I had an awesome conversation with Doug over the phone. Great guy. Told me few funny stories. I think he’s more of a phone conversation type dude and email might not be his favorite form of communication .

Happy Holidays to you too @navyachts !