Sota Sapphire and Isolation?

Yes, saw them demo the SOTA at XPONA and allowed me to try upset the playing record by banging on the turntable and support. It didn’t miss a beat.

Congrats!

Quick update: I set up the Sapphire today. It sounds pretty damn killer just sitting on the shelf. I'm blown away by the sound stage, particularly the placement of instruments/voices. It seems just right. This is only a few albums in. Luckily, my wife is out of town this weekend. I foresee a lot vinyl in the next couple days. 

Thank you, Mike and Larry.

While it is impossible for us to know what the complex interactions will be, the odds favor a bad reaction to putting a sprung table on a sprung platform.  Even a slightly compliant platform, like the Ginko platform may be a negative, but, one can only know by trying it.  There are two basic concerns.  Obviously, the resulting sound is very important, but, the other concern is susceptibility to footfall issues.  Sometimes, suspended tables are more susceptible if the sharp impulse from footfall causes the spring suspension to bounce wildly.  This is most often a problem with what I consider lightly sprung tables that move up and down when only light pressure is applied to the plinth or platter (e.g. some JA Michell tables).  More stiffly sprung tables are less susceptible (e.g., the Basis Debut that I own).   The SOTA Sapphire is sort of medium stiffly sprung. If you don't have footfall issues, my bet would be that it will sound best on a very rigid platform which lets the suspension do what it is designed to do.  

ABSOLUTELY NOT! The Sapphire is an extremely stable turntable. All it needs is a sturdy shelf, nothing more. You will make it very difficult to use if you try placing it on an isolation platform. 

I own a Cosmos now and ran a Sapphire for 40 years. 

I have been party to the use of a Stethoscope to assist with identifying a lower noise being present when a Platter Spindle Bearing Modification has been carried out.

Comparing the noise floor between a Unmodified/Modified same model TT has shown substantial differences in noise floor, especially when Unmodified is not with a known service history for the Bearing Assembly.

When checking for the presence of noise related to a Mechanical Operation, my experiences are showing the following:

No Service History - Serviced - Modified, are the order that has shown quite large steps between each other in relation to the perception of noise floor being detected through the Stethoscope.

I have no knowledge of a Stethoscope being used for checking the influence of a Kinetic Energy being transferred and a poor decoupling method being adopted.  

Their support is excellent too...   Donna and Christan are great to deal with.  

I own several SOTA and I was just happy listen to the music on a piece of MDF.

get Stethoscope and listen to the machine while running listen to the base top then the platter still and tap on the surface it on.

Great buy the new SOTA quite nice.

I have a non suspended SOTA and it seems immune to footfalls and rumble….   The Sapphire should be well isolated from subsonic stuff.   Enjoy

Thorens makes an isolation pad made with layers of some kind of foam.  Check it out, it's only a couple hundred bucks.

I use a wall mount and that cured any issue 

I owned a SOTA Sapphire from the early 80’s, purchased new from the factory when it was still in downtown Oakland, CA by the Coliseum.   Nothing short of nuclear testing in the room would cause an audible issue.   That is a fabulous table.   I can’t speak for the current version, but I’d experiment with what you’ve got.   I wouldn’t be surprised to find that adding additional isolations does not help.

good luck and remember to just enjoy the music.

Soix, you do want the SOTA on a solid support, which is the road bed in my analogy. Perhaps think of a spring suspension that bounces at 2 cps. Now mount it on a spring suspended shelf that bounces at any different frequency. Can you see that the two suspensions will interact negatively? At some frequency the TT will be disturbed to a greater degree than if there’s only one suspension by energy coming from below the bottom suspension..

Thank for this discussion y'all. I'll have to read it again when the TT arrives. I'm just gonna start with the TT on the shelf, see how that goes, and then experiment with the Gingko platform. It's not spring-loaded, by the way, it's a platform (uncertain of material) that rests on rubber balls. The number of balls used depends on the weight of the TT. Anyway, thanks for the discussion!

I firmly believe there is only one Interface responsible for creating a energy to be transferred and converted into a electrical signal to undergo stages of amplification and ultimately be transferred into sound.

The only Interface responsible for creating a energy to be transferred and converted into a electrical signal is the Styli's Interface with the Groove Modulation.

How the energy being created for transfer is kept to be unadulterated comes from creating optimisation of other critical interfaces able to transfer energy.

When talking about Support Isolation the control is to reduce Ambient / Kinetic Energy being transferred into the Structure and ultimately impacting on the Styli in the Groove.

Mechanical Energies are at play as well, and the best Isolation Platform ever produced is not going to resolve mechanical energy transfer impacting on the Styli.

The conditions within the Platter Spindle Bearing Housing and hence the Platter being a conduit for transferral of energy, along with the Function of the Tonearm are contributors to energies being created that will impact on the Styli being able to produce a unadulterated signal.

The Vinyl LP as the Source material being in many cases eccentric in rotation and contaminated with impurities are also contributors to the Styli being impacted on in a detrimental manner.

Supporting a TT is only one consideration towards creating a optimised condition for the Styli / Groove Modulus Interface.

I listen to a Vinyl Source, where there is a confidence three out of four of the items are addressed to a successful optimisation.

Additional to this the Geometry for the Styli to be optimised is in my view very well cared for as well.

Improving Eccentricity of the LP is one I have not spent too much energy to use corrective measures or monies on to resolve.     

Now put your sedan on a flatbed trailer, strap it down to the bed, and ride in your car while someone else drives the trailer down the same highway. The trailer has its own suspension with its own spring rates and damping.

@lewm But the SOTA is already on another flatbed truck that is the shelf/cabinet that has its own issues and further depends on the quality of that unit so yet another unknown. Would you rather have your car on a flatbed truck with a spring suspension or on one with no springs in the suspension at all and have your car beat to sh*t? The only question is if the vibrations from the cabinet are more harmful than using spring-based footers realizing that both have issues. Neither you nor I can answer that for sure given all the variables at play here, which is why it’s still worth at least trying.  You’ve got an awesome system BTW. 

In my experiences and one that has not involved spending $0000's on a Sub Support for a TT, there are methods that will tidy the TT's presentation up.

After introducing other TT set Ups to methods selected by myself, there in not a ubiquitous method that works equally in the environments where loaned support methods have been demonstrated and offered up for extended loan periods.

The method adopted that has the most success in relation to my experiences and the one that is today superseding all others used in the past, is to used a Sub Plinth produced from a Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood, produced with a Cross Grain Structure, with a Thickness of 25mm (1").

The Densified Wood Board depending on weight to be mounted as a TT> DW Boards combined weight has been to use a Pneumatic Footer under/over DW Board, such as a AT 616 footer. Other Brands are available and will do similar as a footer, I have heard them in comparison and know there are valuable similarities.

If TT weight is not too much of a concern, the Solid Tech 'Feet of Silence' with a O Ring suspension has been the most valuable footer used for tidying the overall presentation up.

As a side, I firmly stand by the notion proposed by myself on the odd occasion, that the  Aluminium Base used for mounting the TT's Parts and then Suspended on the Sota, will be substantially upgraded if substituted for a Phenolic Resin Impregnated Wood Board similar to the constriction method already referred to. 

I said nothing for or against the Ginkgo Cloud or other solid or semi-solid support systems designed to absorb energy sans springs or soft rubber mounts. (At least, I don’t think the Gingko uses springs; I could be wrong there, and if I am wrong, then I would not use the Gingko under a SOTA tt.) Yes, you DO have a way of knowing without trying (contrary to your sentence above) why spring on spring can be a very bad idea. (It’s never a "good" idea but by chance one might not create serious problems.) Just read up on Simple Harmonic Motion and spring rates, etc. Can you get away with it and using subjective judgement go away thinking there is a benefit? Sure. Happens all the time in this hobby. Consider this thought experiment: you have a nice modern sedan that has a spring and damper suspension conducive to a nice smooth ride down a typical imperfect highway.  Now put your sedan on a flatbed trailer, strap it down to the bed, and ride in your car while someone else drives the trailer down the same highway.  The trailer has its own suspension with its own spring rates and damping. You will be tossed around a lot more in your car tied to the trailer than you were when your own suspension was ameliorating bumps in the road.

I’m not saying it’s perfect, but adding a second independent spring suspension to the closed system can only interfere with its function.

@lewm Due respect, but you can’t know that as there are too many variables such as it’s not spring on spring — it’s spring, footer, plinth, then the sprung suspension.  There’s no mathematical or physical model for that combination, and there’s no way of knowing how the resonance frequency of the footer springs would interact with that of the suspension, so again just too many unknowns.  And as you say, the SOTA suspension isn’t perfect so the big/ultimate question is really if significantly minimizing shelf vibrations could have significant benefits that may (or may not) outweigh any negative spring resonance effects and absolutely no way of knowing that without trying.  If it’s me I’d try the spring footers just because no risk/cost to do so then I’d try a thick butcher block that’s cheap as well, and then I’d try something like a Ginkgo Cloud or other absorptive platform and see which combo sounds best.  Always fun to experiment and learn, and often the results can be surprising and counterintuitive.  It’s kinda like implementing room treatments and figuring out the right combination of absorption and diffusion — you can digest all the theory you want, but you’ll never know unless you just try different combinations for your specific situation.  Anyway, at the very least there’s some good food for thought for the OP to chew on here.

Spring on Spring is not without risk of very high gain low frequency feedback as constructive and destructive resonance will happen… Look for ( failed ) example of double sprung car suspension…. but hey…. 

Do whatever you want. But do realize that the built in spring suspension of the SOTA is there to filter out all the stuff you’re talking about where it counts, before it can disturb the platter/bearing/tonearm/cartridge. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but adding a second independent spring suspension to the closed system can only interfere with its function. This is demonstrable with math and physics, not just a matter of my opinion.

The Merrill Heirloom TT has a spring suspension and I use the GEM Dandy 

60 Durometer Decoupling Foot under my table , at the same time I use a wall mount TT platform to totally eliminate footfall vibrations from a wood floor .

One can jump up and down or play the music loud with the deepest bass notes without issue .

@lewm  Ok, fair enough.  But the shelf itself still vibrates, which is why people use isolation devices on a shelf, under a cabinet, etc.  The question then becomes which is worse, the vibrations from the shelf or the potential resonance from the spring footers.  That’s not knowable until you try, and since there’s zero risk again I ask, why not?

Interesting question. My intuition says springs on springs would make for interactions and very different resonant frequences which sounds like a bad thing. But I don’t know the physics in great enough detail to be able to say for certain and I have never tried it.

The only thing I can say for certain is my sprung Linn LP12 benefited greatly from the Silent Running Audio Ohio Class platform I had made for it. That platform does not use springs. Great combo. Unfortunately it costs sbout the same price as the table.

Soix, your reasoning is faulty. The substructure of the SOTA that sits on a shelf can be considered for our purposes to be part of the shelf. The platter, bearing, and tonearm are still suspended from springs. If you then add a base that itself is spring supported, you introduce an independent resonance to the system. The two different spring rates and resonant frequencies will likely cause problems

Try it both ways, but if you can deal with the ascetics consider a wall mount TT shelf centered above the bookshelf unit your components rest on.

DeKay

@lewm Interesting.  I guess I’d think this may still be at least worth a try because the SOTA’s feet are not spring loaded and thus physically separate from the springs located within the ‘table itself so it’s not directly springs on springs.  I’d actually think if the spring footers can reduce vibrations getting to the springs in the SOTA’s suspension that could be a potential benefit.  Anyway, they’re only 29 bucks and can easily be returned to Amazon so no risk to try, and especially with tweaks like this you really never know til you try — kinda like cables.

Never combine springs with springs. The SOTA is already spring suspended.

Obviously isolation can be hit or miss but can almost always help once you find the right type.  You can shoot the lights out and pay up for something like a Townshend Seismic product and almost certainly get a significant improvement, but it comes at a price.  Alternatively you could just try something like this on the cheap and see if it works and if not just return it to Amazon, so why not?  Several people here have used these to good effect.  Just a couple thoughts to ponder, and congrats on the excellent new ‘table!

https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Aluminum-Speakers-Isolation-Amplifiers/dp/B07K9ZYP84