SOTA NOVA, HR-X VPI, Technics 1200G recommendations?

For anyone who has ever tried playing the Telarc record of Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Symphony knows that if the tonearm/cartridge combo isn’t right, that tonearm is going to skate across the record when the cannons fire.  Very exciting record. 

And don't forget that you can't use dynamic compliance measured at 100Hz (all Japanese cartridges) for calculations! 

All calculations must be made with 10Hz compliance figure only. So the compliance must be converted first from 100Hz to 10Hz. Japanese manufacturers never publish compliance figure at 10Hz. 

That’s right what chakster said.  

May I interject here that if you want to use a low compliance LOMC, and there are many fine sounding examples, then a tonearm with high effective mass is not an evil; it is a necessity both for best SQ and preservation of the LP.  Furthermore, VTF and stylus shape are more determinants of LP wear than is the low compliance/high effective mass class of playback equipment, although I too prefer the opposite in general based on listening.

HR-X with a VPI fixed gimble 3D arm.  Then consider a SoundSmith Xephyr MIMC * cartridge.  When your settled on the table and cart, get a Herron VTPH-2a phono stage.  

That should take care of your vinyl front-end.

I have been looking at Technics 1200G and did some thinking about much more expensive Technics TT such as SP10MKII, SP 10MK3, SP10R. From what I can see the new 1200G has a rock solid speed. If the expensive TTs are not much better than 1200G in speed stability, then they must be better in motor vibration and plinth/feet isolation mainly. Is this the right way of thinking about this?

I think Technics philosophy is very simple:


1) compact plug and play unit is new 1200 series (great price from $900 per unit like mk7, $1700 for GR and $3500 for G).


2) reference “R” series for people who would like to use their own plinth, different tonearms (2 or even 3 at the same time) they have just the drive (SP-10R) with external power supply. The motor is the same as 1200G series. And when the buyer would like “everything reference class” from Technics they got complete system called SL1000R with SP10R drive, plinth, tonearm.


In my opinion, people who always blabling something about “vibration” are living in the earthquake area, probably right on top of the vulcano or very close, becase I really don’t understand what they are talking about!? Using over 6 turntables at home I never ever noticed any audible problem with vibration, I’m using custom made metal racks on parquet floor. 

Vibration is a problem on the dancefloor packed with 500 jumping people near 10 000 watts sound system - this is where turntable definitely must be seriously isolated. But even there you will see Technics DD in use!

But at home, when it’s just you and your system .... What vibrations are you guys talking about? Manufacturer already solved everything for home use when turntable was designed by professional engineers. They got their isolation feet (dramatically upgraded 1200 new series), also on SL1200 they can be replaced with isonoe suspended feet if needed.


In this high-end industry nobody want “good enough”, they always want “better”, but then it’s the road to infinity if you have money to pay more and more

Lewm would be talking about me. And there are several issues which he and I have fundamentally opposite views. 

An isolated turntable like the SOTA is very obviously better at protecting against foot fall skipping which on anything other than a concrete floor can be a problem for analog lovers. Having to tip toe around is aggravating. DJ's use DD tables because of the torque which they need to slip "Q" and create other effects. Dance floors are usually concrete so, there is never an issue with foot fall skipping. Isolating the cartridge from extraneous "vibration" is critical for the best sonic performance. The cartridge is a very sensitive vibration measurement device. It will gladly pick up any vibration passed through the turntable or even the air. IMHO isolation is more important than the utmost in speed stability. The difference between the best belt drives and DD tables is extremely minor and by all accounts inaudible. Those of you who do not have suspended turntables place your tonearm down on a stationary record and turn the volume up. Go look at your woofer. I will be bouncing to one degree or another. That is environmental rumble. It will occur even on concrete floors. If you have a properly suspended turntable your woofer will remain in neutral position without any movement. Subwoofer users are going to be more sensitive to this for obvious reasons. Lewm does not use subwoofers. Airborne vibration is also a problem and might possibly be the reason some people prefer heavy tonearms and stiff cartridges as they will be less affected by this than light arms and compliant cartridges. The solution to this is an isolated dust cover, hearing protection for your cartridge. The Sota offers both a well designed suspension and an isolated dust cover. Lewm had an older Sota that apparently had speed stability issues. His table may have had issues but, that issue, if it was one, has been permanently solved by Sota's new drive train which will hold on to 331/3rd like a pitbull. On top of this Sota offers vacuum clamping which in the opinion of many is the best way to hold a record down, remove minor warps and dampen the record. 
How much of a sonic difference does all this make? No idea. I have never run that comparison. You would have to put the same tonearm and cartridge on an example of each type of turntable and make an AB comparison playing identical copies of the same record. Would be fun to do. The rags are not interested in proving anything at the cost of losing a advertiser.  We have to do this sort of thing ourselves to learn anything and it is expensive. However, the foot fall problem is painfully obvious and there can be no question that a properly designed suspension solves this problem.

Dance floors are usually concrete so, there is never an issue with foot fall skipping.

Usually wooden floor if we’re talking about nice small venues, but there is an issue with floor shaking (or stage shaking) if it’s not a warehouse with concrete floor or a club in the basement. But in all those public venues at least 100 people are moving and dancing.

When we are listening at home we’re normally in the listening chair and nothing going on. 1-3 people chilling in the room while some record spinning on the turntable. I assume we have a good wooden table or a metal/wooded rack on spikes for turntable and I believe there are no neighbors hammering the floor or the wall while we are listening to the music. So what kind of vibrations audiophiles are talking about ? On microscopic level it must be absolutely irrelevant for a proper turntable, because it was designed for use just like this without anything special under the table. 

Mijo, I don’t know which of my posts you’re referencing but my last post was just to remind us why sometimes high effective mass is necessary and that low compliance with high mass is in my opinion not the prime cause of record wear so long as VTF is comparable to that of a typical higher compliance cartridge, eg, 2g or less. I don’t think you’d disagree. I want no part of arguing about suspension vs no suspension. There are too many variables.

Having the removable head shell with a few twists of the screw, and putting on a new head shell, and only having to take 3-5 minutes adjusting the weight is so nice.
we use 4 different head shells and this is a huge plus!

@lewm 

In what way is Technics SP-10 MK3 better than MK2? Is the SQ difference dramatic?

Mk3 then Mk2 was not the best of the rest in my system to my ears.

In my opinion, people who always blabling something about “vibration” are living in the earthquake area, probably right on top of the vulcano or very close, ***becase I really don’t understand what they are talking about***!? Using over 6 turntables at home I never ever noticed any audible problem with vibration, I’m using custom made metal racks on parquet floor.

Vibration is a problem on the dancefloor packed with 500 jumping people near 10 000 watts sound system - this is where turntable definitely must be seriously isolated. But even there you will see Technics DD in use!

@chakster  (Emphasis added above) This is what they are talking about:


If you really want to hear what your recordings actually sound like, controlling vibration in the turntable is paramount to that goal. I'm not talking about people on a dance floor, I'm talking about vibration induced in the turntable by the loudspeakers. In a nutshell, if your system sounds harsher at higher volumes particularly when playing LPs, this is something to look at! The vibration need not be very much, in fact it might be microscopic. But so is the groove of the LP.


To this end, if the platter is able to vibrate in a different way from the base of the tonearm, this will enable to the pickup to see that vibration and it will induce a coloration. To prevent this, the platter surface and base of the tonearm must be coupled in a very rigid and acoustically dead manner. In this way the platter and base of the arm will vibrate in the same plane if it vibrate, this preventing the vibration from being picked up by the cartridge.

Well, maybe because I never used a shitty turntables in my system, also made custom racks exclusively for them. And with a good metal mats on my direct drives everything was good. 

@chakster,  Michael Fremer liked some carbon fiber mat on Technics 1200G. Do you think CU-180 is better? How do you handle warped records? Periphery ring?

Thank you Ralph. In addition the cartridge is on a pivoted tonearm with it's own suspension and vibration characteristics. Noise in the room will affect the tonearm differently than it will the chassis creating a differential the cartridge could certainly pick up. With vibration passed through the bass such as foot fall the base is actually doing the moving and the chassis sits still in the same position in space. 
@chakster, if you have 100 people dancing on a bad floor the Technics will fail badly. DJs use them because they are cheap and they have a lot of torque. Not to mention that they put an oscillating magnetic device right under a very sensitive magnetic pick-up. No scientist in his right mind would ever do such a silly thing:-)  

Just stop repeating the "oscillating magnetic device" meme, please, and the rest of your thesis would be less indigestible.  You seem to think that the engineers who designed these devices were idiots unaware of EMI and the use of shielding materials.  First of all or maybe last of all, a motor is not "oscillating" in the formal sense of the word. 

I could say how can "they" use an compliant belt to drive a platter with an outboard motor and then mount the platter and tonearm on a sprung subassembly, whilst mounting the motor on a solid unsuspended support?  Isn't that a recipe for speed instability? But I won't say that.

@chakster, if you have 100 people dancing on a bad floor the Technics will fail badly. DJs use them because they are cheap and they have a lot of torque. Not to mention that they put an oscillating magnetic device right under a very sensitive magnetic pick-up. No scientist in his right mind would ever do such a silly thing:-)

@mijostyn I’m been playing vintage records for over 25 years and got paid for this job, traveled all over Europe and the whole Russia, worked on radiostations and hosted my own radioshow, invited artists from Japan, Europe and USA to spin rare Soul records in my town. I also produced records pressed in Detroit on the same pressing plant where Motown pressed their Soul in the 60s. I’ve been using Technics all my life and still have a pair of upgraded SL1210mk2 (they are not in my main system). I was surrounded by dancing people all my life and they danced to the 70’s Soul 45s played with Grado DJ200i MI cartridges on Technics turntables, when we hosted our own Soul parties I brought my external Grado phono stages and edjusted EQs of the main system by myself or with a help of professionals. Even in the early 90s when SL1210mk2 retail in Panasonic stores in Russia was $450 it wasn’t cheap at all. Now a brand new mk7 cost 3 times as much locally and it’s not cheap for ‘normal people’. Isonoe footers designed to solve bass feedback on old SL1200, but Technics redesigned their stock feet on new mk7, GR, G. Needles does not skip at 2g tracking force even if 100 people dancing in front of the deejay in the bar on wooden floor. Same with cheaper Pioneer PLX-1000 turntable for example (I tried when i was in Paris).

Before super powerful and stable Technics SL1200mk2 became a Disco standard worldwide, Garrard and Thorens were DJ turntables! In Studio 54 in NYC you can see Thorens, and Garrard were everywhere in UK. Technics put them into dust forever.

A lonely audiophile sitting alone in front of his system in the dark corner of his room and still thinking about vibration from outer space or what??? I don’t know why people think those butchers wooden block is necessary under their turntables, properly designed turntable is already very well isolated for home listening (they are heavy) if you are not place them right on subwoofer.

My Luxman PD-444 in the main system is quite heavy, suspended, sitting on superheavy metal rack on spikes. No feedback or vibrations that I can detect.

@chakster,  Michael Fremer liked some carbon fiber mat on Technics 1200G. Do you think CU-180 is better? How do you handle warped records? Periphery ring?

I don't have warped records in my collection, I use weight or clamp on top. 

Mr. Fremer do not review vintage analog gear, you can read his opinion only about new gear available today from dealers, shops etc. 

Micro CU-180 designed in the 70s, you can read about it from audio enthusiasts on various forums, but not from professional reviewers like Mr. Fremer. 

I have all 3 mats that I like:

1. SAEC SS-300 -very nice aluminum lighweight mat 
2. MICRO CU-180 -very expensive superheavy vintage copper mat

3. The Mat from Sakura Systems - this is brand new graphite mat for $250 


Do not overestimate the importance of turntable mat, mat will never change the sound as much as a cartridge for example. 

@chungjh, 
While I agree w/ @chakster that mats won't affect sound as much as a cartridge, IMHE, they have a fairly significant impact on Technics tables and are worthwhile.

When I owned my SP10mk2, @dgarretson came over with his superheavy CU-180 mat, a heavy steel mat and we tried both together. I also tried Funk Achromat, Boston carbon mat, and a couple of others not worth remembering. Every one sounded different. Generally, higher mass was best, up until the point where too much started to strain the motor(two heavy metal mats together). When I pondered the ~$800 cost and limited availability of the CU-180 mat, I couldn't justify the expense. Better to go lower cost and invest more in cartridge, etc. That led to...

I turned to Tran Van Tan, a Vietnamese analog machinist, whose TVT Analog Shop makes custom parts for mostly vintage tables. His 2 layer copper/stainless mat was made to meet my requirements for mass & height and was beautifully made for $250. For me a good balance in sound improvement and value. Can't recommend him enough.  He has many photos on his site that will instantly make an impression http://tvtanalogshop.com/   
@chakster with all your vintage stuff, he may be a good resource in the future for you.

Back to your warps question, the Technics platter shape is not friendly to most ring clamps. I gave up on that with mine. Now that my Sota has vacuum and the Sota Reflex clamp, warps are conquered without a second thought. Cheers,

Spencer

I have a perfect original Micro Seiki CU-180, actually two of them at the moment. The price only goes up every year. It’s very hard to find CU-180 without scratches. Not interested in replicas, I like vintage original gear in mint condition. It makes me happy :)) 

@sbank 

Thanks for the TVT recommendation. I just sent him an email. Which SOTA do you have? How does it compare with the old Technics?

@chungjh,

I answered that for you in some detail one pg 1 of this thread,
05-23-2021 11:03am.
The Sota is here: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/133

Cheers,
Spencer

I have mentioned this before: I had a pure copper made for me by a machinist, for my L07D.  It weighs about 6 lbs, which is not a stretch from the stock stainless steel mat that comes with the L07D and weighs about 5.5 lbs.  With a copper mat on an SP10 Mk2, I cannot rule out that at least some of the perceived benefit may derive from the enhanced shielding effect of copper.  Just a hunch; no data except listening to my long gone Mk2.

May be another benefit of the copper disc is that it may discharge some electrostatic charge build up?

@lewm , We fully agree that a low compliance cartridge benefits from a high mass arm. Stylus shape and VTF certainly influence record wear. However, given the same stylus shape and the same VTF the low compliance/high mass combination will have accelerated record wear vs the high compliance/low mass pair. You and I both prefer higher compliance lower mass combinations. 
My aversion to direct drive turntables comes from pretty extensive listening tests back in the late 70's early 80's. The universal opinion was that direct drive turntables sounded inferior to the best belt drive turntables. There were various theories of why this might be, none of them proven that I know of. I do know that isolating the turntable from everything else going on around it including the music is very important.
The degree to which suspended turntables do this is pretty easy to see and measure. Consequently I will never own a direct drive turntable and I will never own a turntable that does not have an adequate suspension. 
I have one more issue, fuel to add to the fire. Turntables are a prime target for flippant design, The Clearaudio Statement is a great example. 
There is no advantage in making a turntable look cool. It is just a total waste of money. It has nothing to do with sound, purely visual. Mechanical artwork. Other manufacturers followed suite. IMHO the very best turntable made is the Dohmann Helix. Still very expensive but plain, unassuming in comparison to other tables in that price range. I also think Mark Dohmann has the right approach to turntable design. 
I'm sorry if I seem to be a stuck record when it comes to the influence of a motor near a cartridge. Electro-mechanical devises have a way of influencing each other  especially in close proximity. If you put the close together no amount of shielding is going to stop that interaction. 

My aversion to direct drive turntables comes from pretty extensive listening tests back in the late 70's early 80's. The universal opinion was that direct drive turntables sounded inferior to the best belt drive turntables. 

Where is the list of Direct Drive turntables you are talking about? After 30-40 years did you ever try again? 

"There is no advantage in making a turntable look cool. It is just a total waste of money. It has nothing to do with sound, purely visual. Mechanical artwork."

Are you saying that it is fine for a Porsche to look like a Toyota as long as the performance is Porsche? Some people get a jolt of dopamine from the form as much as from the function.

Chungjh, that is obviously true of cars although I have put a reservation down on a cybertruck arguably the ugliest vehicle ever conceived. I also use a 911 as a daily driver a form follows function car if ever there was one.
As far as a turntable is concerned performance trumps everything including looks. If you are buying a turntable for looks perhaps you are not an audiophile? 
@chakster, You expect me to remember models from 30-40 years ago?
Lets put it this way, they were so bad that it scared me out of direct drives forever. The designers that I have the most confidence in also shied away from direct drive like Mark Dohmann, David Fletcher and AJ Conti. There is no direct drive table that meets my requirements particularly when it comes to isolation. Technics turntables are like Toyota cars, very reliable reasonably well made pedestrian fair. Over the 30 years I have been out of the audio business nothing much has change that would get me interested enough to consider buying one although there are several newcomers on the market that make interesting products it is rare for me to purchase something from a small newbie that has yet to establish themselves in the market. Besides I am perfectly happy with the turntable I just purchased. It is right at the point of diminishing returns and does everything I need a turntable to do. The next turntable in line would be the Dohmann Helix 2, a substantially more expensive turntable. 
I put my money where my mouth is. I could have easily purchased an SP10R. 

I had never heard of Dohmann until you mentioned it. Actually, it looks very nice. You can tell it is expensive.

I don’t care what car do you have, but you can’t even remember the names of the turntables and your experience with some unknown direct drive is from the 70s!

Reference direct drive are all from Japan from Denon, Victor, Pioneer, Technics... I assume you neved tried any good Japanese direct drive from those brands, I want to remind you that top models from those brand were extremely expensive in the 70s/80s.

Also Direct Drive are not the same. Drive itself does not have a sound and what you hear is a sound of tonearm/cartridge.

You can recall your cartridges and tonearms maybe? @mijostyn

I'm using cork and rubber now.

so it's worthwhile to get the copper 'Matt' for all direct drives or just sp 10? or can I use carbon Matt? 

Copper mat cost more than your turntable (if you don’t have something special), look at the price for Artisan Fidelity new pure copper mat, it’s $1200.

Micro Seiki CU-180 in Mint condition will cost the same, but it was made 40 years ago in Japan (so it’s rare). 1.8kg is too heavy for some turntables. I’m using CU-180 on Luxman PD-444 and it’s superb mat!

For $250 you can buy graphite mat from Sakura System (latest version of Boston Audio Mat) and it’s great mat too, but without wow factor of Micro Seiki.

SAEC SS-300 Is great vintage mat with much more complicated design than Sakura System “The Mat”. SAEC is amazing mat and it cost $350-550 when condition is like new.


Rubber is worst ever material for the mat, and cork is just like $15 felt mat (it’s really nothing).

Chakster, I have much more important things to do besides remember the names and models of turntables we all dismissed as being Japanese garbage. Actually, now that I think of it I do not own one piece of Japanese equipment not even a cartridge or a car. Guess I have not forgiven them for WW2 yet. To much mysticism in their gear for me. Do you bow down to your turntable every time you turn it on? Might be a good idea. I can understand the Idler wheel guys. There was a day when the British made the absolute best. Someday you will hear the light and get yourself a decent turntable. It will be fun to hear all those antique cartridges for real and not mutilated by magnetic fields:-) 

A solid mat is just as bad as a mat that is too soft. 

ceramic mat from audio technica Wil prolly be very bad right. 

I think that's why luxman pd 121a I'm using sound so different from rest of dd. the speed control. is soso.. but the platter is thick and heavy. and somewhat more quiet..quite a shocker when the result is very natural highly detailed and round.. even with a cheap MM. eleptical. 

makes sense to me.. 

Well nothing new from you, it's not necessary to mention your 911 car in every post about turntables, cars and turntables are not related to each other. If you like a turntable that looks like coffin with a belt then it's nothing but your own preferences.

You're right, I forgot you're still listening to 78 rpm, just like during the World War 1 :)) 

So when you compare your current Sota to something you can't even remember (and do not own anymore) it's very "helpful" for others. It's a perfect test, the only problem is that it's just in your imagination.   

If you will look at the images of turntables and some other audio gear that I like, you will see only state of the art design. Even if it's old it's still like new, I do not buy junk. Works flawless for me for many years, no problem. 

You can cut yourself a mat from a piece of paper if you like it soft :)

But I would rather buy another Micro CU-500 Copper Mat if I can find it in MINT condition.    

I see one common problem in modern equipment, most of the designers have no taste (imo). 

Regarding "antique" cartridges, let me show you my latest purchase, believe it of not, but it's modern Shelter 5000 LOMC. I think it's beautiful. 

 

I think that’s why luxman pd 121a I’m using sound so different from rest of dd. the speed control. is soso.. but the platter is thick and heavy. and somewhat more quiet..quite a shocker when the result is very natural highly detailed and round.. even with a cheap MM. eleptical.

Never tried PD-121, my only Luxman is their top PD-444.
SAEC is the best for Luxman platter because the platter edge is higher than its inner side. SAEC is the opposite (look here). And this is a top side.

Micro CU-180 diameter can be too big (there is a little tolerance in diameter according to the manual), sometimes it can’t fit! This is my cu-180 on my lux platter. And the side view.

And Sakura Systems THE MAT is just perfect for LUX platter size.

Mijo, What we disagree on is the idea that a typical spring-suspended turntable is the sine qua non of turntable isolation.  I fully agree that isolation from environmental energy is important, and we agree on the why of it.  But I don't think the SOTA as prototype is the best way to go about isolating a turntable from the environment.  And I have stated the reason for my opinion several times:  With all such systems, and the SOTA is not much different from the now ancient and much loved AR turntable of yore and all its descendants (albeit the SOTA is far more advanced), the designer has a choice.  Either the motor is suspended along with the tonearm and bearing/platter, or it is mounted on solid footing, so it does not couple energy into the working elements.  If the motor is suspended, then a major source of noise (and here I am talking about mechanical energy, not EMI) is coupled into the platter.  Belt drive motors must operate at higher rotational speeds so as to maintain platter speed, compared to any dd motor, and what's more there will be a side force on both the platter and the motor pulley which eventually needs to extraneous noise due to the long term effects of friction, so I think that is why most designers of spring-suspended turntables adopt the other option, having the motor on solid ground, so to speak.  But when the motor is mechanically separated from the driven elements, there will be motion of one relative to the other.  If the belt is at all compliant, then there will be speed inconstancy owing to the stretching and relaxing of the belt as vibrational energy is absorbed.  You like to talk about the 80s and 90s, when "everyone" figured out that belt-drive turntables were superior to direct-drive, but I would posit that what happened in those decades, besides the near total demise of vinyl, was the result of a propaganda barrage from the industry, not excluding the magazines. It was and is just so much easier to build a low end belt-drive turntable that everyone was and still is doing it.  I was there, and I was swept up in it for a number of years, just as you were.  Now some of the modern and expensive belt-drives do the suspension right, including the Dohmann Helix.  I think that's a great turntable but I would rather not afford it.  I would further point out that there are sophisticated methods by which to isolate a non-suspended DD turntable that in my opinion can have an effect at least equal to springs but without the negatives.  So to be clear, by not liking spring-suspended belt-drives, I would not want to be seen to believe that isolation is trivial.

My aversion to direct drive turntables comes from pretty extensive listening tests back in the late 70's early 80's. The universal opinion was that direct drive turntables sounded inferior to the best belt drive turntables. There were various theories of why this might be, none of them proven that I know of. I do know that isolating the turntable from everything else going on around it including the music is very important.

@mijostyn  I remember when direct drive was getting that bad rap. It turned out that there are good direct drive tts and bad ones, just like there are class D amps that sound terrible and others that are great. It depends on design and execution.

The thing that Technics always had going for them was a robust research and development department since they are owned by Panasonic.  Turns out that control theory, if properly applied, can work on a turntable no worries- with less speed variation than any belt drive ever made. They've not lost that expertise! While I don't doubt that you heard some inferior DD turntables, and some of them even lower priced Technics that were bad, you'd do well to disabuse yourself of your anecdotes and take a serious listen to either the 1200G or SP10R, either equipped with the tonearm of your choice.


I've done that and its the reason we stopped selling our Atma-Sphere 208, which is very speed stable for a belt-drive machine. The Technics is simply better- and for less money. I have to admit I like our plinth better but Technics did a very good job on theirs (in the SL1200G, not so much the SP10R IMO).

@chakster 

When you flip your record, do you stop the turntable each time? On my old SOTA, I just grabbed the record while the platter was turning and flip it. With hard surfaces like copper, I am thinking it would damage the record if you grab it while the platter is still turning.

Jay, Yeah, but with a good DD, there is a brake that stops the platter on a dime, and it takes seconds to get back up to speed.  So stopping the rotation in order to change or turn over the LP is not going to cause any extra delay. 

Along the lines of Atma-sphere's theme, besides the SP10R or the SL1200G, very few DD aficionados these days use the OEM plinths that were supplied along with the typical DD turntable in the vintage days.  I personally favor high mass and constrained layer damping, along with an energy absorbent shelf that could do its work by any of several modalities. Heck, I wouldn't even look down on a spring-supported shelf if done properly.  MC seems to have done that. Nor do most use the thick rubber mats that also were normal fare in days of yore.  Those definitely killed the sound.  (See also the many posts by Chakster and others regarding preferable mats.)

Lew,

I wasn't so much worried about the delay but the stress of constant starting/stopping on the motor.

There is no stress at all for DD motor, but if you don’t want to scratch your record sirface on a metal mats (flipping it when the platter is on) you have to press stop button first. If your mat is felt mat (slipmat) you don’t have to worry about it, because felt mat can’t damage your vinyl even if you will rotate the record to opposite direction on the spinning plater. This is why deejay using felt mats only (slipmats) on Technics.


I don’t use felt mats on any of my turntables in the main system, so I can flip the records only when rotation is off.

@lewm, I though your problem with your Sota was speed variation? The Sota's suspension lacks real damping so it will bounce if you get it started but since the sub chassis is enclosed that does not represent much of a problem. The MinusK platforms are not dampened either. People have complained of them bouncing if you lean on them. The heavy mass approach does not work well at all. Place you tonearm down on a record with the turntable off. Watch the woofer or subwoofer move. In you case it would be the diaphragm if you can see it. Have someone jump on the floor while you observe the woofer. With the Sota you will see nothing. That is working pretty good in my book. 
@atmasphere , I know Ralph, that is why I always reference my opinion as coming from the distant past. I just love rubbing chakster the wrong way:-)  The real issue for me is because of my long term use of subwoofers with ESLs isolation is more important to me than absolute speed accuracy although Sota's new drive seems to be very close to DD standards none of them have a suspension I would care to run with subwoofers and mine run 5 dB up from zero at 20 Hz which is what it takes to load the room correctly. I have had solid plinth tables here to set up for friends and even with a concrete floor the subwoofer drivers flutter.
I'm sure your plinth was better. If you have one of your turntables around it would be interesting to install Sota's Eclipse system and see what you get. If the wow and flutter are down at 0.03% or even less than 0.05% I can't see how you could want better than that. I think the SP10R is down around 0.02%. That difference is totally inaudible where as lack of a suspension is totally audible.

I wasn’t so much worried about the delay but the stress of constant starting/stopping on the motor.

Doan worry aboutit.

There’s no problem at all in this regard- we’d know about it by now; Technics motors have been running fine for decades.

The real issue for me is because of my long term use of subwoofers with ESLs isolation is more important to me than absolute speed accuracy

I’ve used Technics with Sound Labs and they are really happy together! But I also use a good equipment stand, equipped with proper anti-vibration platforms, not just for the turntable but the preamp too. My speakers go to 20Hz perfectly flat (they are about 3db down at 15 Hz) and no worries with low frequency noise interacting with the Technics! For the record, years ago we used to have a page on our website called the ’Atma-Sphere Bass of the Year’ which was a list of recordings we used to show off bass response and impact. The Technics sails effortlessly through that!

I think the SP10R is down around 0.02%. That difference is totally inaudible where as lack of a suspension is totally audible.

You don’t hear speed variation of 0.05% as a pitch change as its too subtle. But you do hear it as a slight ’shimmer’ in the soundstage, since speed variation causes a radially tracking arm to oscillate side to side in the groove (due to the variation in skating forces). It really is something to hear how a Technics sorts that particular phenomena out! Reel to reel tape does not have this issue since speed variation does not affect the output of either channel. So it has a ’locked in’ soundstage that is a bit of a trick for turntables- but the Technics pulls it off with ease.


Try it you’ll like it!

@atmasphere, Ralph, I just bought a new Sota so another turntable is not going to happen in the near future. I will listen for a "shimmer" in the sound stage. DD turntables have always speced well in regards to speed stability. That was not enough to help them years ago. It would be fun to have one in my system for a sort while to hear a modern one but nobody I know has one. There are other issues however. I am sold on vacuum clamping which is not provided with any DD table I am aware of. A suspended plinth I can easily make. 

@mijostyn  You'll want to be careful using the vacuum system! I had a Sota Cosmos some years back that damaged the LP surface held against the platter pad. Dusting both sides before playing didn't fix it. Later, Sota changed the surface of the platter pad to be softer, which also changed the sound of the turntable. When I got our model 208 to sound better in every way I let the Cosmos go. For the record I've no idea how they handle this now.


You are incorrect about the speed stability of properly executed DD machines- there is a very good reason the Technics SP10MkIII holds a high value on eBay- its a performer and takes any belt drive machine to task. The new SP10R and SL1200G do too.


The reason that it 'was not enough to help them years ago' is due to misinformation and nothing more- I know, I fell victim to that same misinformation.