Substantial Upgrade

Enjoy! Happy for you and the wife! Stay safe and warm. 

I just read some OP's posts in the first page, I should have done that first. Sprout using it's phono stage? Right. Sorry I wouldn't have asked for detailed listening impressions from such a setup.

Enjoy! Happy for you and the wife! Stay safe and warm. 

Nice upgrade and happy to hear how pleased you are with your selection.

Best regards,

Jim Perry

@jjss49 - yeah, when I first responded I didn't see his other post history.  I'm good.  

@madavid0

I’m not really sure what the point of telling me turntables are a scam when I just posted about upgrading from an Audio Technica to a Rega P6 and Sutherland KC Vibe mkii and noticed a substantial difference in the sound. I think most people are aware of the law of diminishing returns, but that is not my situation. Is your comment in reference to something specific?

op

i wouldn’t get sucked into troll warfare... just look up this person’s prior posts - all heat and anger, rarely any useful light shed

just enjoy your new rig and the music it plays, ignore the noise 

@bruinucafan Can you describe in detail the upgrade to the sound? Did you compare them back to back to validate it? Which cart are you using and did you upgrade that too?

@madavid0 - I'm not really sure what the point of telling me turntables are a scam when I just posted about upgrading from an Audio Technica to a Rega P6 and Sutherland KC Vibe mkii and noticed a substantial difference in the sound.  I think most people are aware of the law of diminishing returns, but that is not my situation.  Is your comment in reference to something specific? 

I would beware of being led down the path of being scammed in this market / industry. See my other topic I just updated about tonearm ripoffs. You’ll notice that almost all of the responses in that thread REFUSE to answer the question if tonearms result in an upgrade and instead mostly what I got were people repeating useless truisms about matching and what they do for "you". There were a handful of responders which did clearly state that upgrades to their tonearms resulting in significant sonic upgrades, but they never detail these sound quality improvements.

So, I’m just saying: be prepared for the possibility that turntables and their components are largely a SCAM, and that if everything is matching right, cart is a competent MC with the right material, etc, then anything you pay above the minimum required for this baseline is simply a RIPOFF, a racket for small manufacturers with workshops to make wild margins off of building boutique parts with virtually no sonic benefit over simply competent parts.

Quick follow up:  Everything has arrived and I dropped the needle today.  For my first test run, I played the MoFi pressing of Dire Straits, Love Over Gold.  Somewhat hilariously, I played it at 33 RPM because I didn't realize how the NEO PSU worked lol.  So that was fun.  Quick reset, get it going at 45 RPM, and--oh my god.  Telegraph Road, dead quiet noise floor, incredible separation, and what I would describe as open space, as if the sound finally had room to breath.  I've certainly never heard my Totems sing like that before.    

Now, as I mentioned before, my wife and I listen a lot together, but I listened to Dire Straits on my own and did not tell her my impressions.  Instead, when I told her it was all ready, I had her pick an album, and she picked the Analogue Productions pressing of The Four Seasons.  I drop the needle, and about 5 seconds in her jaw hits the floor.  In the end, we both got to experience a tremendous audible improvement in the music.

I also mentioned above that I was going to wait until we get a new house before getting new speakers.  I'm still going to wait, but maybe a Rel T7i is in my future to replace my TSC sub....

Nice!

Thanks again to everyone for their help and feedback in this thread.  I ordered the Rega P6, Sutherland KC Vibe mkii, and the Hana SL cartridge.  Also spring for a Tru-lift.  I'm really excited for this new setup and, more importantly, to listen to all the great records I've been buying the last month in anticipation of this purchase! As with many others on this forum, I also want to give a big thanks to Kat at Upscale for patiently working with me through this process.  

@co93 - Yeah I hear you.  This is one reason I'm not getting the volare--the museum dust cover just isn't going to work for me.  

Bruin.  I’m actually a clear audio guy.  Biggest problem is no integrated dust cover.  And the after market isn’t cheap, and is something you have to figure out where to put it when you’re using the table.  Once again, people need to understand your living situation.  

You may want to look at the Clearaudio Concept with the concept mc cartridge. Got back into records a year ago and this was my plunge.
Started out with Clearaudio phono preamp. Sounded Great. Since then have moved over to Parasound Jc3jr. Nice upgrade. My final step will be to move into the PS audio phono preamp. IMO MC is the way to go then your phono stage. Take it slow don't go crazy

there are a few simple rules.  On is if you have little kids, stay away from tubes.  Just say no.   On the phono preamp, there are plenty of good choices.   People on the site will swear by one brand over another.   But my experience is at the same price point, the differences aren’t as big as the differences in cartridges.  

@co93 - Thanks for the quick response!  Yes, that makes a lot of sense.  I'm 95% sure I'm getting the Rega P6 at this point.  A lot of really great recommendations in this thread but I ultimately think the Rega is going to be best for my use case.  The other 5% of me is thinking about a step up to a P8, but I will not likely do that for several reasons, including that I have a toddler and am pretty sure I need a dust cover that fully closes for the safety of the table.  

I'm still not quite sure what to do on phonostage.  The KC Vibe mk ii is still the top contender, as I've not seen a single bad comment about Sutherland from anyone, and in the $1000 category I'm not sure whether it is worth overthinking this.  But I am intrigued by a tube phono pre since it seems like almost all of you prefer that route.  Maybe that will be for another day though.

I’ve got a P6 rega for my son (and a pro-ject for my daughter)   My tables are $10k and $20k with carts.  More often, the higher priced tables need more precise set up and tweaking.   Rega is a good, solid table.  I like the aesthetics of the higher priced Feickert and love his protracter.   But he is a small batch producer.  And you pay a premium for that.  Rega is pretty large, and normally that means a better value with a larger support system.   You can get them serviced anywhere....
But the worse thing you can do is overthink it....

@sandthemall  - gotcha.  My mistake.  I've been seeing that stellar phono pop up in discussions everywhere and assumed that's what you meant.

@kahlenz - glad to hear you think the  KC Vibe is awesome!  

@kennyc - I seriously considered the UltraDeck, but my local dealer said hey have had some issues with it and thought the Rega was a better fit in that price range for me. And just to be clear on the whole import/tariff thing, I have no problem paying that stuff (and since I'm in the U.S. both the Rega and Volare will be imports) I was just using that as one variable that I felt makes discussing purchases using budget as an absolute guide less than ideal.  

@co93 - Thanks for the suggestion.  Do you have personal experience with the P6?  And what do you mean by forgivable?

Stick with the rega.  It’s a forgiving table that gets the job done.  Plus you should expect your local dealer to set it up so it’s plug and play to you 

@bruinuclafan
Since you mentioned MoFi UltraPhono I’m assuming that you’re not against Mofi import duties/tariffs/tax.

$2K Mofi Ultradeck - great reviews, newer design by established highly regarded manufacturers. I am building a high-end bucket-list audiophile system from scratch and am interested in best bang for buck without sacrificing sonic performance so this was on my short list (but I gave in to a much higher $$ VPI mass loaded used turntable- upgradeitus?). Optionally bundled with the positive reviewed MasterTracker cartridge to save you $.

Somebody’s review on https://www.stereo.net " MoFi UltraDeck ,Clear audio concept , Rega Planar 6 which to choose?"
"I recently auditioned the UltraDeck against the P6.
To me the UltraDeck was a fair leap ahead.
Firstly in plinth isolation from whatever you sit it on. Also it seemed to retrieve a lot more from the groove than the Rega. In particular the lower registers. "

I have not heard the Hana ML, but I suspect the $450.00 upgrade will be subtle compared to the SL.  The difference between the EL and the SL is immediately apparent.  The SL is probably the sweet spot in the Hana range.  I would pause on the ML until you have figured out your phono preamp and can dial in the exact load and coil capacitance that would be needed to extract that last drop of goodness.Cartridges in the $1000 - $2000 price range (and I put the SL and ML in that range because they are exceptional values) should be considered along with the phono preamp.  Anything more expensive and you are in a rarified area I cannot comment on.The KC Vibe is awesome.  I seriously considered it, but went with something (a bit more expensive) that works better for my system and intended cartridge range.I am currently running a Hana SL on a Technics SL1200 GR running through an Odyssey Suspiro (SS phono pre).  Also use an Mofi MasterTracker MM (also awesome and in some ways - and with some records - better than the Hana).  Also llike the AT 740ML, my trusty Shure V-15 type III, and a few Grados and an old Pickering that are fun to mess with.  The Technics handles them all with aplomb (well, the Shure is a little wobbly, but it works fine and sounds like it is supposed to).  One of the great things (and there are many, comsidering the price) of the SL 1200 G series is the romoveable head shell and ease of set-up, which allows me to play with cartridges without much fuss.Get the front in dialed in to suit your needs and preferences, then worry about amplification and speakers to fit your room, tastes, budget, etc.

@bruinuclafan,
I wrote "stellar" meaning 'a really good one' of your own choosing. I did not state a brand. That's up to you to decide. 

I use a Project RS phono stage with an outboard power supply I got from eBay. It is dual mono and very good. I can recommend It...but it's also $1000 with a wall wart. The wall wart is noisy but Project offers a battery power supply. It was too pricey for me so took a chance on an $175 18v power supply on eBay and couldn't be happier.

Project has other power supplies at different price points. My advice to you is to stay away from wall warts...and get something that allows you to contour to a wide variety of carts...so it will grow with you. So spend a bit more than you might here. 

@bruinuclafan - it was the price/quality equilibrium as you so well state. For instance, I only stream for background music and finding new music, if I listened more 'seriously' I would invest in a better streamer. Same with the choice of TT. It sounds wonderful and fits my use and system. 

@sandthemall - Why do you suggest the PS Audio Stella Phono?  It seems like a $2500 phonostage would be vastly out of place in my system.  Also, from browsing the forums, it seems like PS Audio as a brand is pretty controversial.  It's interesting that you recommend them because I actually emailed them about pairing the Stellar with my Sprout100, and the response I got was that I should insteadtrade in my Sprout for a Stellar Strata.  I frankly found that a bit odd given that the person responding didn't even know what speakers I had.    

I would consider a Kuzma arm with the Feickert. 
That would be a good place to start.

OP

Unfortunately my Dad is in Louisiana and I am in Kansas so it has been some time since I've heard his system (Thanksgiving 2019). The last time I heard his Planar 6 he was still running the older Ania cartridge and the cheaper fono MC. I have not heard it in the current configuration with the new Ania Pro or Aria phonostage, but he thought the difference was very noticable.  I can say I always thought the table sounded better than its price point and it's part of the reason I upgraded from a Planar 2 to a Planar 8. It has been my experience with Rega you see noticable upgrades as you move up the model line.

I had a Planar 2 that started with the RB220 tonearm. I found a deal for an RB330 and the positive change it made was very noticable. I started with the Ania MC cart and Fono MC with my Planar 8. Changing to an Aria phonostage was another large positive improvement. Going from the Ania to the Apheta 3 again yielded big ppsutuve changes. Every time I have moved up the Rega product line I have not been disappointed.

Regarding MC vs MM I like both but wouldn't buy any of the Rega MM carts. It is worth your time to look at the package deals on the Rega MC carts if you are considering a new Rega deck given the package discount. The Planar 6/Ania Pro combo is pretty attractive given the Pro has a finer stylus profile than the original Ania. The original Ania's stylus is the big downside to that cartridge but I only realized that after going to something with a fine-line profile. 

Good luck and happy hunting. 

@yogiboy I just checked and the table is set to Phono out, so my past self must have already figured this out correctly when I bought the Sprout100!

Sounds like you may need to do a little more research and auditioning. No need to hurry as hearing improvement in stages is really fun.

Someone else mentioned this...but I will repeat.
Put a VM740ml cartridge on your current TT first. I had this cart on my Technics 1200G. It will give you a really good improvement right off the bat.

Then upgrade to a stellar Phono stage. Something that you can grow with...go big here.

Then try a new TT. You will notice the improvement but it will not be as vast as you think and you will be able to quantify the level of each improvement.

As for turntables, the Technics 1200GR is my recommendation. Made in Japan and built to outlast most premium TTs out there. 

@bruinuclafan, the reason that I went with Jelco TK850 arm on my Dr. Feickert Volare table is that it can be order with an add-on with the VTA at the time. I also ordered my TT from Upscale Audio and Kat helped me set up the cartridge before it was shipped to me. All I did for the setup was leveling the TT and adjust the counter weight to set the vertical traction force. The TT is very stable and I didn't have to make any adjustment since the original setup, although I do check periodically. I didn't experience the problems that were described in the links, maybe the opposite. From my email communicated with Chris Feickert, the motor in the Volare table was a bit 'over designed' to provide speed stability and accuracy.  

But I agreed with jperry's comment two posts above that you should check with Kat to see if you can order the OL arm with an add-on VTA.  

From experience — in your listening room, do you have wood suspension floors under a concrete foundation like most colonials or high ranches in the US? If so and you choose the Rega, make sure you also buy the shelf for it — footfall is a nasty attribute in these types of homes and the Rega can’t always handle it resulting in vibration, skipped records, etc.

As for the phonostage, you can’t go wrong with a Sutherland (it’s all he does after founding and leaving Martin Logan a long time ago). I also had the KC Vibe, then the 20/20 LPS and the thing about his design is that it’s dead quiet, he focuses on the power supply and really just well made with high end components. There’s really nothing negative ever said about it - it just does everything well. And the new version of the Vibe is supposed to be even better and at less than $1,000 it’s got to be considered right there at the top or near top of its price point.

"Anyway, had your chance. Bye!"

Hi again MC
No doubt OP is pleased you have signed out.
You really are not a very nice person. 

I would buy the Dr. Feickert Volare over the Rega P6. I have heard both brands extensively in familiar systems. One of the compelling differences of the Dr. Feickert is the high torque drive resulting in a bigger sound. I would check and see if one of the tonearms available comes with VTA adjustment you can easily do without getting under the TT. Many tonearms come with an easily adjustable VTA collar.

I noticed most of the negative comments on the Dr. Feickert turntable came from posters who had not heard the Dr. Feickert turntable. Something you should consider carefully.

Currently I don't own either, but I used to own a Rega. 

My recommendation for a phono preamp, is that you work with a local dealer, so you can try a few, or just buy a few used and keep the winner.

My system is posted here if you want to look at it.

Best of luck with your decision 

@ bruinuclafan
If you are using the phono on the sprout you should not be using the built in phono on the LP120. There is a switch on the rear to by-pass the LP-120 phono section. You might want to check that out!
This is from the owners manual!

If the system you are using has a PHONO input, set thepre-amp selector switch to the PHONO OUT position andconnect the turntable’s output cables to the PHONO inputs onyour system, observing Red for Right channel and White forLeft channel 

Adding another recommendation on already crowded recommendation would not help any, so I will just second Technics SL1200GR, or SL1200G if you can afford. I almost purchased SL1200GR, but changed my mind when Denon DP80 became available for local pickup.
By the way, I own Clearaudio Bluemotion (similar level at Concept), Garrard 301, and now Denon DP80. All three are very good tables and I would recommend them all too.

Wow. Tons of great posts in this thread. Thank you all very much. Let me try and respond:

@p05129 - The sprout is great and works well with the Totems. As for whether this is a "starter," it’s hard to say. I’ve had my AT-LP120 for five years and have been slowly amassing a collection. So I don’t think I’m necessarily a newb, but I haven’t upgraded anything since getting the Totems so I am new in the sense of upgrading and perhaps its a starter system that is beyond entry level.

@deadhead1000 - what I spend here won’t impact my future speaker purchase one bit. Glad to know you loved your Totems! Since you are happy with your P6, why would you upgrade if you used it more? Do you find it to be "good enough" or is it a price/quality equilibrium for what you were willing to spend given your listening habits?

@rockyboris - I have two questions for you. Why didn’t you ultimately go with the Feickert? And if you love the P6 why would I want to upgrade it? Just curious.

@guy-incognito - since I am assuming you listen to your dad’s system as well, are there noticeable differences between your setup and his? Maybe this is a loaded question since I don’t know what else is in your chain.

@ocean2059 - what made you choose the Jelco over the OL arm? Also, you mention that the table is stable. So you’ve not had any of the issues that the two reviews noted above experienced?

@liamowen - I too want to leapfrog the sideways upgrading I see a lot of folks doing. However, I’m not sure I’m ready to jump all the way to a P10. When you say you had the RP6, is that the old one or the new P6?

@tastypeter - wow, that is quite an endorsement coming from someone with such an expensive main TT. What phono stage did you ultimately pair the Volare with? Also, are you happy with the OL arm, and did you consider any others (I see some people opt for the Jelco)? I actually had a very long conversation with Kat, which is what made me seriously consider this option. She also has the Sutherland. I agree, it speaks volumes.  And yes, having a wife who enjoys this hobby makes it so enjoyable. In fact, she is the one who got us into it!

@yogiboy - I do have my LP120 plugged into the Sprout’s phono section (labeled "vinyl") but since the LP120 has a built-in phono stage I don’t think that can be bypassed. I could be wrong.

I notice from this thread that there is perhaps a divide between MM and MC, with some strongly suggesting I move to a more expensive MM while others welcoming an MC. My thinking here is that if I was going to buy a new phonostage, I wanted to get one that would work with both so I would have flexibility in the future. Other than cost, are there any downsides to switching to an MC at this point?

Finally, in a weird twist of fate, I actually bent the stylus on my cartridge this evening. I had a spare AT95e and did my first ever cartridge change. It was slightly terrifying but it went well. I can definitely see the value of a removable headshell now as @rauliruegas mentioned.

Marantz TT-15s1. $1500, looks great, and comes with a great cartridge. I think its a steal. 

Glad that miller carbon has left the thread, now you will get valuable responses. The sprout 100 is a nice piece especially for your totems. I have this same integrated in my office.
If you are just starting out, get a decent TT with a decent MM cartridge and use the builtin phono preamp in the sprout 100 until you decide what your new room will be like in the future. If your room is much larger, you will be upgrading your amp to maybe separates or another larger integrated that has a phono preamp builtin.
If you get any of the tables suggested above, you are limited by the tonearms on the quality of the cartridge you can use on them. If this is a starter system, then by all means get any of the TT's mentioned above with the Hana cartridge, you probably won't hear a difference between these tt's. Later on, if you want to upgrade to say a $3000 or more cartridge, you won't be using any of the TT's tonearms listed above. I have had over a dozen TT's over 5 decades and each 1 cost more and the later TT's used another manufacturers tonearm.

I just got the P6 with their MC for $2300. No set up issues at all and sounds great out of the box. If I listened to more vinyl,  like it sounds you do, I would have gone one step up, such as say the P8 or 10 or the Doctor with the higher priced Hana MC, which will run you around $5k. Just don’t let the $5k take away from your future speaker purchase.
I owned the rainmakers for years. Loved them. 

Opinions are nice and plentiful but I own the P6, buy the Dr. Feickert. If you get serious you will eventually want to upgrade the platter, sub platter and tonearm, $2000.00. It will then sound almost as good as the Volare but you’ll never get your money out of the mods.
 I love my P6 but I bought an Oracle Delphi for my main tt my second choice was the Feickert.

Enjoy the vinyl

I have a Rega Planar 8, Apheta 3 and Aria (mk 2) phono stage. My dad landed on the Planar 6, Ania Pro, and Aria phono stage. We are both very happy with our purchases. We like the simple set up and how well the Rega components work together. I can't offer a comparison with your other options but we are content. 

To OP, I've gone through a similar consideration last year and went with Dr. Feickert's Volare table with Jelco TK850 arm and Hana ML. I am extremely happy with Dr. Feickert's table and would highly recommended it. The table is very solid and stable. Currently the table is connected to a Manley Chinook amp which I am also very happy with. I could live happily with this system for a very long time. But I have no experience with Rega P6 so I would comment on that.  

Hands down, the best $1500 turntable available is the Music Hall mmf-7.3 (best bang for buck in the Music hall line-up). It would take a turntable 2 and 3 times its price to sound *significantly* better. I prefer the more expensive ($1795/Ortofon 2m bronze) Walnut version myself, beautiful. Maybe take the 2m bronze off and stick another killer product, the Hana EL mc cartridge ($475), on the end of the tone arm, nice....and then send the signal to a Jensen mc 2RR-L SUT, and ultimately to a Tavish design Tubed phono preamp like The Classic 😉....sweet.....then roll in some nos tubes...RCA, GE, Tungsram, Amperex, Mullard, Telefunken....even better....😁

Joining the aforementioned are the following;
-Sugden A21se signature pure class A integrated
-Tannoy Legacy Eaton
-Marantz SA 8005 sacd
-Marantz HD CD-1
-Marantz st6000 tuner
-cambridge T500 tuner
-Aiwa AD F-770 3 head deck
-Musical Fidelity V90 dac, *another killer product, low class A recommended component (Stereophile)
-Graham Slee Novo headphone amp
-AKG k550 reference headphones

Vertere Acoustics Phono-1 is a very good phono stage. $1000 or so. All the capacitance and resistor toggles are at the bottom of the unit. Not inside like some.
The Phono-1 has received great reviews and hits way above its weight...Vertere is a UK company but there are N.A. dealers who carry Vertere in the U.S. and Canada. I can refer you to a dealer if where I bought the same if you ever are interested.

I had a Rega RP6 with the Exact 2 MM cartridge.  I paired it with a Pass Labs XP15.  I know you mentioned you will be getting a Hana, which I think will make all the difference in the world, as I found the RP6 with the Exact 2 to be unlistenable-- as in I wanted to throw a sneaker at it every time I put a record on.

I checked in with my very spendy local hi-fi shop and the sales guy delivered the news-- either you are going to have to spend a lot more money on a turntable and cartridge, or I should sell the table and the phono stage and get a better source for CD player.

I gave vinyl 1 more chance and went for the Rega RP10 with the Apheta 2, pairing it with the Pass Labs XP 15.  That was 2 years ago, and I am now totally content with my system.

What I have tried to do is leapfrog over incremental improvements and go up several rungs on the chain.  It's more expensive initially, but not in the long run if you get the right stuff and particularly if you buy good gear used.

Enjoy the search, and trust your ears.

I recently purchased a Dr Feickart Volare with an Origin Live tonearm, with after a very long and careful process. This is a second turntable in my home, the first being a Spiral groove. Having such a special tt, and buying a second table without breaking the bank was difficult. Very little would compare to the SG. I believe the Dr Feickart line was  a great choice. The Volare uses lots of the same  Feickart build quality for a fraction on the cost as there highly regarded Blackbird, Firebird, and Woodpecker. German engineering as we know they know how to build great products. I think in your budget, that would be an excellent choice without feeling the need to upgrade in a cpl years after the bug really sets in. I also considered a Sutherland phonostage, and had a very nice conversation with the owner. Though it was in my top three, and also highly regarded. Also the Herron, and Manley Chinook. It took   3 phonostages before finally feeling satisfied . I think you would be very happy with those choices. On a side note, Kat the turntable specialist at Upscsle Audio recently purchased a Feickart Volare for herself. That speaks volumes, or at least to me. Good luck and enjoy. Also, you are lucky to take this journey with your wife. 

"Had your chance"... more like dodged a bullet.

The sprout 100 has a phono section. Have you ever given it a try?