Thanks for doing the experiments, making the videos and a very interesting report, Halcro. I'm not familiar with the Timeline. Does the horizontal spread of the laser on the wall indicate a frequency range of turntable speed?
Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?
Most audiophiles can't seem to believe that a tiny stylus tracking the record groove on a heavy platter could possibly 'slow-down' the rotating speed of a turntable.
I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline.
The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm.
By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left).
You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm.
Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added.
Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.
Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:-
VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE
I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline.
The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm.
By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left).
You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm.
Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added.
Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.
Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:-
VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE
169 responses Add your response
Glad you found it interesting @jtimothya.... The Timeline actually emits a tiny circular red laser flash but because it's revolving as it does it, the projection onto a nearby wall becomes an elongated dash. The more obliquely and further away the wall is situated....determines the length of the dash. Look at the dash when it's projected on the nearby Copperhead tonearm...🤗 |
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the time constant of the timeline is so long in relation to the music it can only show general speed and your experiments seem to show that stylus drag does indeed slow the platter. It is interesting that the TT-81 seems to correct for this "automatically" and seems to suggest that speed on other tables should be set with the stylus in the groove. I think the more true tell as to how much of an issue this is would be to use a much higher sample rate to see how the music dynamically effects the speed. As an aside, I have a 301 and a TT-81 and all i use the TT-81 for is as a test deck to measure cartridges since I much prefer the sound of the 301. |
The belt v direct drive battle has swung to and fro over many decades but is the tide finally about to turn for good in the favour of the latter? Should anyone in 2019 really leave the vital matter of turntable speed control precision depending upon a rubber belt? A rubber belt who’s main purpose seems to be an attempt to dampen and isolate motor vibrations at the cost of significantly measurable imprecision. |
I always thought the Phoenix Engineering setup made sense. Why hi end manufacturers don't incorporate a real time speed monitoring/ adjusting setup is odd. https://sotaturntables.com/products/total-eclipse-package/ Measure speed while playing, adjust when neessary. Pretty simple concept, yet not incorporated in the most advanced tables? |
My Ariston and Linn TT's don't suffer from stylus drag.Indeed they do....🤗 Words, opinions and 'hope' aren't going to cut it on this Thread.... Only a Youtube Video with Timeline and multiple cartridges (as above) or the multiple raising and lowering of a single cartridge will be acceptable as proof 🧐 |
Non-compliant or very low compliance belt and placing the motor drive as close as possible to the circumference of the platter are the best ways to minimize belt creep.There is no evidence that 'belt-creep' is responsible for 'Stylus Drag'. A compliant rubber belt was instrumental in the world-wide acceptance and domination of belt-drive turntables over idlers:-
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The belt v direct drive battle has swung to and fro over many decades but is the tide finally about to turn for good in the favour of the latter? @cd318 The tide has turned. Read Moncrieff's article part 1 article on the Rockport Sirius III http://www.iar-80.com/page12.html It thoroughly lays out the issues with belt drive and other drive systems with a view from several years back. Those issues still hold today. Then to get a perspective on where modern direct drive is today, read Roy Gregory's review of the Monaco 2.0 turntable.http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/grand_prix_monaco_20.htm or a different take here:http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/grand_prix_monaco_20.htm The stable speed accuracy of this table is stunning. While stylus drag cannot be denied (physics), there are ways to deal with it. apologies to H for going off topic... |
Not off Topic JT...😃 I read that Peter Moncrieff article 10 years ago....in fact it has a permanent place on my Desktop. I even wrote to Peter (RIP) to ask him where I could find Part II of the article....but he never got around to finishing it 😥 As you say.... It thoroughly lays out the issues with belt drive and other drive systemsSo thoroughly (and understandable) in fact....that it should be required reading for every 'wannabe' turntable designer and every 'practicing' turntable designer who I'm sure, have little in-depth knowledge of the science and physics espoused in that article 🤯 |
@tablejockey - The Denon DD table(DP75), I purchased in 1980(still have it, in a closet), has a Quartz referenced/AC servo motor speed control system, that reads 1000 precisely recorded pulses, from what amounts to magnetic tape, imprinted on it’s platter’s circumference, via a tape head(like in a cassette deck or RTR). That particular tech’s been out there, for decades. I’d be using the new version of the Roadrunner/Falcon system, with my VPI, if it didn’t require a redesign of my homemade SAMA(remachining, to fit their motor). I waited too long, when the original Phoenix pieces(excellent concept) were available(then: poof, gone). That system would have worked, with my VPI motor. Not that I’ve had any speed issues anyway. Easy to adjust, via my SDS. Long as I keep the belt talced; I measure/hear no drift or pitch change, whether with my LASER tach or strobe . |
Variability adds to the beauty of the vinyl sound . Why try and make it sound digital. Every single live performance does this, except techno. Does this drag decrease with softer passages ? Increase with dynamic peaks ? Back and forth ? I dont think the magic of vinyl should be sterilized to this extent . Same as reference equipment is looking at art under fluorescent lights. |
@davekayc- There’s Physics, again. ie: The heavier the groove modulation, the greater the friction(think sandpaper coarseness). Same with stylus force/pressure, in the groove(higher pressure = higher friction coefficient). Further from the center of the record = more leverage. The fluctuations in actual speed, to me anyway, are inconsequential enough to ignore(it may bother the back of my head, but- not my ears, gratefully). |
Davey and Rodman, Wouldn't you rather leave the human-ness of live music in the hands of the actual musicians, who are also human, rather than to the super-imposed alterations in pitch and timing due to stylus drag, belt creep, and the like? For me, I want to eliminate those mechanical problems to the greatest extent possible so that the actual treatment of the music by the actual musicians gets across to me, so much as that is possible. The reproduction system has enough inherent problems as it is without admitting those others into the mix. |
Nice, if not perhaps irrelevant, if we can detect it audibly. The drag of the stylus will also change depending on where it is on the vinyl. Ultimate TT would constantly adjust the speed to perfect. As soon as stylus is down and alter speed as stylus progresses. Or, we stream and forget vinyl. (No way, haha, love vinyl) |
bohe60s, You wrote, "Nice, if not perhaps irrelevant, if we can detect it audibly." Was that in reference to my post at 11:23 AM? If so, can you explain your meaning a little better? If you were referring to my post, perhaps you did not understand what I was saying. If one can detect speed irregularities (audibly, of course), then it is not irrelevant to eliminate same, so much as that is possible. But maybe that is not what you meant. |
Well of course there is drag, as you have two surfaces rubbing together. Physics. I performed (for fun) 8^0 - controlled experiments years ago and eliminated the tonearm cartridge element - I used two of the same tonearms and carts. Each turntable drive type Idler, DD, Belt - revealed to me significant differences in the way the music was presented and the way each specific table dealt with stylus drag. (the topic of this thread) Each drive type had a "failing factor" ......an Achilles heel was presented to me. The way each setup - (turntable, tonearm, cartridge) dealt with the records behavior, varying grooves, and position on the record in play; resulted in an overall "unique" sonic presentation. For those interested my findings can be found here https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4719 and scrolling down to the last - most recent post comment - Sept 28, 2019 Its a rewrite (with hindsight) for the past - Goldilocks and the Three Turntables. |
@jtimothya , thanks for those links. Definitely essential reading for anyone serious about vinyl. Love the clarity of Moncrieff piece in particular. As for the out of this world Monaco 2 speed stats, it's good to know that Technics don't have it all to themselves when it comes to speed accuracy. I can still remember the hullabaloo when Linn introduced their Lingo outboard power supply (1990). As an upgrade to their Valhalla built in board (1982), it was seen back then as the biggest upgrade in the history of the LP12. The Lingo itself was superceded by the Radikal (2009). Speed matters, and don't Linn know it. Linn of course have persisted with their rubber belts and a cult soin developed regarding which way around the belt should be fitted. Some critics sniggered that the reason why they clung so steadfastly to rubber belts was largely down to the cheap crappy AC motors that they used for decades... Anyway, that J. Peter Moncrieff's IAR article on The Rockport Sirius III is a classic of its kind and fully deserves to be better known. It's not the last word on turntables, and despite the fact that it's bound to incense a few it's worth 15 minutes or so reading for anyone interested in vinyl. http://www.iar-80.com/page12.html Perhaps Technics (orig Sony) claim of eliminating direct drive 'cogging' have finally turned the tide for good this time. |
@ct0517, just went back and read your above mentioned posting of your thoughts after you put the three tables to test and found your results very interesting, thanks for sharing that. In this world we live, nothing is perfect and we must recognize what those inperfections are and how to deal with them. Enjoy the music. |
@lewm- I’ve never, in the last(slightly over) four decades of listening to vinyl, experienced any loss of fidelity, to, "super-imposed alterations in pitch and timing due to stylus drag, belt creep, and the like." In the years prior; some had to be addressed(cheaper tables). I have perfect pitch. ie: I’ve always been able to accurately tune my guitar, without a tuning aid, etc. Thought that was normal, until a fellow musician pointed out it wasn’t. Were there anything, in any of those later analogue systems, that caused an actual, audible problem(wow, flutter, pitch anomalies); I’d have been the first to notice and would have corrected it. The reason I gave tooblue a +1, is my following the same speed adjustment procedure(done w/stylus in the groove). If you can hear the result of stylus drag, with a correctly adjusted table; that’s patently amazing. Belt creep/slippage is an equipment malfunction, that needs to be addressed, if present. Don’t have it, here. Thanks(for your concern). |
@atmasphere, nothing new under the sun, eh? Thanks. @rodman99999, good for you! I think the main point to bear in mind is that, as stated in the Moncrieff article, is that it’s not just pitch errors that are affected by speed irregularities - "In the past, most people have assumed that any speed errors in a turntable would be audible only as pitch errors, making the music sound off pitch or at worst slightly wobbly in pitch. But turntable speed errors also have other sonic consequences, which are far more pernicious. By playing the right amplitude at the wrong time, turntable speed errors create a distorted music waveform, even if the rest of your system were to be perfect. Indeed, as cartridges get better and better, becoming far cleaner and more accurate in tracking the amplitude half of the music waveform from the groove, and as the rest of our system chain continues to become at once cleaner and more revealing of everything (including not only the music but also distortions from our program sources), and become the last remaining hurdle of the state of the art." On the other hand I’m sure that beyond a certain point none of us can readily hear speed imperfections, especially not those quoted for the Monaco 2. I mean I know turntable speed matters, it matters a lot, but this is overkill, isn’t it? "The peak deviation from a perfect 33 1/3rpm rotational speed for the 2.0 is typically better than 0.0001% (1ppm) -- that’s actual platter motion, not a quartz-locked specification." 0.0001% ? That’s just another way of describing perfection as far as humans go. On the other hand companies like Linn and Rega to this day remain strangely quiet regarding data on the absolute speed accuracy of their (belt-driven) products. Doesn’t stop thousands from enjoying them though does it? |
Earlier; geoffkait asked, "Is this where low effective mass of the tonearm comes in?" Since 1980; I’ve been using low mass Magnepan arms and high compliance cartridges. Among the reasons I went that way, is the lower VTF at which many higher compliance carts can faithfully track. That translates into lower friction coefficient / less stylus drag. Currently; I’m using a high compliance Soundsmith cartridge, at just a hair over 1G. I’ve no doubt; that helps. I still miss my Sonus Gold-Blue! |
i owned the Rockport Sirius III turntable (subject of the Peter Moncreiff article) for 9 years (2002-2011). no doubt it did overcome stylus drag. then i acquired the Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive tt, which briefly sat next to the Rockport and i heard the same thing (no stylus drag). but stylus drag is not everything. there is also something called 'steady state speed'. absolute servo corrected speed i think might be not quite as significant as steady state speed. our ears seem to be very sensitive to the speed being steady. recently i added a Saskia model two idler turntable to my system, which sits along side my direct drive NVS. i've switched cartridges and arms from one to the other these last couple of months. the Saskia is not just another idler. it weighs 250 pounds, has a Pabst 3 phase motor, and very heavy platter. the Saskia has no servo loop for speed. it sets the speed and then maintains it. inertia and the leverage of the idler wheel keep things steady. as a result there is a solidity and flow that is undeniable. the tonal density must be heard to be believed. zero stylus drag + absolute steady speed. i had heard the Saskia at shows back a few years and was always very impressed, although the systems it was in were unfamiliar and different than mine. so i thought i knew what it might do, but it was a stab in the dark. i just love what i'm hearing so far. every day of listening to the Saskia is a learning experience. i still enjoy my NVS direct drive too. they both have their strengths. stylus drag is a real issue. but servo correcting speed comes with a price too.....even at the very tip top of the food chain. |
On the other hand I’m sure that beyond a certain point none of us can readily hear speed imperfections, especially not those quoted for the Monaco 2. I mean I know turntable speed matters, it matters a lot, but this is overkill, isn’t it? No - definitely not overkill. The gains from stable accuracy are substantial. it’s all about time - the cartridge provides the amplitude of the musical signal but the time element - the frequency - of music comes from the turntable’s rotation, ideally at 33-1/3 rpm. It’s not a question of what you hear when speed is off, it’s what you hear when speed is both stable and accurate. Wow and flutter are unmeasureable with the Monaco and a few other advanced direct-drive tables (eg NVS). We’re well beyond old standards. Any aspect of reproduced music related to time - depth, soundstage, transients, dynamics, tonality, etc. - is better or worse thanks to timing in the creation of the original signal. And no amount of downstream electronic wonderfulness can ’fix’ that signal if the turntable rotation is not accurate. These are not just technical considerations, but tangibly audible results. Perhaps Technics (orig Sony) claim of eliminating direct drive 'cogging' have finally turned the tide for good this time. Use of spotless motors does this. Equally important is the drive system that controls them. |
@uberwaltz- Yeah; they were kinda special and now, pretty much unobtainium(popular and rare does that). Had I known then: I woulda/shoulda/coulda had mine retipped and kept it. That’s one of very few components, that I’ve sold and wish I hadn’t. Perhaps: thinking about selling his Sonus, pushed that member, "off the face....."? Still, I’ve had some very nice, high compliance MCs, since. My Soundsmith is no slouch, either. They’ve all helped me to address/minimize stylus drag, at the source(to me: better than Band-Aids). |
noromance, you can say it was me. If you read jtimothya's link you will see idler wheel drives are dismissed out of hand. Then there is a long winded dissertation on the pitfalls of belt drive. What he says is technically true and I am sure he thinks he can hear these anomalies. His and noromance's hearing is obviously better than mine. But he conveniently leaves out the opposite. The platter also dampens the motor. In an idler wheel drive the connection is more direct. The mass of the platter dampens the power surges of the motor. Partially and even totally diminishing the cogwheel effect. In a belt drive things get more complicated. Kuzma solves the issue by using a heavy platter and a very stiff belt which again dampens the motor. But, is motor cogging really an issue. I suppose it depends on the motor. Another issue this author seems to ignore. Some motors hardly cog at all. This author's view of suspended turntables is interesting. Yes, if the suspension were continuously bouncing it might induce speed changes. I suppose I jump up and down in front of the turntable while I am listening to music just to watch it bounce. It is at absolute rest 99.9% of the time. I will gladly accept minor speed variation versus my tonearm hopping across the record when someone walks into the room. Anyway, the problem with idler wheel drive turntables is noise more so than speed variation. I think the Grand Prix turntable is very cool and I would love to hear one in action. The fact that friction slows the turntable down a little should not surprise anyone. Some tables now will maintain a constant speed/pitch regardless of load within reason. A good idea given with modern motors and electronics it should be easy to do. The Monaco certainly does this at high resolution. But is the motor well shielded. Having your cartridge floating above an oscillating magnetic device is counter intuitive. |
Mike, you need to get rid of both the Wave Kinetics and Saskia. Get yourself one of those Monaco 2.0 tables and put a Gabon Ebony Durand arm on it. The Gabon Ebony has seriously better timbre than the rosewood and has much lower stylus drag. And here I am stuck with this crappy Clearaudio Statement. But don't worry. I just ordered a Basis Work of Art. I can put the Statement in my Summer home in the Catskills. |
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"Any aspect of reproduced music related to time - depth, soundstage, transients, dynamics, tonality, etc. - is better or worse thanks to timing in the creation of the original signal. And no amount of downstream electronic wonderfulness can ’fix’ that signal if the turntable rotation is not accurate. These are not just technical considerations, but tangibly audible results."Without those aspects, to me; there can be no simulacrum of any musical event and simple boredom, the result(again: to me). Of course: ALL aspects of reproducing(or creating) music well, are dependent on accuracy, regarding time/timing. |
Mike, you need to get rid of both the Wave Kinetics and Saskia. Get yourself one of those Monaco 2.0 tables and put a Gabon Ebony Durand arm on it. The Gabon Ebony has seriously better timbre than the rosewood and has much lower stylus drag. And here I am stuck with this crappy Clearaudio Statement. But don’t worry. I just ordered a Basis Work of Art. I can put the Statement in my Summer home in the Catskillsi had a Monaco 1.0 with a Dynavector arm in my system for a year back 10 years ago. very ’meh’ to my ears and far prefer the NVS to that. haven’t read Mr. Gregory’s review of the 2.0, but as far as timbre i think the Saskia is quite the king of that. neither of my tt’s are going anywhere. ’if’ i was acquiring another tt, it would be a belt drive of some sort. i already have what i consider top echelon direct drive and idler examples. sorry, but not up to speed on what a Gabon Ebony Durand might be? please point me in the right direction and i’ll get informed. i’ve owned 4 different Durand tonearms and also own his record weight. i’ve owned 3 separate wood arm wand Durand arms, and have a wood arm Durand Telos on my NVS now with a Miyajima Premium Be Mono cartridge on it. sweet sounding arm. i guess i could ask Joel directly about the Gabon Ebony, he is a local friend of mine. he was here in my room two weeks ago tweaking my Durand Tosca tone arm and listening to the Saskia. |
Off-topic: Hi, Mike! Good to hear from you. I have only one further comment: It is not valid to lump all servo speed correction mechanisms as if they were all the same. Technics was dominant in the DD industry, and they espoused powerful iron core motors driving heavy platters (if we limit ourselves to the SP10 series) and very frequent speed correcting. But other manufacturers, e.g., Kenwood in the L07D, settled on using less powerful coreless motors, to minimize or eliminate cogging, and a comparatively laissez faire approach to servo correction, which means that corrections are fewer and less frequently made. This to my ears resulted in the L07D sounding a tad more "musical" than an unmodified SP10 Mk3. Applying the Krebs mods and now the chip made by JP Jones have made my Mk3 sound a lot better. So, just to say that those designers of the 70s were well aware of trade-offs related to servo control. In keeping with Mike's critique of the Monaco, I had wondered what became of that product given the initial ballyhoo. One problem with it, in my mind anyway, might be its relatively low mass. When speed corrections are made, there is an equal and opposite force generated at the platter such that the chassis "wants" to turn in the opposite direction from the platter. I think you need mass to overcome that manifestation of Newton's 3rd Law. |
Pardon me, but can we let this cogging thing go with respect to synchronous motors? Because its totally not a thing. Synchronous motors (seen in idler drives and some belt drive machines) are locked to the line frequency and don't really have power surges or the like regardless of line voltage. Idler drives can work just fine if the turntable is designed fairly well. This is why some older vintage designs have a following- Lenco and Thorens (TD124) in particular. If you look at the best of the vintage 'tables that have a modern following you will see one thing that they all have in common- a robust drive. This is true of belt drive machines- like the Empires, and direct drive machines like the Technics SP10, in particular the SP-1 MkIII which has so much torque its suitable for LP mastering lathe use. I will gladly accept minor speed variation versus my tonearm hopping across the record when someone walks into the room.@mijostyn This can be solved with a proper stand. I have a custom Sound Anchors stand but what really did the job was placing the stand on a set of bearings which relieve side to side pressures caused by foot falls. I lived in an older house and this was a very effective solution to that problem! Sorry for the Off Topic bit... |
Halcro. Thanks for posting the videos. I have seen tests like this before and the thing which startles is how quickly the platter slows down. All due to the drag induced by a tiny diamond thrashing about in a plastic groove. Others have said that a high moment of inertia platter will save the day. Don't know what the inertia figure for the Raven is but the platter itself does look substantial, so it is reasonable to assume that it isn't a feather weight. A high inertia platter simply changes the time constant for a given motor torque. Sure, its deceleration rate will be slower but it will also take longer to recover. There doesn't seem to be any free lunch here. Also agree totally with atmasphere. "a robust drive" is a common thread through most of the collectable vintage TTs |
Wouldn't setting the speed with the arm lowered be, at best, a compromise? What record do you choose? Surely the stylus drag is modulation dependant, so if you choose to set the speed at a 'medium modulation' level record, the platter will run fast some of the time and slow some of the time. This, purely dependant on what is going on with the music. Add in the radius where you lowered the arm and it becomes a lottery. |
Ralph, In my understanding, cogging and synchronicity are two different things. Cogging is a function of the number of poles; the rotor experiences a regularly irregular rotational force due to the naturally varying intensity of the magnetic fields produced by the stator. The rotor is therefore constantly inconstant in its speed. There is a regularity to it that is said to be audible to some, and that's "cogging". The tendency can be ameliorated by using a stator with a lot of poles, the more the better. Coreless motors may do away with the issue altogether. (No matter how much I search on that last topic, I have never found a satisfactory treatise on the subject of coreless motors vis a vis cogging, but most talk about coreless motors as if they are free of it.) On the other hand, an AC synchronous motor does lock onto the line frequency, and this can keep the speed steady, absent drag, etc. But an AC synchronous motor could still exhibit cogging, if it is poorly designed with an inadequate number of poles. Maybe Richard can comment on my thoughts. |
Hi Richard, I hoped you would see this Thread...😃 the thing which startles is how quickly the platter slows down. All due to the drag induced by a tiny diamond thrashing about in a plastic groove.I first saw this demonstrated on a Transrotor FatBob Turntable which has an even heavier platter than the Raven, and the 'slowdown' was even more dramatic and faster. I like you....was similarly 'startled' 🤯 I agree totally with your 'conundrum' about which record to choose to set speed with the stylus playing...? Apart from massed symphonic performances with both highly and lightly modulated passages....I think that Rodman's insightful and practical habit will work well. RAVEN AC-2 TT vs TIMELINE The question is.....how audible is this phenomenon in the 'real world'? I can still happily listen to the Raven in my system although I can hear the differences in presentation on the Victors with complex orchestral works. The Raven has a slightly more 'relaxed' sound and whilst we know from reading Peter Moncrieff's treatise.....the effects of 'Stylus Drag' are 'distortions' of the musical waveform.....there are many many more distortions (from cartridges, tonearms, headshells, turntables, speakers etc) that probably have greater consequences. Whilst all this sounds 'gloomy' for those outside the vinyl/analogue 'True-Believers Brethren'.....none of it stops vinyl from sounding infinitely better than digital 😝👍 |