Forgot to mention one of the most interesting changes in 48 hours with these Apprentice stands. The bass is much more powerful and forceful as compared to hour 2. More powerful and articulate than the Stillpoints. Again, the Stillpoints seem to give a softer, rounder bass.
The bass is so good with these Star Sound stands....but give it some time. It just shows up after some 36 hours or so and bam! Oh my....very nice indeed. Really it is just like that....boom there it is and the bass comes alive right before my ears. It happened just like that. Strange, but my experience. |
My speakers weight 125 pounds each. They are on a carpet and the carpet is over concrete. |
Bill, I did a similar comparison with the original Stillpoints and the apprentice stands under Intuitive Design Gamma Summits, and I my findings mirror yours. Better bass, focus, and ambient energy but maintaining an organic signature. The Stillpoints also had some midrange fizz or something that I did not completely care for. Hard to pin down.... |
Your feedback was spot on with questions I do not need to ask now, you were imformative and covered the sound of these stands quite well, however, what is the presatation like?, Is it roll A, D, G, J????, where the presatation placement is of importance to me, thankyou Grannyring. |
I have been experimenting over a number of years to get the best out of my B&W803D/Diamond loudspeakers which are hampered by a suspended wood-frame chipboard floor. The floor is both resonant and energy absorbing. For many years I used a loudspeaker platform made from 28mm laminated hardwood plywood which was bolted to the loudspeaker, and then spiked through the carpet into the floor chipboard.
The wider stance from the platform with inherent stability of the 3 spikes was superior to using the B&W spikes which didn't pierce the carpet, and hence was unstable. This platform tightened the sound - more focused and detailed sound-staging, and tighter bass. Best bang for buck tweak!
More recently tried StillPoints Ultra Fives bolted directly to the loudspeaker which sat on the carpet. This made it obviously very easy to tweak the position of the loudspeaker, but was dangerously unstable (the loudspeakers are tall, relatively narrow, and a bit top heavy). And the sound lost some of it's drive.
I then built a platform from 40mm Bamboo plywood where the StillPoint Ultra Fives bolted to the loudspeaker sat in cut-outs in the platform, and the platform was spiked to the underlying chipwood floor. This was physically stable and it resulted in significant improvement in inner detail over just the spiked platform with no downsides. Critically it made listening to music simply more compelling.
But I was still concerned about the resonant floor impacting the clarity of the bass/mid-bass. And the StillPoints + Platform made tweaking the loudspeaker position very difficult (because the StillPoints Ultra Fives could not be both bolted to the loudspeaker and the platform).
So I got a set of Townsend Seismic Isolation Bars and Pods to replace the spikes. Initially I tried these directly under the loudspeakers. But with a top heavy loudspeaker it resulted in scarily wobbly structure. There was a promising reduction in bass/mid-bass resonance, but sound-stage was a bit diffuse. I then bolted 3 Seismic Pods to the Bamboo platform using L steel brackets so that bottom of the platform was just off the carpet, so if loudspeaker was prodded it wouldn't topple over too far.
Well - this combination of the Townshend Seismic Pods with the StillPoints is excellent - dramatic increase in detail with lovely holographic sound-stage. More clarity through bass/mid-bass. Compared to spiking, the downside is a softening of the leading bass edge and slight reduction in deep bass impact. But on balance a great combination and a keeper. |
Mark_nz, very interesting, what a great read!, thankyou for your paticapation here. |
what is the presatation like?, Is it roll A, D, G, J???? This can vary with room geometry and speakers, but generally I have found the SS stands to have a much more "live" sound (aka ambient energy). In my current room, it is definitely more of a front row presentation (not mid or back hall). The musicians are right "there"....just like the real thing. |
I don't believe that the Apprentice change the fundamental room/speaker presentation. Depends on the recording but usually my stage begins behind the speaker's plane and goes back beyond the front wall. Some recordings place the instruments out in front of the speakers. As Agear said and I agree, the overwhelming effect is that the live presence/palpable aspect is improved. The sense of dynamic energy, flesh and blood and vibrancy are undeniable. It your system is organic this quality is enhanced further. The sound seems to come from everywhere but the speakers themselves with good recordings.
Charles, |
I agree that the stands don't all of a sudden change the perspective from row ten to one. If your system and speakers give you row one, then the stand will give you better sound in row one.
Agear has a killer row one room and speaker!
My speakers are not quite row one, but the stands made them more of what they already were if that makes sense... |
Ok after 4 days these Star Sound Apprentice stands have fully bloomed! Natural tone, luscious bass, engaging mids......all served up with all the dynamic energy you hear in live music. These are really a wonderful investment and marvelous. I want to repeat they do settle in over 72 hours and become more full bodied and natural sounding. |
Well,
We can all agree that the Apprentice is a terrific product.I look forward to Agear's inevitable purchase of the Backstage platforms and how they improve upon the Apprentice's high standards that we've established here. Agear don't keep us waiting too long.
Charles, |
Agear,
Your SOTA mechanically grounded listening room demands that the Backstage find a permanent home there. |
I am so happy to see other members discovering and enjoying these Apprentice platforms. It is really a great day in this hobby when you can not only afford to buy an accessory, but it makes an important contribution to your enjoyment of reproduced music. I imagine that some of you, like myself just want to shout out to other members with systems great or small "Get these!"
I can't imagine a system that they would not improve. |
While picking and choosing and auditioning new materials for the latest platforms this session appeared.
There was a variation.. of many tried that was less than 1/2 of 1 percent difference in gross material content. The presentation of this single platform was like having an animated 3D surreal Dali oil painting on the wall in front of me bending and blending itself onto the ceiling. It was if I were in a fish bowl looking around with double vision. While this vision within a vision was totally engaging it was also totally wrong. Strange how a little thing like chemistry can make for such a big change in sound. Speed propagation thru the material was the culprit. Tom. Star Sound Technologies. |
Theaudiotweak, I haven't looked but is there a table of speed propagations through different materials? And what does one seek-faster or slower? Also is it frequency dependent? I had a good deal of engineering training in undergraduate school but mainly in EE and ME. |
I have a table that can be used. The alloy I was seeing and hearing in "surround sound" had an additive that was a hardener to increase the wear characteristics. Great if you needed brakes for your race car but this one additive made for some crazy scenes. Less than one percent can make for some large differences so there was a long selection process and much listening to all the many concepts. Tom |
I look forward to Agear's inevitable purchase of the Backstage platforms and how they improve upon the Apprentice's high standards that we've established here. Agear don't keep us waiting too long. and Agear,
Your SOTA mechanically grounded listening room demands that the Backstage find a permanent home there. Lord have mercy. Well, if you really want to push towards the lunatic fringe as I am prone to, the Starsound Stage platforms are the obvious answer. They are an ALL BRASS version of the backstage. Due to inflationary pressure on raw materials such as brass, they will be $$$$. My wife would truly be filled with homicidal rage at that juncture. I can hear her now: "Brass stands? Really?" Well, I am glad for Robert, Tom and the Starsound collective for the resurrection of their company and technology. The Apprentice stands are a very modest investment for the performance you get. The audio press is finally starting to take notice: http://www.stereotimes.com/post/sistrum-apprentice-series-spsa103-platform/ |
The audio press has been very enamored with the Stillpoint products. It will be interesting to see how they find the different engineering approach of Star Sound products. Time will tell.
Charles, |
I feel like I need to tell you gentleman here, A long time ago, To me, The most profound resonance control went out of bussiness from the lack of keeping up with demand of sales, so bruce badlack of polycrystal closed down!, I lucked up, found some footers for speakers, I owned thousands of dollars of this stuff back in the day of the late 90s, I will never use my still points again, as of the good ole days, Polycrystal is the shxxx!, Rare to find any, as a matter of fact, Bruce used my invention, the disablocks, for top tunning of componets, they sold quite well, so if anybody has polycrystal products, I will give you double than what you paid new for them! |
Audiolabyrinth, I have several boxes of the Polycrystal cones that I would just give you were the two of us in Texas right now. But I will not be back there until October. Frankly I hated them as I did the carbon fibre cones. |
Agear, I was unaware of the all brass version of the Star Sound Backstage. Thanks for the head up.
Charles1dad, the Stillpoints Ultra series and their racks, in my opinion, are not displaced by the Star Sound platforms. Platforms cannot replace feet in all circumstances. The two technologies have different characteristics also.
At one point I was totally shocked at how superior the Stillpoint's technology for absorbing vertical vibration were to the nearly countless points and feet of virtually every material and springs of many styles I now have in boxes. I fully understand how this technology works.
More recently I have experienced the Star Sound Technology Apprentices, which I know rest on a completely different thought, namely get the vibrations quickly as possible to ground.
What you hear with these two devices is quite different and a hard choice. One is quick and dynamic, especially evident on brass instruments and drums. The other gives a sound stage that is very defined and real.
Presently I use a mix as small devices do not work on the about 10 by 14 inch platforms and the Star Sound platforms are, as yet, not released. |
Today I received 12 Stillpoints Ultra SS for my speakers and subwoofer. I will write a review about it in a few weeks. |
@ TBG, awsome!, Are your polycrystal footers for componets?, I have the speaker spikes, I will no longer use the stillpoints ultra ss anymore!, TBG, if you have the big componet footers you would make my year!, I will pay shipping, I pay you for the poly componet footers as well too if you like, man, thankyou Norm. |
TBG, I still plan to take your advise on the 103 stands for the speakers when I get the money together, I will give the star sound a whirl, I do trust your ears, norm, I have been thru alot, I just got my system back on line after a year and a couple weeks off line, you will not believe the hell I have been thru, it's like a audio horror story!, lots of money, heart ache, etc....Thankyou Norm. |
Audiolabyrinth, remember what I said. First all I have is the little 1 inch or so round cones. I think I have two sets. And most important they are in Texas and I'm in New Mexico until late Sept. |
Oh, ok, I undestand, I will see if I still need them then, thankyou TBG. |
''All of these stellar products are for those who love music rather than seekers of Hifi hype and sizzle.''
This thought is so old and worn out. Can we ALL please move on and leave this in the audio trash can? So hierarchy sounding. |
Ring,
That is a long 72 :)
Had 16 USS and sold them as the Sistrum was/is better. Now we have the 5. Then the 6 and 7 ....
The Star will beat out all Still # every time Ha
All gear on SP-1 stands for the sake of space/room. Speakers on SPK.
Oh how nice it is to get this part of Audio out of the way and live with THE STAR. |
Of course it's a hierarchy of preference. You've obviously have established some form of a hierarchy in choosing the Star Sound over the Stillpoint. How else would you have made a judgement/decision? We rate and place in catagories products that we hear and do our best to describe it to others.It you have a different vernacular than mine that's your choice.
Charles, |
The Sistrum SP-1 is ugly as hell, it even hurts to my eyes!!
lol.... |
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07-13-14: Bo1972
The Sistrum SP-1 is ugly as hell, it even hurts to my eyes!!
Compared to what? If IKEA particle board shelving is your idea of beauty, I guess I could understand that bias better. Sistrum shelving does not blend seamlessly into a standard living room nor is it meant to. It is designed for performance just like your speakers or any other piece of gear. Aesthetics is part of my day job, and I don't find the Starsound stuff ugly. |
Bo1972, once you put a component on the Sistrum, you won't see the darn thing anyway. And let's face it, a lot of audio gear is ugly as hell. |
I don't want a tool what is ugly. Even when people would pay me money every day I don't want it.
I get irritated by ugly looking audio stuff. For a perfectionist this is a 100% no go.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154404084510083&set=pcb.10154404097775083&type=1&theater
better looking..... |
Jafox is correct, the platforms are virtually unseen once a component is placed on them. Since we're discussing "audio", I'd be persuaded by which product subjectively improves sound quality the most convincingly.
Charles, |
I personally hate the gold colour. Like I hate rings and other jewelry in gold.
I want to see as little as possible. It is just personal! |
Bol,
With you guys discussing polishing Stillpoints, maybe you should consider plating the brass in chrome. I think that your attitude is ridiculous in this respect.
You claim to be a perfectionist, and you are a sound consultant, but in the end, your priority is in the looks.
Maybe you should be called "The Audio Jeweler". |
Bo1972, you can always spray paint the Audio Points black. And ruin the sound, but hey if looks are most important to you, that shouldn't matter. |
Roxy54, the brass surface on the Audio Points is very important. |
Bo the Audio Consultant? Hardly! Maybe interior decorator is more appropriate.
There are some wild looking amps and speakers out there but with so much competition in these areas, it's easy to find one of great sound and acceptable looks. And such products can make quite a physical presence in the room. But with few standout isolation products, dismissing a top notch performer because of cone color is ridiculous at best. |
There is so much marketing hokum surrounding footers and their costs can be so great that it is absurd for any audiophile worth his moniker to make a cut based only on aesthetics. On trousers maybe, though in custom tailoring whether ones "dresses" to the left or the right can be paramount!
In my system I have a mix of Ultra 5, SS, Starsound SP-1, and now Starsound Apprentice. These all work well and are largely invisible. Where I have directly compared the two technologies-- under CDP and just now under Pass XA-160.8 monoblocks-- the Star Sound platforms worked better. Where rugs are involved or where leveling is required(i.e. turntable), Stillpoints with their adjustable bases work particularly well. However, even Stillpoints are improved after removing the rug. This is curious, as I understand that Stillpoints devices are conceived to be inherently decoupling. |
I own the magico Q5's. I contacted magico and asked about the spikes and spike plates. I wanted larger ones to protect my floors. They advised me that the spikes that come with the speakers are designed for the speakers and other spikes may adversely effect the sound of the speakers. So they remained as is. On another note I am with Bo1972, not a fan of gold in audio equipment. Looks overstated and fake. Don't wear any jewelry any more. My personal view only. I do have still point ultra 5's on my tt. Did NOT notice any dramatic change in sound quality from the original footers. But look really cool, beefy, solid looking. They give the appearance they should sound better. As if they would provide a more solid bottom end. But to me, only the appearance. Just MY view, for what it's worth. |
"not a fan of gold in audio equipment. Looks overstated and fake"
You do realize that brass's gold color results from its ingredients, right? |
Dad,
I may have my preference in the Star vs the Still but you are missing the point and usually do.
Read you post I copied real SLOWWWW and report back. :)
Seekers of sizzle, hint. People vs components. |
Audiophiles are goofy creatures. Whine about the eternal struggle for good sound and yet pull up short in the name of aesthetics??? A little schizophrenic if you ask me. Again, the brass cones are essentially invisible from a conversational distance. This hand wringing is purely academic. I own the magico Q5's. I contacted magico and asked about the spikes and spike plates. I wanted larger ones to protect my floors. They advised me that the spikes that come with the speakers are designed for the speakers and other spikes may adversely effect the sound of the speakers Did they provide an engineering basis for this? A lot of speaker manufacturers get pissy and territorial when it comes to this subject.... |
Pkoegz, FWIW the Audiopoints on the Star Sound platforms are un-ostentatious solid brass and will not be mistaken for gold plate or jewelry. |
Who'a daddy? Who's my daddy? |
At the end you have to compare it yourself. I don't F...care what manufacturers say. Because I have proven that many times they were wrong.
You are the one who can hear if you prefer it or not. It is that easy.
The gold colour makes it look cheap and F...ugly. I don't understand why they didn't use a silver look.
I will write a review about the Ultra SS soon for under my speakers. It is impressive what it does. Without it you miss a lot. |
I didn't buy the Ultra SS for the looks. I bought them first because I love the extra quality they can give.
It is an important bonus for me that they look great. |
The gold colour makes it look cheap and F...ugly. I don't understand why they didn't use a silver look. The choice of brass is purely a matter of material science. Furthermore, the fabrication and material cost is significantly higher than Stillpoints. They are substantial pieces. I am glad you like your Stillpoints. i have owned both and at this juncture prefer SS. |
