Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?

Yes, the software is all over the place. More luck than brains but when I first met my wife I had Magnepan Tympani's. Anything is an improvement after those. My kids having grown up with this stuff are certainly music lovers but it does seem like high end Hi Fi's are lower on their list of priorities.

^^
When I cut the power to the motor you can hear the internal gears still working, winding down slowly - as the string is still attached to the pulley it keeps turning the platter.
32.5 seconds. just tried it.  Now  I don't feel like cutting the string right now 8^0.  take my word on the shorter duration.  
oh and I can cut the power for a couple seconds, turn it on again and the music doesn't miss a beat to the listener, like flicking the string. 
From the moment I heard this table in 101 set up at the beginning with the first record - I knew I was done. End of the road. Same goes for my tonearm. That was many years ago. I do still enjoy talking tech and helping others get set up through the winter months. Good luck on your new turntable. 

My fraternal twins love music and they know all the music I love - but millennial's get I would say 60-70% of the satisfaction with their portable systems. They are happy with that. I don't see any wanting to set up a system that is not portable.  I am thinking of starting a thread.

"The Audiophile's Equipment Burden on the Family"  and  "Strategies to Deal with the Burden"

I thought for myself the gear was going to be the burden. Nope - its the records on two floors of our house. 

Cheers Chris 

Ct, I'm not going to step into that one. All I can say is you guys need to treat your doctors better so the good ones stop coming down here.
You are saying that when you cut the string it takes less time for the platter to come to a stop. That does not make sense to me. The magnets don't change in any way and you are releasing it from the drag of the motor yet it takes 1/4 of the time to stop? 

My daughter is a heavy music lover. She sang opera in collage. She is not an audiophile. Her fiance might be. He certainly gets big smiles listening to the rig. 
As for the CS, it should be less expensive depending on import fees and shipping although I could have them bring it back on their flight it still has to make it through customs. There are ways though to lighten the load so to speak....if she can get one. I'll put my 4 point 14 in the second position. It is my Koetsu arm. The platter weights 27 Kg! That is 60 lb and it is stainless steel with is non magnetic and a great shield. I'll have to have a dust cover made for it. Another paltry $300.00
Good luck with the grand kids. Maybe you need to give your son in law lessons?? 

Mike

Mike, my daughter will be living in Shanghai for a year. She is going to look into getting the CS Port turntable. It should be much less. Rock and Roll!

Rock and Roll indeed!

wow! congrats on having a daughter that (1) can buy a turntable like that, and (2) wants to buy a turntable like that.....and of course (3) gets to spend a year in Shanghai. exciting place, never been myself.

don’t think CS Port has mainland China distribution yet, but Japan is close. good luck on the price part....less.....but maybe not 'much' less.

my daughter likes music, but is not audiophile or vinyl lover. my expectations are more minimal. i just wish her and her husband (married 10+ years) would give me a grandkid or three. i could spend time with them and not buy so much hifi gear.

mijostyn - I want to thank you very much for the CD mention on an audio site - it gave me a chuckle .
I need some chuckles you know after the Canadian federal election results.8^(

Just a forum misunderstanding that's all in this case on the term braking action. You may use the term damping if you like. To slow down implies braking as far as I am concerned.  
   
As you know take two fridge magnets - same poles facing each other - just try to make them come together and stay together - 8^0
oh....if someone is successful at this,  please let Geoffkait know.
   
Now picture two very nicely isolated magnetic circles - one positioned above the other. Same poles facing one another. The top one is attached to the bottom of the platter and it rotates only.
the force between them causes levitation and the damping / braking action. The platter will support an 8 kilogram center weight - if one were inclined.
Now  
with the string engaged, motor pulley and platter, if I turn the motor off, things wind down slowly and the platter takes about 20 seconds to come to a dead stop.
If I instead cut the string with scissors - the platter stops in a much shorter time - 1/4 the time from what I remember - due to the damping braking force between the magnets.  

Ct0517, Sorry for miss spelling your name. I have reviewed the design of the Verdier. It has a 16 kg platter with a reverse spindle supported by opposing magnets, belt or string drive. If the magnets are oriented correctly they should have no braking action. The reason to use opposing magnets is to lower friction and hence noise. I personally like the air bearing concept better as I am allergic to magnets near cartridges but that is me. Now, you have a very massive platter. With mass goes inertia. It does not like to move and it does not like to stop moving. In a frictionless, airless environment it would continue spinning indefinitely.
The mass of the rotor in your motor is an order of magnitude smaller. It is much easier to move and easier to stop moving. Once the turntable reaches a steady state speed it requires very little input to keep that speed going, whatever it takes to overcome friction and air resistance. 
At this point the platter is really in control of the motor. Because of the relative difference in mass the platter will smooth out any irregularities in the motor. If the motor is cogging you would never be able to detect that at the platter with any instrumentation including your ears. Could you ever detect any motor noise coming down the string and infecting the platter?
That would be like a VW bug trying to tow a beached aircraft carrier. Sitting on the deck sipping a pina colada you would never even know the VW was there. Now the stretchier the string the lower any resonant frequency in the drive system would be. The Carbon Kevlar string would have a much higher resonance frequency but it does not matter because it is totally dampened by the mass of the platter. This is why Rolls Royce goes out of it's way to make the most massive cars on the planet. They ride smoother. 
Ct0517 I can not argue with your ears. You do whatever you think makes your system sound better. The only reason a stiff string transfers the force of your finger flicking it is because it is stiffer.  Your motor does not apply force that way. A stretchier belt will transfer just as much noise but at a lower frequency. In your example you can't hear it because the frequency is down below what most systems can reproduce. Hook up an oscilloscope and you will see it.  
Mike, my daughter will be living in Shanghai for a year. She is going to look into getting the CS Port turntable. It should be much less. Rock and Roll!

The belt string thing has been talked about for decades.  I would bet the guys who played with various strings belts and tape, ended up with tape.  Tape being the biggest pain.  If I had to sell to general public,  tape would be my last choice.

For the self proclaimed thinkers,  3 obvious reasons for sound difference could be stretch , sound transfer, and traction.  I am in traction camp, making the most difference.

My suggestion for anyone serious about getting what ever sound they are looking for, try the various choices above.  If you have a expensive belt drive have a machine shop make you some pulleys.  Read thru past literature and you off to the races.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

Mike, smart man. I like to theorize which sometimes gets me into trouble but I am in the camp that says "everything has a reason, cause and effect." Plus, a lot of stuff we wind up buying before we can really evaluate it like ski boots. So, you look at design and construction intelligently and pray you made the right choice. Now I have to look at what cd say in response. Off the top I would say a very stiff string would do much better than a stretchy one. In reality I would bet no one would be able to hear the difference unless the string were really stretchy (same problem as a really stretchy belt.)
Cd, I have to go look at the design of your turntable. Be back later today.

Appreciate the comments Mike.
Mijostyn - Let me try to explain this better.
It’s not the string itself that has a "sound". Its how the "material used" is handled by the very small motor pulley, and how the string handles the platter - that produces the presentation.

One can use different string materials, with different compliance’s. One can also change the force with which the string is wrapped between the motor pulley and platter. Both ways produced different results. And whichever works best depends on the turntable design objective. The tighter the wrap, the more the motor performance influences the platter performance. The looser wrap puts less motor influence in play. My target is to give the motor the least amount of motor influence due to its Platter design - more on this in a minute. .

So my string is applied loose - so loose that I can flick the string between the motor and platter and a listener can not hear any stability issue. The motors influence is so little on the platter design, that if I change the pitch / speed, the change takes maybe 5 seconds or more to register to the ear.

The platter design is unlike most in that it is not free spinning - the opposite forces generated from the magnets produce a braking action, which from conversing directly with Mr. Verdier (when he was alive), helps to deal with the records erratic behavior due to the large and small groove modulations. It needs only occasional shots from the motor to keep at speed and overcome stylus drag. Note; A turntable with a free spinning platter would need significantly more motor control. This would change the requirement for the type of string that will be used also . make sense ?

Now if I set the string tension tighter - the same flick of the string will cause audible results because the motor influence has much greater control. This IMO was not how the motor was designed to be used with this turntable (tight), especially by those who bypass the string and use belt. This is also why I feel those that have modified their La Platine Verdiers with different motors - have gone that route. They were too tight, and the genius in the design of his Platter System - was not taken advantage of.

i use the information at hand.

when i observe the depth of ct's experiences in his system link it's clear he has spent lots of time on the thread issue. i know from my time studying the AS-2000 when i had it on order that the whole drive thread question is not anything black and white. so i think my answer is the only reasonable way to respond considering i have zero first hand experience.. i'm leaving the possibility that the CS Port view of using the Kevlar might be the one true way, but that more likely it's not certain.

i'm in 'learn' mode here on this issue. it's not being nice, just knowing what i don't know.

Mike, so you are a political animal after all. 
ct0517, A,B and C are gross assumptions that are probably more often then not incorrect. The ceramic brakes on my car look better, last way longer and stop way better than steel brakes. The magnetic bearing in clearaudio tables performs and lasts longer than standard bearings. The Nikasil liners in my engine work better and last way longer than other cylinder liners. Why would a Koetsu not last as long as a Sumiko or an Air Tight not as long as a Kiseki. Why would a SAT arm not last as long as a Jelco. I could go on forever. 
Now I have never used a string table but my meager brain can not fathom why any other string would sound better than the kevlar one CS uses on a platter that weights more than my car. They admit to the fact that it is a very slow starting table that would occur with any string. Carbon Kevlar will not stretch which I can see as a huge advantage in this instance. 

i agree with your views up to a point. it is possible that one choice is actually better or best all around, and not just a different set of compromises. but more likely it's as you put it.

were i to go down the string drive, heavy platter road, no doubt i would have to become conversant in these 'voicing' string drive material choices.

mikelavigne
feedback from CS Port LFT1 users i’ve spoken to is that the Kevlar string works exceedingly well. directly compared to a number of tt’s, belt, idler and direct drive.

i’ve not heard it personally. and have never owned a ’string drive’ high mass platter turntable myself. so i don’t have any personal opinion on the kevlar choice. OTOH this part of the turntable is the least costly and easiest to experiment with.

i would expect that CS Port has their good reasons to use kevlar.

IMO
When a manufacturer of a product builds something - anything - there is a scale. Put simply to make a point here. It has been my experience as a consultant working in multiple industries.

A-----------B-------------C

A - represents the best performance but usually not lasting as long. Short Life.
B - represents middle of the road - good performance - lasts a good time.
C - represents - durability longest lasting - performance not as good as A and B.

Now depending on the field, A or B or C could be the best solution. Where do you think the Audiophilia field fits ?    Well it depends of course. 
   
Where does Kevlar string fit for this particular TT. I don't know the TT. I don't know the answer. 
 
I do know that Kevlar has 1) durability, and 2) is good for marketing. It seems to have impressed mijostyn based on his response. A regular person will say "Hey they make Bullet Proof Vests out of Kevlar". An audiophile might say - "Hey doesn't B&W use Kevlar in their drivers ?"

3) It is slippery more so than other examples tried. Now think slippery, and a big heavy platter, and the force required of the string around the platter, that will be needed to turn it - and this will depend entirely on the motor design. So each string drive design is unique on its own. More variables !

*******************************************************

Look, I own authentic Verdier string that came with my turntable. I did give it a good go. I don't use it anymore for a number of reasons. Its doesn't make my TT perform/sound as good as it can. and 2) maybe more important - does not allow me to set up my TT in a fashion that allows for this best performance. Now most people are just happy with the basic 101 setup, and leave it at that. Some even change the pulley and use a belt (sacrilege...)  JC Verdier RIP - rolls in his grave each time this happens.   
    

I’ve not heard it personally. and have never owned a ’string drive’ high mass platter turntable myself. so i don’t have any personal opinion on the kevlar choice. OTOH this part of the turntable is the least costly and easiest to experiment with.

Changing out the string, and the (length)..... if the design allows, is sonically like changing out power tubes - EL34, KT66, KT88, etc... just as one quick example. You will get a leaner, thicker, bloatier, quicker, slower, etc.... performance / presentation with different strings/threads.

On the 2nd part of your paragraph - this is a good thing if you own a cat / feline.... 

feedback from CS Port LFT1 users i’ve spoken to is that the Kevlar string works exceedingly well. directly compared to a number of tt’s, belt, idler and direct drive.

i’ve not heard it personally. and have never owned a ’string drive’ high mass platter turntable myself. so i don’t have any personal opinion on the kevlar choice. OTOH this part of the turntable is the least costly and easiest to experiment with.

i would expect that CS Port has their good reasons to use kevlar.

mijostyn
The platter is massive, driven by a Kevlar string!

mijostyn
Kevlar would not be my choice of material to use on a string drive designed turntable.

"been there done that"

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4CeXnpSNXhk3fKKv6

Kevlar has strength, but is far, IMO from the best sounding. The best designed String Drive tables (again IMO) are very delicate ? (for lack of a better word) with the STRING - allowing the audiophile owner to use the most DELICATE of strings/threads. Very audible differences.

Now you want to talk about an Audiophile Rabbit Hole.

Opportunities await the Audiophile at Fabric land for the String Design.

CS Port LFT1 is not distributed in the Western Hemisphere as of right now.

in the UK it’s 47k Pounds Sterling....including the linear tracking arm. i think that includes the VAT. then the granite base is a few thousand more.

so equivalent to around $55k to $60k USD if offered here.....maybe into the mid 60k USD range. distributors tend to set their own prices.

Boy, that CS Port LFT-1 is one handsome turntable. I seriously doubt stylus drag is going to be a problem for it. The platter is massive, driven by a Kevlar string! Granite base. Wonder what it goes for. Any guesses? 

Stay the course....8^0
This thread is about Stylus Drag.
I said earlier based on my personal experiences, Stylus drag effect is based on the type 1) type of turntable, 2) the type of tonearm used, and 3) the type of cartridge/stylus. The turntable rabbit hole has been explored.......

So.....

Has anyone done a drag measurement for different stylus types.
Should be easy if you own a belt drive.
  
Count the revolutions for a set period of time without the stylus engaged.
Then try the different stylus types, and repeat.

https://www.vinylengine.com/images/forum/stylus_shapes/stylustypes.jpg

Conical, one would assume? - should have the least drag in the groove - least surface contact ?

Curious to findings

mikelavigne, you ever listen to JC-1’s in your system? Maybe just a slightly better value many of us can afford.

i’ve met John Curl a few times, and had his CTC Blowtorch preamp design in my room for a few days once when my friend, the dear departed Bob Trump (who also was involved in the JC-1), visited me. but only heard the JC-1 amps at shows, never in my own system. a real giant killer for sure.

you could do a lots worse for 4x the dollars. agree it is one of the better modestly priced amplifiers ever and could handle most speaker loads easily. i have zero negative things to say about it.

maybe the best of the current crop of class D amps might compete on dollar value. but i’ve not really paid close attention to those products to know. not been in the market for an amplifier for a long time.

ok; i started a separate thread on active isolation; with a few basics and some reference to it's use in my system. happy to get as deep as you want on the subject there. and hopefully allow specific turntable related things to continue here unabated.

http://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/active-isolation-what-can-it-do-for-music-reproduction/post?postid=1819746#1819746

@mikelavigne, the classic red and yellow 'Iron Man' look of the darTZeel 108 is surely a matter of taste. I think that the looks are impressive and must play some psychological role in the appreciation of it's sound.

Others may find it rather out of place gaudy and distracting for an amp which still fetches near $10k used.

@mijostyn, no but it would be interesting to see what would happen if a solid state was disguised as a tube and vice versa. Would the usual perceived differences still hold true? Would they?

Anyway I think it's fair to say that speed is critical when it comes to high level turntable playback. Just look at how many purely speed based revisions the Linn LP12 has had during its tenure since 1972. Each one from the Valhalla board to the Lingo to the Radikal promising a substantial sonic improvement. Each one constrained by the pliant rubber belt, each one still rather vague about numbers and specs to back up the promises.

The soft blurring introduced by borderline undetectable speed anomalies (by ear alone) doesn't bother me too much as it's appears to enhance the 'analogue' feel of the playback. Ultimately though it's always up to the listener to determine just how much accuracy they need. 

Mike (we're all on a first name basis, right? ;-), I would love to hear your findings in regard to active isolation. I saw and heard a Herzan (under Audiogon member folkfreak's EAR-Yoshino table), and am sold on extreme degrees of isolation. Not many have a Herzan, or even a Minus-K passive platform; a dedicated thread would be great---Eric.

i'm happy to talk more about my system (or my experiences) on a separate thread or my system thread. or not. but not here. with all due respect. and i'm happy to continue our dialog if you want to.

cd31, problem is you couldn't match the smell.

Not a free fall. Interesting. I'm all ears. Active isolation? I thought a concrete foundation was pretty isolated, unless you live in California on the fault line. Tell me it's your wife that liked the look:)

mikelavigne, you ever listen to JC-1's in your system? Maybe just a slightly better value many of us can afford. 

That’s also true of most of us here, isn’t it?

i suppose it depends on your definition of ’here’.

on an analog oriented thread like this one, i’d say most have, or prefer, tubes or a tube like presentation. otherwise in general maybe a bit different. just my 2 cents.

i do think that darTZeel solid state does get as close to the positive attributes of tubes as any solid state. and avoids the worst of solid state similarly. even though it's got that red and gold 'ironman' look.

@mikelavigne , "basically i’m a tube guy who owns solid state."

That's also true of most of us here, isn't it?

I just wish someone would put out a solid state amp in tube disguise. They say looks aren't everything, but they're certainly something.

ok, since we are in a free fall anyway here we go......

back in the day (in spring 2001) i had borrowed Atma-Sphere MA2 Mk (something or other, i’m sure Ralph will jump in to clarify). had them in my system for a couple of weeks, and was about to order a pair. very impressed other than my wife thought they were ugly. then the friend who loaned me the MA2’s called me to tell me about some other tube amps he had, the 75 watt Tenor OTL’s. i went to listen to those and preferred them to the MA2’s. the Tenor was just better to my ears. more fleshed out and natural sounding....with a magical mid range transparency and sparkle, even though it had quite a bit less power. so i went with the Tenors.

three years later, after a number of Tenor OTL explosive events, i had the opportunity to try this new solid state stereo amp, the darTZeel 108. here was a solid state amp that did not sound solid state, it had that breath of life of tubes, but the low noise floor of solid state. i loved it.

i still love it. i’ve had some pretty awesome tube amps in my system to run against the big darts. the big darts are still here. (if i ever stop buying turntables, arms and cartridges i will upgrade my 7 year old 458’s to the new 468.....but not yet).

my reference sound now 18 years later is still that Tenor OTL. and the darts deliver it....and much more.

and you have every right to your opinion on the look of the darTZeels. opinions are free.

a note about Atma-Sphere; no one takes better care of customers than Atma-Sphere, and i love the sound of their amps. and Ralph is a great guy and very helpful on the forums. i just don’t happen to own them. i’ve highly recommended them to many over the years.

basically i’m a tube guy who owns solid state.

much respect for your amp install approach, but a useful discussion of the details of active isolation is too deep for a brief comment. it's a big subject. maybe another day?

jtimothya, I am going to do that tomorrow! I will take an Air Force 1 with a 4 point 11 and an SME 30/12 with a 4 point 11 both with PC-1 Supreme's 
and make that comparison. I already have the 30/12. mikelavigne will lend me the other $150,000 and you can come tell us which one you like better. Graham Engineering is right down the road.
You might notice that the rags do this type of comparison all the time. The problem for all these audio aficionados is that if I do this study correctly, double blinded nobody would be able to reliably tell the difference between the two except for jtimothya of course. The major attraction to turntables is mechanical. They are cool devices and we all have our perspective on what cool is. You take for instance a Hurican, a 488 and a 720s. Three very competent sports cars all around the same price. All are in the same performance envelope, All three have their champions who will swear their car is the best.....actually it is the best looking to them because that is where the real difference lies. Me, I'll take the 720s any day. mikelavigne is a financial wizard so he would take the 488 for it's resale value. jtimothya wants to be as cool as possible so he would take the Hurican. That is what turntables are. 
Mikelavigne, that is what all of us long term audiophiles do. We evolve our systems over time always attempting to improve performance. You are just able to do it at a higher price point. Very few of us are going to be able to jump for DZ NHB-458's  or have you gone to the 468's? Now personally I would never even listen to an amp like that. I think it is the silliest looking amplifier ever made. I would go for the Atma-Sphere MA-3.
All go and no show until you take a look inside, all beautifully hand wired point to point. You can see where the money went. Oh, and I do not have to put my amps on seismic platforms, they are under the speakers in the room below on a shelf near the ceiling attached to a concrete wall. The speaker cables are 32" long. Each amp has it's own 20 amp service:)

Mike 

Electron microscope video of stylus tracking the groove,

https://youtu.be/GuCdsyCWmt8

Now in regard to turntables, speed inaccuracies, wow and flutter only affect two things in music, pitch and tempo. Now since the vast majority of us are pitch and tempo stupid the very minor variations seen in high performance turntable is totally inaudible.  if you hear a difference between two high performance tables it has nothing to do with speed inaccuracies. Different cartridges, arms, cables, setups maybe but not speed inaccuracies.

In not all but in some respects I don't think what we each are saying is all that far apart. The ability to detect timing differences is a necessary condition for assessing tempo;  the ability to hear frequency differences is likewise a prerequisite for gauging pitch.

I assume you believe you're making a deductive argument. Validity is one thing, the truth value of premises and conclusions is something else.  Saying something like " the vast majority of us are pitch and tempo stupid"  is silly.

The only thing I can think of to explain the main quoted comments above is perhaps there is not enough experience yet with high performance tables and their comparison.  I write this so others interested in a purchase and who consider evaluating their choices understand that the two most critical physical/technical  factors for a table are stable speed accuracy and low noise. 

The Ideal evaluation of two tables is to have the only difference in a comparison be the tables themselves.  Same cartridge, same tonearm, cables, entire rest of the systems and room are identical.  Critical sonic evaluation between tables is possible with a playing field level.

Under such conditions it is easy to hear differences in stable speed accuracy and noise in terms of listening to music.  Granted it is unusual to read about such a comparison, but that is exactly what is found in coverage of the Monaco 2.0 from two years ago.  Here were two similar tables but with clear physical differences, both having highly stable accurate speed measurements with one set of measurements much better than the other and likewise clearly different sonic differences.  Fwiw, per the standard DIN measurement, wow & flutter were unmeasureable. 

Mikelevigne, I am truly jealous. I which I had as much money as you have to spend on Hi Fi equipment.

hard to know how to react to that. might be a compliment, or something else.

i would only say that it’s taken me many years to assemble my system and most of the pieces have been resident for almost a decade. i’m not a rich guy, just relentless, and old enough for that to matter.

and when i built my room and first moved into it 15 years ago i had expensive gear, but the room sounded like crap. over another 10 years it was not much better. then after learning and making many mistakes i did figure out how to get the room to work. and getting the room to work was almost free in terms of dollars, although it took literally 9 months of constant effort to complete (details on the my system page comments down 10 or so posts if you are interested).

finally my expensive gear could really work properly. and likely a few levels less gear would be quite effective.....as well.

my point being that throwing money at it is not what works. working at it is what works. we can all do that. i feel better about the system/room tuning progress i’ve made than having shiny toys. not that i don’t like my toys. i certainly do. and work 6 days a week for many years to have them.

hope that does not come off as too defensive, but felt i needed to respond.

I have not run from lions but I can hear pitch variations like no tomorrow.   It is the variation that is the problem.   Weather the pitch is correct to a tuning fork or not is not that important.   But the band needs to tune to themselves.  Kind of blue ,Miles Davis album, is off speed by a mile.  But the whole band was off and the pitch did not vary.   Lots and lots of singers can not hold a note with stable pitch.  Not sure how many people can hear that?...


Enjoy the ride
Tom

jtimothya, let me explain it to you as carefully as I can. Unless you are a Martian you are bound by the same rules of human physiology the rest of us are. I shall state it again. Our brains are very sensitive to volume and phase. This information tells us where something is like that lion sneaking up behind us. Nature had no need for us to have perfect pitch and timing so without training the vast majority of us do not. How many drummers like Dave Weckyl do you know. Now try sitting down at a drum set and play like Dave. Right. Perfect pitch might even be rarer. Very few singers can hit a perfect middle C with accompaniment. 
Now in regard to turntables, speed inaccuracies, wow and flutter only affect two things in music, pitch and tempo. Now since the vast majority of us are pitch and tempo stupid the very minor variations seen in high performance turntable is totally inaudible. So, if you hear a difference between two high performance tables it has nothing to do with speed inaccuracies. Different cartridges, arms, cables, setups maybe but not speed inaccuracies. 
Lewm, you are so darn politically correct! 
Phoenix, thanx for your input as I only know the very superficial aspects of motors and motor control. The only suggestion I have for your position is that you forgot cannabis blood level. 
It is difficult to correlate opinions in terms of sound quality in regards to any piece of Hi FI equipment. Perception is personal. Nobody can see or hear exactly the same things you do without occupying your space. People do not have a very good understanding of how their psychological state at any given time can modify their behavior and perception. When you are happy you can bound up a flight of stairs two steps at a time but when you are unhappy every step is misery. Same heart, same muscles.
Perception also modifies behavior. Just watch what happens when a teenage boy sees his "girlfriend" kissing another boy. Fireworks. 
Those that argue that their perceptions a paramount without understanding their own weaknesses are at best difficult to listen to as are those that come up with wacky explanations to justify their mythology.
I love to learn ways to improve the performance of my system and I also love to try new stuff. Some of It I learned about here. But, I also like truth in advertising and like real explanations for why something should sound better not mindless hyperbole
Mikelevigne, I am truly jealous. I which I had as much money as you have to spend on Hi Fi equipment.   
 

lewm
As a (biological) scientist myself, I think that...

>>>>I’m sensing an big old Appeal to Authority coming up. 

Dear @mikelavigne  @phoenixengr :  """  measurements are important. and i do agree there is a relationship with turntable performance between measurements and performance. but no matter the measurements the final arbiter is our ears.  """

yes, that's true but depends the ears of who and I mean the expertise of those " ears ".
Trhough the years your " ears " were exposed to the best of the best audio systems other than your own " dream " system so the validity of your opinions are different of the validity of mines.

In the other side the ears of any one of us were exposed to live events in many different ways that made it that each one of us be biased in different way.
When I attend to live music events ( I do often. ) I like to seat at near field position, not always but around 75% of times and when I seated 5 rows back the experience is really different and if I go 10 rows back even more different.

Maybe that's why for me the attack/transient response is so critical and the reproduction in a home audio system tell me a lot of that system. I remember that you posted/told me that overcthe time your home seat position listening to your system " bit by bit " get closer/near fierld to the speakers and that's a good thing for me but normally people do not listen at nearfield position so are biased in different way and with different sound/music reproduction priorities.

All those is full of sujectivity more than objetivity/measurements. But as you said measurements are important.

A problem with measurements is that are not in precise way measuring what we " listen " to tell us why we are listening what we listening. This is very complicated to do it because in a scientific way/explanation everything we listen can be measured IF we know what and how measure it and till now I don't know any mathematic model that can do that. So we have to trust in our " challenged " ears and that's why the learning ladder of our ears is a very long one with " hundreds " of steps/treads.

In his first post to you Phoenic posted:

""" 
and makes you a hobbyist, not a designer   """

and that's what you posted in your wide explanation about: we are hobbyst/audiophiles and certainly not designers but the technical knowledge levels of gentlemans like Phoenix always are welcomed because is good road for all of us to stay growing-up.

R.

As a (biological) scientist myself, I think that "what we have here is a failure to communicate", to quote the chain gang boss in "Cool Hand Luke".  Motors and motor controller technology have their own jargon that tends to mystify those who have not been formally educated in the respective disciplines.  (I am reminded of some smart friends of mine who complained they did not understand even the title of one of my published papers, when they took it upon themselves to look it up.)  I sometimes feel as they did, when I read about motors and motor controllers, for example, one or two of your posts on this thread.  Moreover, I can grasp the meanings eventually by googling some of the more obscure terminology, but I tend to forget the fine points, in between discussions such as this.  Therefore, I have to be content with generalities drawn from your posts (Phoenix) and those of a very few others who really understand this stuff.  And then I have to take refuge in my own listening experiences.  Like you said, we each will hear differently.  ML is using state of the art turntables, in my opinion, so it doesn't really matter.  I readily believe his testimony.  By the same token, I really value your posts as a basis for my own further education in this area, Phoenix, and I would not like to see you leave this forum.  Keep stretching our knowledge base, by all means.

A couple of corrections:  I no longer sell audio components or make any money from designing them.  This is purely a hobby for me as I'm interested in the technology (for now).

The 5 or 10% of your post I responded to was the only relevant part of your rather declaratory statement;  the rest of your post had little or nothing to do with addressing your bold claim.  I did a direct copy and paste quote, so I'm not sure how I twisted it? 


Your last post does a much better job of explaining your position regarding the proper role of measurements vs listening.  Thanks for clarifying.

It's certainly not my intention to be inconsiderate towards others who may not fully understand the technology, quite to the contrary, my intention is to help educate.  If someone has questions, I'd invite them to ask or to do a google search (it's how I find a great deal of the information I seek).

I never understood this position.

especially if you take it out of context. and then twist it around.

this is a forum for listeners. my whole point, not the 5-10 percent you lifted, was that we have to listen to what these turntables do without preconceived notions about what we might expect. what does this tt actually do? and then i went on the relate what i heard from each turntable.

obviously i invested significant dollars to enjoy these turntables (supporting guys like you) partly because of my view of their technology and execution. i’m not blind to it. but there is a point where you listen objectively and let the music speak. i’m never going to be someone who has to first agree with and understand the technology and whether it fits what my engineering prof told me. others need this and i say knock yourself out with it.

but for me the technology only interests me only up to a point.

measurements are important. and i do agree there is a relationship with turntable performance between measurements and performance. but no matter the measurements the final arbiter is our ears. i want to know what people heard from their turntable. that is where the proof is.

i was one of the first ones to order the AS-2000 from David Karmeli that you were involved with, but i later changed my mind. i heard his AS-1000 at his home. sure, i appreciated the technical merits of it, but then cleared my mind to hear it on it’s own merits. it was awesome sounding for sure. what was significant to me was the other four turntables David had sitting there that i also heard and how the AS-1000 compared. not the tech.

i have read your posts here with genuine interest; of course at a particular point it goes completely over my head. i appreciate your participation on this thread. and i do care about the technology and especially observe the degrees of apparent execution of various turntables. but mostly i listen and follow my ears.

if you limit your customers to the ones who truly understand and can converse in the technology you work with that would seem to be a bit self destructing. but good luck with it. you might consider being more understanding of those who don't need to know everything.

"ignore the technology and measurements.

i did......or i do every day."

I never understood this position.  While the sound produced by a component might be the only thing that matters to some people, perception is highly subjective and dependent on many external factors (mood, daily hearing condition, type of music, room acoustics, blood alcohol content, etc.).  It is also personal to the individual and not easily or accurately reproducible or even communicated to others.

To ignore science and technology when designing audio components is wrought with peril, and makes you a hobbyist, not a designer.  Design decisions should be informed by established theory and practice, and the actual sonic results (and measurements) should confirm those choices and correlate with the design theories.  The more connections between the two realms (rules of correspondence), the more certain you can be that the sonic results are accurate and not due to some subjective factor, bias or confusion of the senses.

Measurements are used by manufacturers in their specifications and marketing materials to promote their products as "better" than the competition.  Verification of these measurements prevents mfrs from making outlandish or misleading statements about their products and serves to protect consumers.

yes we are very sensitive to timing but not in that way. We are sensitive to the time and volume differential between our ears. We are much more insensitive to pitch and tempo. Many musicians use various devices to tune their instruments and metronomes to set tempo.

Didn't think it needed saying, my account presumes listeners with two ears.

More insensitive (less sensitive) to pitch and tempo ... than what?  Time and volume differentials?  You mean frequency and amplitude differentials?  Pitch is simply ordering sounds on a scale - that scale is frequency. Tempo is pace or speed, impossible without time.  At the stylus groove interface, the cartridge provides amplitude, the table provides frequency.

The conductor is the orchestra's clock.

Thanx for the description lewm. I would really like to hear the Monaco table. I could do it if I sold one of my tables.
jtimothya, yes we are very sensitive to timing but not in that way. We are sensitive to the time and volume differential between our ears. We are much more insensitive to pitch and tempo. Many musicians use various devices to tune their instruments and metronomes to set tempo. 
Flutter is more audible than Wow. It is generally accepted that most of us can not here tempo and pitch variations less than 0.25%. Modern high performance turntables when new have wow and flutter levels less than 0.05% well inaudible by any of us. Relating values below this to some alteration in sound quality is difficult if not impossible. Then end result is that any body can say whatever they want. Which unfortunately means whatever anybody says is worthless without some form of scientific proof. 

Dear @jtimothya  :  """  Dynamic transients have more initial impact with a more speed accurate table - less blur at the launch edge. ""

Yes, that's one of the reasons about, other is that any kind of vibrations generated by the analog rig are better damped/controled.Transient accuracy and speed is where the sound of music strats followed by the developed harmonics. It's the " engine " of music reproduction in home.

@mikelavigne  said: """  the Saskia has amazing energy, images more holographic and astonishing tonal density. more weight and impact to the bass... """

that comes from that transient accuracy/speed and very good controled vibrations throug the analog rig.

In the other side I don't think that differences in betweeen the Saskia and NVS TTs been really high but only differences on some important characterisrtics of the performance that goes more with Mike priorities but this is only my " imagination " because ML is a true expert audiophile and music lover and he knows.

R.

Pursuant to mijostyn's concern about an "oscillating magnetic device" under his LOMC, I do believe in fact that in some designs one can hear an issue, faintly.  I have guessed that EMI from the motor may be in fact what some claim to be caused by "cogging".  Coreless motors are much less prone to generate this interference, based on my listening to several different brands and models in my own home system, but still, I am guessing.  If you read the L07D website, you will see that some have recommended adding some shielding under the platter to ameliorate a faint glaze with the L07D.  It's not actually a problem you can hear; it's more like a problem you did not know you had, until you eliminate it.  That was my experience when I added an extra bit of shielding between the motor and the underside of the platter on my L07D, per recommendations on the website.  Paradoxically, the L07D uses a coreless motor. It also comes with a thick stainless steel platter sheet, which I am guessing was meant to function as a shield.  The Technics SP10 Mk3, on the other hand, while it does have a massive iron core motor compared to others, has no issue I can hear.  Possibly because it already has a massive and thick platter assembly that does a good job also as a shield.  My old Mk2 definitely did have a kind of gray-ish coloration (two samples over 5 years or so in my home system) which could have been due either to EMI from the motor or from....  So, for any particular model of DD, there is either no problem or there is a simple and inexpensive solution to it. The trade-off in speed constancy is to my ears well worth it.
While we're at it, the Lenco idler design places a big motor under the platter as well. I guess the Garrard does to.  In any case, I hear no such issue with my much modified Lenco.  I would characterize its "sound" in much the same way as Mike L characterized the Saskia, albeit the Saskia is a Lenco on steroids and surely does everything better.

ignore the technology and measurements.

i did......or i do every day.

i purchased the Saskia idler to place next to my Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive. both toward to top of the heap for their types. i think my system allows each to flourish. maybe not every system is as flexible.

switching arms and cartridges back and forth it's obvious they are different in a good way, neither is wrong.

the NVS bigger and more organized in the sound stage. the stage edges get expanded. no limit to dynamics. very neutral tonally.

the Saskia has amazing energy, images more holographic and astonishing tonal density. more weight and impact to the bass and it digs deeper in flow and timbre.

both tt's are very good in the areas where the other is outstanding.....and different types of music are better served by each.

love them both.

@mijostyn

...it appears David Karmeli does not have a web site. I can find pictures of his tables but nothing on specs and design philosophy. It sure looks like he has out Kuzma’d Frank. That table looks darn massive. I understand it has an air bearing like the Walker? Nothing on price or how to order one. I have never been a fan of direct drive turntables. It seems to be the solution to a problem I do not have. None of my turntables have had speed variations bad enough that I could hear and that includes the LP 12.

Cost for the AS2000 is into 6-figures with a limited production run.

Gauging a table by audible wow & flutter and believing that not hearing speed variation means there are no problems is to miss out on what the best direct drives (or other high stable accuracy tables) have to offer.

Our ears are far more sensitive to time differences than we realize. Consider two transients, n seconds apart - what would n need to be for a listener to hear them merged as one, a single note? 20/1000th of a second? A string section having multiple performers are not, in virtue of their humanity, in perfect sync. That’s why one hears a harmonic shimmer when they play quickly together. Differentiation in arrival time correlates with perception of distance - exactly what we do in soundstage perception/creation - the timpani are behind the trombones. It’s an ancient skill. Dynamic transients have more initial impact with a more speed accurate table - less blur at the launch edge.

Stable accuracy brings significant sonic improvement to any aspect of music through vinyl playback that involves time or frequency. I urge you to hear for yourself if it makes a difference - listen to a better direct-drive side by side with the belt or idler of your choice.

@mijostyn- David hangs out on What’s Best Forum, you can contact him there.

He did an expose on the table in 2015 when it had an earlier motor controller:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-american-sound-turntable-beyonds-minimalist.18161/

One of the first customers with the new controller posted here:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/i-said-i-would-never-buy-another-turntable-argh.23947/

I'm not sure if I have any QRP records but I have quite a few RTI pressings and they are great, certainly up there with the best. 3-6 months behind? So much for the death of vinyl.
Phoenix, it appears David Karmeli does not have a web site. I can find pictures of his tables but nothing on specs and design philosophy. It sure looks like he has out Kuzma'd Frank. That table looks darn massive. I understand it has an air bearing like the Walker? Nothing on price or how to order one. I have never been a fan of direct drive turntables. It seems to be the solution to a problem I do not have. None of my turntables have had speed variations bad enough that I could hear and that includes the LP 12. I instinctively do not like the idea of an oscillating magnetic device under my low output moving coil cartridge. But I can not say that I can hear a problem with that either because I have never had a direct drive table in my system. It seems that most of the reviewers prefer belt driven tables. But then there are many more belt driven tables out there than direct or idler wheel drive.