Hi, I need recommendations for a speaker upgrade. I’m a classical violinist and listen almost exclusively to classical, opera and jazz. No movies, Atmos, etc. I have a 17x14 listening room (doubles as practice room) with acoustical treatments (phase coherent diffusers at main reflection points and regular ones elsewhere). Half my listening is in stereo and half in multi-channel (4.0 and 5.1). All my recordings are either CDs or high-res—DSD and FLAC—audio files. I don’t have a turntable.
My current system: Marantz SR 8012 amp, Yamaha S1000 CD transport, Exasound e38 DAC and Sigma streamer (connected to the Marantz with analog 5.0 inputs). Speakers: Polk Rti A7 stereo, CSi A6 center, Rti A3 surround, and dual REL T/7i subs. What I want: speakers with improved musical detail and clarity that really reproduces the expansiveness of the symphony hall or church. I like a warmer sound than a drier one. What’s most important to me is to hear what the recording engineer heard. Budget: say 8k or less.
Recommendations? One other thing: Can I try them out? And how? I’m in Santa Fe, not a huge metropolis with lots of audiophile shops. Thanks very much.
I put my old brain in gear and found a review on the Totem Forest that is SPOT on ! I have no idea who the guy is but he does but he does have a Canadian accent .
Nothing personal on anyone .But a classical player hears different from you or a listener that has been to a thousand concerts . This guy does not play them , digital on You Tube to start with .
https://youtu.be/xNSQInRlTck?t=1 What I have heard off any maggy does not seem like a concert hall .But we all do not hear the same.
I recently purchased a lovely pair of Spendor SP2/3E https://photos.app.goo.gl/GvQNGBZki9nouPgCAhttp:// 2nd movement, Beethoven Symphony No 7. Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra / Carlos Kleiber sounds stunning!
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 5 in E flat major, Op. 73 'Emperor', Glenn Gould, American Symphony Orchestra, Leopold Stokowski has lovely sound stage and reberb.
Spendors are not a well know in North America as Harbeth, so used tend to go for less.
Yes, Alta Audio is far too rare to spot in the used market. Thou I believe they are US made, has I mistaken? I heard them twice in audio shows and always amazed me... as well as everyone else in the room as well. +1 for the maggie's as well
Happy to recommend Vienna Acoustics. I understand they have different price points. As a classical music lover myself, we couldn’t be happier. We managed to find their top of the line speakers available as a demo, and so we upgraded from our initial Vienna’s.
No contest. Magnepan 3.7i's. You already have the two subs to put under them. These speakers will give you a much more realistic sound stage. Instruments will appear their normal size and not a micro version of themselves. Violins in particular will sound much more realistic. As you improve your electronics the differences and improvements will stand out. The only speakers better are ESLs and some horns but for way more money. The 3.7i's are an amazing value. There are 6 figure speakers that can not compete. You will never look at another sardine can again.
I read the other posts better. I agree with the Alta Audio speakers , they are very good BUT not made in US and rare , if you have a priblem......Fritz speakers are excellent but last time I looked only small monitors. I would have to hear the soundstage Classical needs and you want . The Totem Forest Signature is the must musical Speaker I have heard with spatiality and the attact/delay a real orchestra has. Not a large speaker but your sub can handle lowest octave . It's a hot-rod version of the plain version Forest which are 3 K . Forgot what The Sig version costs but not a huge amount . I would have bought one but in your 80's and no one to give it to would be foolish.My Signature One Totem Monitor can handle Bach perfectly in a 15x13 room .
.Sounders Amps are powerful and dynamic .IF the Marantz you have is a receiver , you need to lose it .
My ps12 tekton which is half the MOAB can play any music I throw at them.i like the tone of this speakers though not as good as my Andra and my Technic SB700 monitors.The ps 12 are very capable speakers.
I have thousands of records and CD ’s of Classical Music and have been to over 2,000 live concerts mostly of the great German Orchestras in Berlin and Leipzig, home of Bach . The rest mostly the Minnesota Or.and the St Paul CO . both world class or very close to it . It is not true that a good speaker will play anything . MANY are voiced for rock as that is by far the greatest market. A pro Classical string artist needs above all TONE . Followed by dynamics .
The most reliable brands for that I have owned and heard are Totem out of Montreal , and Spendor out of England , which makes it cost more.I would call Totem , they will talk to and tell you what they have is best for you with you room etc and they are honest with good service . The two Totems I own are far better that the2 Polk’s I have owned and ditto for maggies. If you get what they sell at over 20K .........
I'll get heat for this, I know, but this fellow fiddler gets a kick out of the tone gotten from his Nola Boxers. They certainly don't deliver true under-the-ear intensity, but that's actually a blessing. It's more of a three-to ten feet away sensibility.
"Music Style Specific" speakers should be avoided, or at least the idea of such should be ignored as ANY good speaker will reproduce whatever you put into it regardless of music genre. Great for classical will be great for Death Metal, Jazz, or Mumblecore (although I'm not sure what that is). The key things are range, coherency, and efficiency. I've heard some amazingly dynamic sound come out of a pair of LS3/5a little speakers, and some delicate stuff from gigantic horns...
1, Make high efficiency, sensitivity 90 db or above a strong factor, will keep the power needs/cost down for any future amp.
2. Efficient speakers then keep you in the more affordable power range of 25-30-35 wpc tube amps, less money, less heat, less weight, less location restrictions.
3. Consider two systems, tube amp for 2 channel listening; 5.1 amp for surround listening.
I used to compare/demo 3 systems for myself and friends: mono tubes; tube receiver; SS.
I put a permanent 4 foot run from my speakers to female banana that I can lift and reach standing up, then drop down behind the speakers. Select from 3 color coded speaker wires.
Thanks for all the recommendations! This is fabulous. As you can tell, I’m new at this. I did read the LS/9f review. (Can my Marantz power It?) It sounds very interesting. I’ll read about the other recommendations next.
Question: One reason I have the Marantz is so that I can listen to multi channel. If I wanted to replace it, what should I do for multi channel recordings? (The Marantz does have pre-outs.)
I play trumpet in an orchestra (although I sometimes slum in Big Bands 😎🎺).
The speakers that I have are Martin Logan Spires. They deliver what you are looking for.
I power them with either solid state or tube monoblocks.
My s/s monoblocks are Soundcraftsmen PM860’s from the early 80’s. They put out 900 W at 4 ohms. They can be found for under $600.
My tube monoblocks are Golden Tube Audio SE-40’s from the early 90’s. They put out 75 W. I completely rebuilt these so I wouldn’t recommend them unless you can find ones that have been.
Both amps sound musical but different. The s/s amps have a lot more punch.
If you don’t mind getting used, give Alta-Audio Celesta FRM-2 (or the newer FRM-2M) a listen. Most amazing speakers I’d heard with string instruments & classical music. Truly a heaven matched. Also seem to be great fit for your room size. And use remaining budget to upgrade your amp. The speakers deserve/need quality power.
Four recommendations. If you can swing it, Harbeth 40.2. The regular 40.2 model is now superseded by the Anniversary edition and the 40.3 XD, but the real difference in performance is minimal. Which means that the 40.2 becomes more affordable, if you can find a NOS, NIB, demo, or gently used example.
Otherwise: A Spendor from the Classic series, starting with the Classic 100. I cannot recommend the D series. Vienna Acoustics Liszt. This would work very well for you. One of the models from Fritz, combined with those two REL subs.
Auditioning. This was difficult before the pandemic. Do you travel for work? The options are limited. I can't think of anywhere that does home auditions on the brands/models I recommend. So you're reduced to audio shows (none currently being held) and audio tourism, visiting shops (if open) in big cities when you pass through.
Get Harbeth. I listen exclusively to classical. The sound of strings, woodwinds, and human voices sound perfect on the 40.2. It’s so good that I’m not worried about upgrading my speakers anymore. The 30.2 are also excellent, especially in a small room setting.
I’d like to comment about one of the characteristics you mentioned:
"What I want: speakers... that really reproduce the expansiveness of the symphony hall or church."
In home audio there is a competition between the acoustic signature of the venue (which is on the recording) and the acoustic signature of the playback room. In most home audio systems, the "small room signature" of the playback room dominates.
Imo we can look to what works well in the concert hall for inspiration. Quoting acoustician David Griesinger:
"Envelopment is the holy grail of concert hall design. When reproducing sound in small spaces [home listening rooms], envelopment is often absent."
"Envelopment is perceived when the ear and brain can detect TWO separate streams: A foreground stream of direct sound, and a background stream of reverberation. Both streams must be present if sound is perceived as enveloping."
Implied by the TWO STREAMS paradigm is a time gap in between the direct sound and the strong onset of reflections. This is desirable in the concert hall AND in home audio, though the timescales are less in home audio because the reflection path lengths are shorter. How long of a time gap is adequate? Griesinger again:
"Transients are not corrupted by reflections if the room is large enough - and 10ms of reflections free time is enough."
We can get the 10 milliseconds of reflections-free time (in the horizontal plane at least) in a room the size of yours by using speakers which are directional enough to avoid putting much energy into the same-side-wall early reflections. But we also need to have a significant amount of energy in the subsequent background stream of reverberation. There are several possible ways of accomplishing this, one of which is to use a multichannel system.
Recall that there is a "competition" between the venue cues on the recording and the small-room signature of the playback room. It is the EARLIEST reflections which are the most responsible for small-room signature (though decay time can also play a role). By minimizing the energy in the early reflections, and having plenty of spectrally-correct energy in late-arriving reflections, and using diffusion instead of absorption (kudos for your use of diffusion!), we can use these later-arriving reflections to effectively present the venue cues on the recording. And when the venue cues on the recording dominate over the playback room’s inherent small-room signature, if it’s a good recording, we have envelopment.
So envelopment is elusive in home audio, but can be accomplished by applying the principles that work well in the concert hall, which usually calls for some creativity (unless the playback room is very large). Envelopment isn’t the ONLY thing that matters of course, but it can be borderline transcendental when it happens.
I can go into some specifics if you’d like. Doing so would involve describing things that I’m commercially involved with.
The original Quad ESL “57” was exquisite listening to Menuhin playing the Beethoven concerto but didn’t do loud and the tone changed when I moved my head. A more modern electrostatic may be worth an audition. Used Thiel CS series, highly detailed and coherent but not made any more, they need current, see Thiel owners thread. BBC monitors now made by Graham (Chartwell) Audio, designed by the BBC engineers to monitor their broadcasts before Rock music existed and still very good at their job.
Regarding the Marantz. I just happened to have it left over from the living room, and since it has analog in, thought I’d use it. No one put my system together, just used spare parts. I‘m willing to move from the Marantz, maybe suggestions for amp + speakers <= $10k?
Budget of $8K was mentioned. Not sure I’d spend that much on speakers without upgrading from your Marantz receiver. If the Marantz must stay then I’d suggest Magnepans since your Marantz is probably on the warmer side and you already have the subs. The 1.7’s are probably plenty big for your room and you’ll save a lot of money, or spend some of the cash to upgrade to warmer cables along with. If you play real loud the Maggie’s might not be your best choice although I think they play plenty loud for my ears.
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