FYI I ran a pair of
Perreaux 2150B bi-amped to push Apogee Stages. They ran nice and warm/hot, but not scary hot.
Still looking for an amplifier upgrade- but with a new twist.....
Hello,
I am back seeking advice. Some of you may recall that I wrote before looking for feedback to upgrade the amplification I was using to drive a pair of MagicoS1mk1. I am still looking for amplification but my journey, if we want to call it that, has had an unexpected twist- I changed speakers instead of the amplification.
To make a long story short, before I owned the Magcio's I had bought a pair Thiel 3.7's. I got a very good deal on them and took a chance hoping they wouldn't look too imposing in my room and for the overall decor. Unfortunately they did look a bit too outsized which is why I got the much more room friendly Magico's. After a long time that the Thiel's were just sitting there gathering dust I finally got ready to sell them. But for fun I decided to give them a last run in my system before I boxed them up and listed them. Well, I thought they sounded so good, with improved resolution, body, air and texture than the Magico's, which themselves are really engineering marvels considering what they can do for their size, that I decided to throw caution to the wind and just live with size.
Don't get me wrong, the Thiel's are hardly perfect. Apart from being cumbersome with what many would consider controversial looks, they can also have a somewhat hot upper midrange/treble. I this respect the Magico would probably be considered better balanced. But for what I value, the Thiel's give me a better sense of the nuance of the performance with clearer spatial cue's and a more defined impact of the leading edge of notes. To some degree I found them akin to the YG Hailey's I auditioned at a friend's house this summer. The Thiel's are not in the same league but they work for me- love them.
(Btw, as an aside I also recently auditioned the Magico A3's- a simply outstanding achievement and for that price? Unheard of! Expansive soundstage, bass, fullness- just great. The one fault is I found is that resolution and more subtle cue's are not much better than the S1mk1's- and I don't know about mk2's. But for everything else they are one of the greatest designs I have had the privilege to listen to).
Ok sorry, so back to the matter at hand. Right now I am using a Mcintosh Ma7000 integrated- however I have bypassed the preamp stage with a Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp equipped with NOS tubes. So in essence I am running what would be an upgraded circuit mc252 amp with the Primaluna pre-amp. The improvement over the standalone Ma7000 is very significant.
So if I were to upgrade from the Mcintosh what should I consider for a budget of about $5k (probably for second hand)?
What I am trying to achieve is much greater depth and layering of the sound stage.
I have a feeling that tubes would be the ultimate combination for the Thiel's but they are difficult to drive: they are 90db but with an impedance that drops close to 2Ohms for a not insignificant portion of the frequency spectrum. So the right tube amplification might be too pricey. At least at this stage I have not found anything that would fit the bill.
Going the ss route I have thought about the BHK 250's or a pair of Parasound Jc1's with high class A bias. Pass would likely be a good match but hard to find one of the higher powered models with enough current to drive the Thiel's within my budget.
Considering the Thiel's high frequency characteristics I think the Bryston's (7b3's?) might not make an ideal match.
I know that ultimately I need to hear the equipment for myself but hearing your thoughts has always helped me a lot.
Many thanks,
PLG
I am back seeking advice. Some of you may recall that I wrote before looking for feedback to upgrade the amplification I was using to drive a pair of MagicoS1mk1. I am still looking for amplification but my journey, if we want to call it that, has had an unexpected twist- I changed speakers instead of the amplification.
To make a long story short, before I owned the Magcio's I had bought a pair Thiel 3.7's. I got a very good deal on them and took a chance hoping they wouldn't look too imposing in my room and for the overall decor. Unfortunately they did look a bit too outsized which is why I got the much more room friendly Magico's. After a long time that the Thiel's were just sitting there gathering dust I finally got ready to sell them. But for fun I decided to give them a last run in my system before I boxed them up and listed them. Well, I thought they sounded so good, with improved resolution, body, air and texture than the Magico's, which themselves are really engineering marvels considering what they can do for their size, that I decided to throw caution to the wind and just live with size.
Don't get me wrong, the Thiel's are hardly perfect. Apart from being cumbersome with what many would consider controversial looks, they can also have a somewhat hot upper midrange/treble. I this respect the Magico would probably be considered better balanced. But for what I value, the Thiel's give me a better sense of the nuance of the performance with clearer spatial cue's and a more defined impact of the leading edge of notes. To some degree I found them akin to the YG Hailey's I auditioned at a friend's house this summer. The Thiel's are not in the same league but they work for me- love them.
(Btw, as an aside I also recently auditioned the Magico A3's- a simply outstanding achievement and for that price? Unheard of! Expansive soundstage, bass, fullness- just great. The one fault is I found is that resolution and more subtle cue's are not much better than the S1mk1's- and I don't know about mk2's. But for everything else they are one of the greatest designs I have had the privilege to listen to).
Ok sorry, so back to the matter at hand. Right now I am using a Mcintosh Ma7000 integrated- however I have bypassed the preamp stage with a Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp equipped with NOS tubes. So in essence I am running what would be an upgraded circuit mc252 amp with the Primaluna pre-amp. The improvement over the standalone Ma7000 is very significant.
So if I were to upgrade from the Mcintosh what should I consider for a budget of about $5k (probably for second hand)?
What I am trying to achieve is much greater depth and layering of the sound stage.
I have a feeling that tubes would be the ultimate combination for the Thiel's but they are difficult to drive: they are 90db but with an impedance that drops close to 2Ohms for a not insignificant portion of the frequency spectrum. So the right tube amplification might be too pricey. At least at this stage I have not found anything that would fit the bill.
Going the ss route I have thought about the BHK 250's or a pair of Parasound Jc1's with high class A bias. Pass would likely be a good match but hard to find one of the higher powered models with enough current to drive the Thiel's within my budget.
Considering the Thiel's high frequency characteristics I think the Bryston's (7b3's?) might not make an ideal match.
I know that ultimately I need to hear the equipment for myself but hearing your thoughts has always helped me a lot.
Many thanks,
PLG
29 responses Add your response
@pgastone You can run tubes if you like- get a set of ZEROs (www.zeroimpedance.com) and you can run any tube amp that makes enough power. The ZEROs have taps for 2 ohms and thus load the tube amp at 16 ohms. They also have bandwidth much wider than most tube amps. Here are some reviewer comments:http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0703/midmonth/atmazero.htm |
@pgastone like i said in my thread forget about tube separates, for $5K no tube separates will drive your 3.7s properly.If you are ok with an integrated and listen at moderate volumes i would recommend the VAC Renaissance 30/30.Otherwise a used Hegel H30 paired with tube preamp will sound fantastique. |
Btw, I just that there is thread started by thieliste asking about the best separates combination for Thiel 3.7’s- what a coincidence! However there is one very notable difference- thieliste is playing in another league than mine- he’s looking for ultimate reference level equipment which is way way way above my budget. But the spirit is the same- I like the 3.7’s so much that I just want maximize the electronics to bring out the best of what they can do (but at a different level of course). I have had some great suggestions here and I am starting to wonder if I should do a preamp and amp upgrade. Combinations that I am very intrigued with that seem to offer v good value would be bhk and aesthetix’s- I have had a little experience listening to the latter ( Atlas with a VTL preamp) and it was great with the YG Haileys. As for standalone amps Pass sounds like an excellent option and I have to say Indid look at Lamm- a friend of mine had a pair of hybrid mono’s way back in the day and just loved them. He eventually moved to Europe and sold them. Anyway, this is kind of what I am thinking at the moment. |
I think I will indeed try to the ps audio forum and see what I get back. Btw, any thoughts with regards to the BHK signature preamp as helomech above did suggest that maybe a preamp upgrade might make more of a difference than a new amp- my understanding is that it has a uniquely designed volume control that may actually be more transparent than the alps pot in my Primaluna. |
The BHK 250 is a great choice with it's tube front end. Here is one from a respected authorized dealer. https://www.highperformancestereo.com/power-amplifiers/ps-audio-bhk-stereo-250-power-amplifier-used.... If you have concerns about the BHK then go to the PS forum and ask users, the company owner and even BHK himself. Another good option is the Modwright KWA-150SE https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649472791-modwright-kwa150-signature-edition/ I know a guy on another forum that has used the Modwright with the 3.7's for several years and no issues. |
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@ unsound yes, i am well aware of the difference between volume levels and ideal operating conditions- particularly for a sub 3ohm load where the amplifier needs to be capable of providing adequate sustained current and also manage dynamic peaks. as such, do you have some suggestions based on what you know about the thiel 3.7's? @ ebm pass labs would be a very good candidate but finding a 250.8 isn't easy within my budget. what is nice about .8's is the higher class a bias vs .5. Considering the Thiel's are not an easy load having that higher bias allows for a bit more listening in class a before the amp needs to switch to ab/b. @ cedergrover Ideally finding a pair of mono's would probably be a great solution but it would be very tough to stay within budget. I would be tad concerned that the stereo version might strain a little. That said, the Hailey's seemed to work quite well- they are 87db with 3Ohm minimum but I haven't seen a full measurement with an impedance graph. |
I just replaced my Classe 300 watt monoblocks with a new BHK 250 signature.Couldn’t be happier. The Classe’s were too smooth and I couldn’t tame the bass with the Classe’s. I stuffed the ports to try to tighten up the bass and I trimmed the bass level down using my new Mcintosh C47 preamp. With the BHK, I took all the stuffing out of the ports and took out the bass trim on the preamp. I get solid bass now and the mids/highs are excellent sounding. I’m using the Usher x-tower speakers Tri-wired from the BHK. |
Here are some maybe worth considering... https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=Plinius https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis96ag5-bryston-4bsst3-bryston-4b-3-cubed-amplifier-black-17-soli... https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649466855-clayton-audio-m70-class-a-monoblock-amplifiers/ https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis96gia-clayton-audio-s40-stereo-amplifier-solid-state?refsource=... If if you can find one, a McCormack DNA500 would probably be a great fit. I think the Bryston cubed series is a bit more refined so still may be worth considering. I think all these can work down to 2 Ohms. Best of luck. |
I have two to consider not yet mentioned : D'Agastino Era Krell like the FBP, KSA & KMA series and the Lamm hybrids like M2.x. I have owned both to drive my challenging vintage Sound Labs. The Lamms are specifically made to handle very low impedance dips. The Krells are totally unflappable IMHE. Both are in your price range. They also hold their value better than most, so if you change your mind, you won't lose your shirt. Long drive pickup worth the trouble vs shipping! Cheers, Spencer |
hmmm You make a good point and I have thought about that. I just wasn't sure where the money would be better spend in terms of an upgrade considering the Primaluna is actually very good though maybe not quite at the level of say an Aesthetix Calypso Signature or a BHK (within my budget, that is). I just thought that the "weaker" link now may be the Mcintosh. But maybe not! To your point I can say that in terms of upgrading the preamp component I was shocked how much a better the system sounded when I bypassed the Mac section (nice feature that this intergated allows you to do that). Where to add the incremental dollar is a tough nut to crack. |
I'd first look for a tube preamp with a stepped attenuator/resistor ladder volume control. That should yield better channel and instrument separation. Those Alps pots are a weak link IMO. Don't get me wrong, I own some gear with Alps pots and they're acceptable for a certain price point, but don't belong in the league in which you're playing. |
yes- have to be judicious about an amp for these Thiel's but the Mcintosh, which is a 252 and preamp in one, drives the speakers with absolutely no problems and can go much louder than i can stand. Now of course the Mac has autofomers so that it can deliver 250 watts at lower impedances as well but that said there are certainly amplifiers that can match Mac. I think that the amps I have mentioned should manage to handle the Thiels. As for the Aesthetix I did think it- in fact the YG's I mentioned above were being run with an Atlas signature- really a very impressive amp. The only issue is that it doesn't take banana plugs which my Nordost have- but I guess I could figure out a work around. I have wondered for some time how the Aesthetix and BHK might compare- both hybrid and both with similar specs. However I have not found any comparison though it would seem like an interesting one to perform. If anyone has some thoughts on that I would be intrigued to hear what other listeners may have experienced. |
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Tread carefully many highly regarded amps (including some you've mentioned) might be believed to be capable of the 3.7's load really aren't. Tubes aren't really an economical consideration. Check the specs and better yet independent testing. Thiel recommends between 100-600 Watts per channel, but that's for a standard 8 Ohm load. As you noted the 3.7's are almost a steady 2.5 Ohm load. That now becomes more like 400-2400 Watts into a nice safe round 2 Ohms. You need an amp that can deliver appropriate power into the actual load of the speakers. Be careful of amps touting stable into short term load impedances. Those Theil's are steady not temporarily into that load. |