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Tom of star sound, Hi, I do not believe that craig labortory's contact, spade, bannana, etc.. cleaner and conditioner would EVER degrade the performance of the audio points, it's made for such applications, I have seen this applied to some of the best audio metals in the world on world class systems to a astonishing effect to improve sound. |
They sound amazing and even look great, those both things make me smile. For those who use Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154467974390083&set=pcb.10154468051055083&type=1&theater https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154404084510083&set=pcb.10154404097775083&type=1&theater https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154286739180083&set=pcb.10154286739585083&type=1&theater see ya |
Audio Points are currently in the 24TH year of production. The product has evolved over time in material science, machining techniques and finishing processes. In some cases, years of environmental exposure has darkened the cosmetic appearance of the brass. Star Sound is constantly striving to improve the product. Should you have any Audio Points that have tarnished or discolored over time we will refinish them to the current product standards for a nominal cost. Upon return you will notice an improvement in performance as oxide or the tarnishing of brass slows the speed of resonance transfer on any brass part and limits sonic performance. We will not remove larger scratches or dents imposed from abuse. Audio Points current packaging instructions contain this information: No Brass Polishes EVER! The Trade Secret Star Sound finishing and brass bonding process assures years of sustained and natural brass cosmetic appearance, without oxidation. Store-bought brass polishes are abrasive and will destroy the finish, promoting oxidation that will certainly devastate the performance of the Audio Points, as well as any of the accessories. While competitors state that oxide establishes a natural patina look to the brass, the patina oxide produces is never a desirable effect for sound and performance efficiency. Tom..Star Sound Technologies. |
I spoke a few people who knew people who died by the plane crash. The world is getting harder. In the world of audio it is the same story. When I speak distributers you hear a lot of sad stories. It irritates me a lot. Because I want people to get the best endresult. In the Netherlands many shop buy unknown brands. They buy it directly from a factory. So they make a better profit. These products are often less than average. The other problem what you see more these days in my country is that people who work in audio get less freedom in giving advice. Audio shops are often distributer of brands. They get the advice to sell these products first. I call it colouration selling. I hate it a lot. I do it my way, I swimm against the stream. And you can't stop me. The best sound will win at the end! |
Audiolabyrinth, I ask Star Sound about polishing brass feet and was offer to have them polished by Star Sound. I asked whether that was done to the Audio Points and was told yes. They would say nothing more than to say I should not polish them at all, nor to paint them. I must say that I received cotton gloves to use in installing them. Finally, I recently discovered that the feet I used under my Tidal speakers were Star Sound Audio Points and they have gotten dull and I wonder about polishing them to be bright again. |
Hi Bo, Are you doing good these days?, I was sad to see on the news about the air plane deal, hope you had no suffering from that!, I admitt, you get under alot of members skin, including mine at times, But in the end, I like you very much, keep the debates coming, gives us something to do, thankyou Bo, cheers to you. |
I did not have a lot of free time the last weeks. I have read the thoughts about this product. I believe it is a good product. Here in the Netherlands many people don't like the gold colour. When the colour would be in silver overhere it would have been a nice product to sell. That is how I look at it. I give some distributers idea's of new products what I read overhere at Audiogon. I am aware that we have different thoughts about audio compared to how people think in the US. This has nothing to do about what is better. We are only talking about a different personal opinion. |
Charles, I certainly understand color preferences, but when there is no choice because it must be made of a certain alloy that has a golden color, it's a whole different story. At that point, you just have to accept it for what it must be, and appreciate it for what it is. Grass is green and the sky is blue for a reason, and wishing otherwise is not going to change them either, even if we don't find green or blue attractive. |
Melbguy1, The component when using the Stillpoints sits on ceramic balls. Each of these balls sits on other balls that almost allow the top one to fall through. It tries to force the balls below outward, but they cannot move. That outward pressure is only horizontal. This is how vibrations are converted largely into horizontal vibrations and ultimately converted into heat in the Stillpoints. Thus the Stillpoints absorb the vibrations and convert them into heat. This is quite at odds with the Star Sounds Technology Apprentices which seek to get the vibration to earth with speed and not absorption until it is in the earth, which tends to unperturbed by this tiny force. |
How many people here have an accelerometer Agear? Not exactly an exotic device (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1-1001220-0/MSP1001-ND/279641). DIY speakers boys often use them Like Dr. Lesurf, I have merely tried to provide logical arguments that show why some reviewers, manufacturer, sale persons and audiogoners make silly claims when the say that spikes actually isolate. No one on this thread is making that claim. This is merely a game of semantics, and yes the term is often misused in audio. I cannot deny that... |
Nvp, you are wrong that Stillpoints and Star Sound Tech. use the same technology. Tbg, please take the time to read and think at what I have written. Philosophy and technology are two very different things. Both products aim at draining out unwanted vibrations from the audio components - that is the common philosophy. The fact that ceramic balls and spikes represent different "technologies" is common sense. Nobody has claimed otherwise. In fact, I have made it very clear in the 2nd paragraph of my previous post that the approach used by the two companies is very different. |
Nvp, you are wrong that Stillpoints and Star Sound Tech. use the same technology. The Star Sound Apprentices seek to get vibration within the components to ground quickly. They don't favor the "absorption" which is what Stillpoints employs. With Stillpoints all vertical movement in the devices is converted into horizontal movement and converted into heat. Not surprisingly they sound quite different. If the Stillpoints are 100% effective, they alone provide isolation. Everything else absorbs somewhat down to its resonant frequency. |
Guys, you are missing the point. The goal of the little experiment above was to illustrate that in order to isolate a component one has to minimize as much as possible couplings. I did not recommended placing speakers on pillows nor did I recommended to isolate them from the floor. I merely suggested a simple experiment that should provide some insight into the physics involved. (This experiment can be done by anyone that is not completely deaf, has a hand with at least one finger and a computer with a fan that is not completely silent, i.e. a significant amount of the audiogoners. How many people here have an accelerometer Agear?) Regarding the two companies discussed here, I should point out that their philosophy and goals are basically the same. (In fact all top companies in this field tell about the same stories.) Both types of footers discussed here aim at draining out into the floor unwanted vibrations from the component resting on them, i.e. neither is trying to isolate the component. What is different is the way these devices are trying to achieve this. That is, one is increasing coupling to the floor while the other one is attempting to make the flow of energy unidirectional. About the resonance phenomenon Tbg, any 2 or 3 dimensional structure has characteristic frequencies called normal modes of vibrations (or eigen modes or resonant frequencies). The normal modes of vibrations of a structure represent the frequencies for which the transfer of energies between a structure and a source of vibration is maximum. Now, the normal modes of a structure are determined by the geometry of the structure and the distribution of mass in the structure (i.e. they are specific to each structure). Consequently, when placing a heavy speaker on the floor the resonant frequencies of the floor and also of the speaker will be affected. How significantly the normal modes change will be and which of normal modes will be affected depends on: the type of floor, how heavy the speaker, were you place the speakers in the room, where your room is situated in the building (e.g. ground floor, 1st floor, floor 100). As such, one (i.e. user or manufacturer) cannot know before hand which of these devices will provide the best result. One simply has to try them in his/her system. I hope I made it clear that I am not saying that one device/approach/company is better than the other one. I also hope it is now clear that I am not trying to provide a solution - there isn't a general one. Like Dr. Lesurf, I have merely tried to provide logical arguments that show why some reviewers, manufacturer, sale persons and audiogoners make silly claims when the say that spikes actually isolate. |
Nvp, When you have a sharp spike, you have many foot pounds per square inch from the weight of the component focused on that point. Mass means great inertia resisting motion. The expectation is that the component will be coupled to the shelf and then ultimately to earth. But that the floor's vibrations will have a hard time inducing vibrations in the component. But as alway the proof is in the pudding-does it sound better. Brass spikes differ in sound from steel ones, etc. Clearly resonant frequencies of the coupling also matter. Would you recommend only putting components on cushions? That might be taken as nonsense by some. |
The problem with most spikes is that they allow vibrations to go in both directions. That is, not only from the speakers into the floor but also from the floor into the speakers. This effect is not desirable. The easiest way to test that hypothesis would be to do what John Atkinson at Stereophile did many moons ago. Attach an accelerometer to the speaker cabinet and see what happens with and without your grounding device of choice. |
Agear, I suggest the following easy experiment. Place on a normal office table a component that has a fan (which is neither very quiet not very noisy), e.g. a computer or an external hard-drive. After turning on the component, place your elbows on the table and a finger in each of your ear and listen to the vibrations generated by the fan that travel through the table. Then, place a cushion between your elbow and the table and listen again. I predict the following outcome: 1) When resting on the table using your elbows you will hear very clearly and loudly these vibrations. (There is a decently strong coupling between our ears and the medium conducting the vibrations.) 2) When placing a cushion between your elbows and the table you will hear these vibrations significantly less. (The coupling has been significantly reduce in this situation.) 3) When removing your elbows from the table you will hear the fan but not the vibration generated by the fan that travel through the table. (There is no coupling in this situation). Obviously, in the experiment suggested above the elbows play the same role the spikes play in an audio system. The simple experiment suggested above should illustrate to everyone that spikes do not isolate. On the contrary, spikes increase the coupling between the spiked audio component and the surface on which this audio component rests. (In fact, even poor spikes like our elbows provide a decent amount of coupling!) It is important to note, however, that this is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, increasing the coupling can be beneficial for subwoofers or speakers with large bass drivers. The large mass of the floor and the strong coupling between the floor and speaker provides a very strong foundation for the bass drivers, viz. the movements of the driver are less likely to induce movements of the cabinet of the speaker/subwoofer. (The strong coupling between floor and speaker will also change the spectrum of resonant frequencies of the floor and also of the speaker - because of the added mass and the change in geometry. Depending on the situation and also on the listener this may affect the sound positively, negatively or not at all.) The problem with most spikes is that they allow vibrations to go in both directions. That is, not only from the speakers into the floor but also from the floor into the speakers. This effect is not desirable. The reason is that one wants to hear the music reproduced by the speakers, i.e. not the music produced by the speaker and modulated by spectrum of resonant frequencies of the floor. |
Pkoegz, SRA rack, wow! Do you find any benefit of using StillPoints on the SRA? If so, I would suggest the Ultra Minis which are exception and cheap. You need to be careful with them, however, as you can shatter the ceramic balls, I'm told. I am retired now and find that I'm unwilling to miss out on developments at this point in my life. Since my retirement five years ago, my realism has greatly improved making me wish I had it fifty years ago. |
08-06-14: PkoegzThanks for your advice Pkoegz regarding connecting the Ultra 5's under Magico speakers. That makes sense because you apply the same principle under an amp for example. In regard to Stillpoints claim the Ultra 5's sound the same sloped side up or down, I don't agree with that. And there is enough forum & review feedback to suggest so. You don't really need to thread the U5's to front end components or amps since they don't generate the same energy as speakers, and aren't at risk of being bumped like speakers. And screwing them into the component limits where you can place the feet. In the case of my SIA-025 Hans Ole Vitus experimented with Ultra 5's under his own SIA-025 and got the best results placing the feet under the screw locations for the psu (which generates the most vibration). Makes sense & works a treat! Try it and post an update :) ps: great amp! |
Agear's room is not treated, no it is birthed from the ground up. I have heard his room and my voice has never sounded so wonderful. I had no idea I sounded so incredible! Simple conversation was startling and so alive. An experience I will never forget. I know this about that room. I have no doubt a set of decent used $100 speakers and a receiver would sound better in his room than many high end systems in typical rooms. No joke fellow Aphiles. A revelation to be sure. |
08-06-14: Tbg I share those sentiments and thus the absence of "treatments" in my room. All the operative elements in my "energy room" are internal. IMO, standard paradigms of room treatment tend to be parasitic of ambient energy and thus lack the plausibility of a good auditory illusion. SS shared this sentiment and thus the reason we danced the dance with this crazy prototype of a room. It all started as idle daydreaming and chatter between Robert and myself over three years ago. I had audiophile friends telling me it was a crazy and expensive experiment. Indeed, but my intuition was correct and it worked. |
Agear, I guess I've heard about your room from Star Sound. Apparently there will be others soon and I think I will get to hear them. Thus far I have never liked room treatments, although at first I can hear their impact. At some point, I hear their wrong sound and enjoy removing them. I look forward to reading your description of the techniques and their impact. |
(These devices are unable to get rid of the real elephant on ones room, i.e. excited room modes - the most critical type of rezonance in one's system. Consequently, I am of the opinion that one should take care of those type or resonances first before starting to debate the benefits and superiority of various fine tuning devices.) That's a fairly profound and perceptive statement. That is the reason why I worked with SS technology on designing a room with mechanically grounding in mind so as to "manage" room energies. The walls were treated with their proprietary technology and not viscoelastics from the 80s....:/ More information will be available with a formal system thread of mine and a subsequent review in the not too distant future.... |
Nvp I enjoyed your above post. Some find it difficult to read things that fly in the face of what they believe. This is the basic problem with society in general. Facts don't matter, just opinions. To each their own. Fortunately, opinions don't change the out come. Keep reading and posting, maybe they will learn from you. |
Melbguy1, I got my information directly from Paul Wakeen owner of Stillpoints but it was before there were the Ultra bases. I was doing a review of them, I did a comparison one time of Ultra SSs as they do allow some height adjustment. They definitely sounded better with the taper toward speakers as the technology is at the hard hat (tapered) end. Since three points define a plain, anytime you use four, one will typically not in contact, so you would need some method to get contact. Incidentally, in my experience, four Ultra on everything are much better than three. And this is not subtle. |
Melbguy1 I find that the footers function better tightly attached to the body of the speaker. The weight of the speaker then settles the ultra 5's to the floor making for an extremely stable, level set up. The adapters, as far as I can tell, are not for any type of adjustment. Christiaan Punter seems to use the bases under amps and such. Stillpoint suggest you will get the same result used in either direction, which makes sense to me. I prefer the threaded. I have the ultra 5's under my turntable and threaded to it. If I were you I would also order the adapters, then try both and decide for yourself. On an unrelated matter I too own the Vitus SIA-025 and love it. |
Thanks for your f'back on the Ultra 5's Pkoegz. I'm glad you've had success using them under your Q5's. Given the weight of the Q5's the U5's would be working optimally in terms of their weight range. In regard to the Ultra bases, have a read of my above post, and in particular Christiaan Punter's review which is quite interesting. Cheers. |
08-05-14: TbgTbg, I think what your'e referring to is the fact that up to recently, Ultra 5 feet were only threaded on the bottom to enable the feet to be screwed into components and speakers (as per the Vitus MP-S201), however Stillpoints recently started spec'ing Ultra 5's with threading on the top *and* bottom to enable the feet to be installed in the optimal sloped side up configuration. Now when I say "optimal" that is my subjective opinion, although I note my viewpoint accords with Christiaan Punter who authored the following review for hifi-advice.com - http://hifi-advice.com/Stillpoints-review-2.html In regard to using the thread adaptors attached to the speaker for height adjustment (in lieu of using the Ultra Bases), I don't think that would work as, atleast the thread adaptors I have for my S5's are too short on the speaker end to allow any useful height adjustment, and to do so might compromise the structural integrity of the adaptor. Imho you don't want to push it as for example my S5's are 86kg which is a lot of weight baring down on the adaptor & I know of one other S5 owner who, using the older narrower adaptors, bent an adaptor 'walking' his speakers into place. My newly spec'ed adaptors however have a much larger diameter for the most part which will give the adapter greater strength. Btw, the Ultra bases further improve the sound of the Ultra 5's by allowing the 'technology pocket' to be better isolated, and therefore work more efficiently. I tried the Ultra 5's with Ultra bases under my Vitus SIA-025 and found one foot was not fully in contact with the component with all 4 bases broken a 1/4 of a turn as recommended. A quick adjustment of the Ultra base & problem solved! The easy height adjustment is another positive about that product. Given they are only about $69 each, to me if you're going to invest almost $700 on an Ultra 5, they are a no-brainer. |
The goal of the article was to explain to non-experts that spikes do not isolate (as it is often believed or claimed) but increase the coupling e.g. between speakers and floor. Nvp, the goal of the article and its unfortunate resurrection seemed to be to cast a jaundiced eye on their use in the context of a thread celebrating such a technology. Since you're a physicist, please explain how they might be beneficial, and you're not allowed to use that lame analogy of shoe and cleat. Here is one explanation from Starsound technology by way of the department of engineering at Stanford: http://starsoundaudio.com/CMS/uploads/vibration-and-coulomb-friction-2013_001.pdf Here is a snippet from Robert of SS: Link to Coulomb Friction on website: |
In my opinion the article "Speaker Spikes and Cones Whats the point" by Dr. Jim Lesurf is very well written. The ones here who have criticized it should realize that this article was intended for non-expert readers (e.g. audiophiles and audiophile journalists) and not for a speciality journal. The goal of the article was to explain to non-experts that spikes do not isolate (as it is often believed or claimed) but increase the coupling e.g. between speakers and floor. The analogy given for explaining this (i.e. spikes on running shoes) is as simple and clear as it gets. The ones who do not understand this analogy are simply in no position to criticize the article or understand it for that matter. As other have already mentioned, all these vibration management devices (e.g. footers, spikes, etc.) are fine tuning devices which depending on the situation may work or may not work. (These devices are unable to get rid of the real elephant on ones room, i.e. excited room modes - the most critical type of rezonance in one's system. Consequently, I am of the opinion that one should take care of those type or resonances first before starting to debate the benefits and superiority of various fine tuning devices.) I apologies if I sound condescending, but I lost my patience with some of the silly arguments above. I have started to read this thread in the hope of learning something from people with first hand experience with these products ... |
Melbguy1, I installed two sets of four ultra 5's under my Q5's. No bases though. Did not see the point(no pun intended). I also bought 8 of the Stillpoints adapters 1/4 20 to 3/8 16 which you will need as well. I love the look and solid foundation they give the Q5's. As far as vibration control goes, under the loudest volumes the speaker housings remain quiet with no vibration. What else can you ask for? I hated their original STAINLESS STEEL spikes. Wrote magico about my view never heard back. Can't do better. My experience anyway. Expensive though, but I guessing you know that. |