SOTA NOVA, HR-X VPI, Technics 1200G recommendations?

lucky me u said that..@chakster. nearly bought the cu platter lol thanks

I have been happily using a SOTA Star Sapphire turntable since the 80’s. It replaced an AR Turntable (yes, I am that old) and later a very modesty priced Techniques. The later were rather susceptible to footsteps on my old wood floor. However, it sounds like this is no longer an issue for the high-end models. I do have my turntable on a butcher block slab with high-tech footers, but I have never tried to do an A/B comparison without them (too lazy, I guess). Also, I never compared my SOTA to a Techniques or VPI. I recently upgraded to the Cosmos using a refurbished SME VI arm and a Soundsmith Paula cartridge. If you are still considering a SOTA , you might give them a call. I enjoy my conversations with Donna, talking about audio and anything else. She was very fond of the Jelco 750 and Hana cartridge combination as well as a Dynavector. For the well funded, she liked the Origin Live arm as well. Good Luck.

Ralph it was not misinformation. We had several of them from different manufacturers in the store and we compared them at length with SP 12's and a Goldmund Table. They were all lifeless in comparison and all of us heard the same thing. I sold a bunch of them at Luskin's and had I don't know how many people complain of the way they sounded. Luskin's was a box store that never took anything back unless it was defective out of the box. Not sounding good did not qualify back then. Nothing like having to deal with a pissed off customer. At Sound Components we did not have that problem. We sold everyone LP12's .

As for Sota's vacuum clamping system there are two important details. 1st is a much better mat that matches the mechanical impedance of vinyl. Second is the compressor switches automatically to a low pressure mode once the record is clamps. This puts much less vacuum on the record and also saves the compressor from having to do a lot of work. It is perfectly safe but, you can still buy a Cosmos without it. On top of this the new Cosmos has a magnetic thrust bearing like the Clearaudio turntables abolishing bearing wear and halving the noise. Then there is the Eclipse drive system (which I have not heard yet) which by all accounts is extremely accurate and stable. Rumble is a more serious consideration for me than the difference between 0.02 and 0.03% wow and flutter. Then there is a fine suspension and an isolated dust cover. These are all items I have to have. I can make them myself but my wife would rather keep me building cabinets and furnisher. I could have bought an SP10R used the same turntable and built a suspended plinth with a dustcover. I chose not to. Old habits die hard.

They were all lifeless in comparison and all of us heard the same thing. I sold a bunch of them at Luskin’s and had I don’t know how many people complain of the way they sounded.

There can be a lot of variables and especially back then, the platter pad was a big one one that was ignored. I know the person (Warren Gehl of ARC) who designed an ambitious platter pad which did well controlling the LP resonance as well as that of the platter- and any machine that had one sounded better than one without (once the arm height issue was sorted). IME it didn’t matter if it was DD or belt; that platter pad was more important. It weighed 5 pounds so not every machine could work with it.

FWIW Sumiko acquired the rights from Warren and the mat went on the Cosmos, because Sota was owned by Sumiko at the time (IIRC this happened due to Allen Perkins’ association through my first dealer, before Allen left Sumiko). But Sota changed the formula after about 100 ’tables were made so they didn’t have to pay Warren the rights (again IIRC). This is why I had an early Cosmos (serial number 0, later destroyed by FedEx). All this went down prior to Donna and her husband acquiring Sota.


Since I’ve got one of those pre-Sota platter pads I can set it up on any machine that will handle it. It works a treat on the Technics. I did like the way the vacuum system got rid of rumble, most of which is really just warp.

Ralph is a mentor to me so I hate to correct him and I do so with trepidation, but stylus velocity is not a determinant of skating force. Just saying.

It is so great to have people with long histories in this great hobby and also the phenomenal memories of what went down long before I got interested in a "stereo system."

Lots of great info & history here 👍

FWIW, the TK850M would not fit the Technics 1200 but no doubt the 9” TK850S would as long as you could find one.  Conical/spherical styli not recommended for shorter tonearms.
As noted (& IMO), the Technics is ultimately only as good as its record mat. A stellar deck when you get it right and an easy recommendation.

@lewm, I think there might be some confusion here. I think, correct me if I am wrong the you are refering to groove speed which slows down towards the center of the record. That does not affect friction and skating much. Groove velocity refers to the distance the stylus has to travel in the groove. In a more heavily modulated groove the stylus has to travel farther but never in a straight line. The stylus has to keep changing direction which takes energy. Thus as the groove velocity increases friction and skating increase and the groove becomes progressively harder to track. This is why skating is so hard to peg. It keeps changing with modulation (groove velocity)

I used to be a die hard belt drive guy.  Ever since using the 1200G, they all seem like they are missing something.  Unless you spend say 20K for a good belt drive, they lack the the bite that is in real music that the direct drive and its speed stability and torque seem to provide.  Many belt drives seem smoothed over in overall sound reproduction.  It's all in what you like for sound.  IMO the 1200G just offers a lot for the money.  You can always put a different arm on if you so choose but for me, the stock is fine.

No. What I am referring to is the fact that velocity is not a parameter to be found in the equation for the force of friction. And friction is the basis for the skating force. All other things being equal, friction is the same at 33 as it is at 45rpm. I take your minor point that groove tortuosity does seem to contribute to the skating force. Or what we observe as a skating force. I think that is because the tortuosity of the groove causes tiny accelerations and decelerations, i.e., changes in velocity of the stylus. Every time you have a change in velocity you have an acceleration. Every acceleration generates a force (F=ma). So my hypothesis is that the contribution of groove tortuosity to the skating force is due to these accelerations, which are not really due to friction. In that sense, Ralph is correct.

@lewm  I have to admit its an assumption on my part that people are playing LPs have have something other than a steady tone :)

@lewm , in the record industry groove velocity is almost a synonym for groove tortuosity. Groove velocity is the distance the stylus travels in the groove divided by time usually in cm/sec The more heavily modulated groove has a higher velocity as the stylus must travel farther. You are referring to groove speed as not affecting friction which as you have mentioned many times, it does not. But, you agree that groove velocity certainly does! 
@atmasphere,that is a reasonable assumption except maybe for millercarbon:-)

If you read the article Hugh Finnimore, Disc cutting in theory, Studio Sound and Broadcast Engineering, July 1975 Studio-Sound-1975-07.pdf (worldradiohistory.com) and can tackle the math you will get a much better 'technical' understanding of what is actually happening with the stylus.  When talking about the record velocity - the important item is groove velocity - 'tangential velocity' (also called the linear velocity) - and for a 33 rpm 12" record this is decreasing from about 51 cm/sec at the outer groove to about 20 cm/sec at the inner groove.

This is going to come as a shock, but stylus acceleration can exceed 1000-g's.  This is not a typo, and in-fact, when cutting the record, they generally adjust parameters to generally limit the stylus acceleration to 2000-g's.  The acceleration is a function of the stylus velocity which is driven by the frequency to reproduce, and the signal amplitude (displacement) which is often called modulation.  But, the inner groove is the most difficult for reproducing the higher frequencies and largest modulations which is a challenge for classical music with its end of program crescendos.

The stylus radius - its profile - has a profound effect on the ability to trace the highest frequencies and largest amplitude/modulation; and this where the advanced profiles such as Shibata come in.  Read the above article for real technical details.  The magazine also has a survey of some of  the cutting machines that were available.  When you realize the enormous accelerations that are occurring it may make sense why some cutters such as the NEUMANN are rated at 500W/channel and the cutting head has to be helium cooled to achieve highest groove-velocity.

In this old Stereophile magazine - the next to last page, there is a good composite plot of the velocities and the displacements vs frequency with limits of the stylus radius for a 33 rpm record -  Stereophile-1964-08.pdf (worldradiohistory.com).  You will see similar composite plots in the  Studio Sound and Broadcast Engineering, July 1975.

@antinn , Thanx for a very lucid explanation. 1000G's, that means the groove is subject to a force 1000 times the weight of the stylus over the styluses contact area. A formula 1 driver is subject to something like 5 G's under braking. 1000 G's that is nuts.

@mijostyn, and anyone else,

The article Dr. A. M. Max, Disc Phonograph Records, Max, RCA Engineer Magazine 1966-08-09 1966-08-09.pdf (worldradiohistory.com) derives the same formulas addressed in the Studio Sound and Broadcast Engineering, July 1975 but takes it further showing the derivation and calculation of the forces/pressures the stylus exerts on the record taking into account basic record material properties; with spherical stylus at 2.5 gm VTF able to develop over 65,000 psi. The ’forces’ involved in record playback are just amazing. The fact the record playback is still valid today is a real tribute to the scientists & engineers and the associated corporate R&D centers that did the heavy lifting 50 yrs ago.

PS/In may last post, I should have said  "...NEUMANN are rated at 500W/channel and the cutting head has to be helium cooled to achieve highest groove-stylus-velocity."  There is always 2 different velocities - the record velocity as it moved under the stylus and then the stylus velocity as it traces the groove amplitude/displacement/modulation up/down and side-to-side.

I like the term linear velocity vs groove velocity. Yup if you look at a Neumann lathe it is obvious that there is some serious stuff going on with the head. That they can keep the whole mess quiet is more amazement.
Thanx for the article antinn.

@antinn, Dr Max looks just like Harpo! Fun to read older rags like this. Those were the Dynagroove days:-)

This is a fascinating post.  I am quite enjoying this.  thanks all

For a newbie (I am definitely not one), this would be daunting.  I imagine this turns off potential turntable/cartridge/tone arm/phono stage buyers.

It reminds me of that old Saturday Night Live episode where they had a skit about the George Bush (Jr.) election debate and asked him a question. The response makes me laugh even today.

I was told there would be no math.

enjoy.

That they can keep the whole mess quiet is more amazement.

A fair amount of feedback is used. Its not for linearity so much as to insure channel separation. My Westerex setup uses 30dB. 

Dear Mijo, Please don't put words in my mouth.  "Velocity" is a vector quantity, meaning it formally has both magnitude and direction, although we usually omit to specify direction.  "Speed" is a scalar quantity, meaning it describes a magnitude only.  When the groove is especially tortuous, the angular distance on the arc traveled by the stylus tip with respect to the spindle or the center of the LP is less than the actual distance the stylus travels to get between any two of those points on the arc, because the stylus is wiggling back and forth in order to follow the path of the groove.  What I was saying is that each "wiggle" forces a change in velocity, if you were sitting on the stylus tip.  (I think it would be like riding "The Whip" in an old time amusement park.) A change in velocity is by definition an "acceleration".  Any time a mass (the stylus tip) is accelerated, a Force is required. Since the vector direction of that tiny force is generally in the same direction as the force required to overcome friction, I am suggesting that the two Forces add, which results in one reason why the skating force is never constant.  (The other reasons have to do with the ever changing angle by which a line drawn through the stylus/cantilever to the pivot is not tangent to the groove.)  Like I said before, this is only my own hypothesis.  But it survived my own close examination. I am open to criticism.

@anthonya 

lucky me u said that..@chakster. nearly bought the cu platter lol thanks

Yes, I had to sell one CU-180 to Technics owner in UK simply because the diameter was slightly bigger (within Micro Seiki tolerance) and it was impossible to fit on Luxman PD-444 platter. But another CU-180 was fine! Right now I have two Micro Seiki CU-180, my spare still in the box, I could try to fit on luxman platter. But cheaper alternative is SAEC mat, stunning performer on PD-444 (I think I have 3 of them NOS). 

@lewm, that is a very complicated way of admitting you made an error in terminology:-)  In my simplified mind velocity and speed are synonyms.
I think we agree on the difference and the effect it has on skating. We only disagree on terminology. But, somehow Ralph and I seem to understand each other. Maybe he is just lowering himself to my level of mentality to be polite.
@atmasphere , 30 dB is a lot of feedback! I didn't know that, but then controlling the cutting stylus at that level and managing to come out with the results you get with any good pressing is amazing in an of itself.

Mijostyn, no matter what you may “think” and no matter what is your opinion, “velocity” and “speed” are not synonymous. We, all of us, may use them as such, but when we do so we are being sloppy, in a convenient sort of way. Why are we even arguing about this? It has nothing much to do with anything substantial. the fact is that if you are going to talk about what is going on with a stylus in a groove, then it does become important to distinguish between velocity and speed. The reason the speed is changing up and down as the stylus negotiates the groove is because the groove necessitates rapid changes in direction. Changes in direction are what distinguishes velocity from speed.

@chungjh any progress?

Speed and velocity can be confusing for one reason the units are the same- ft/sec, miles per hour, or m/s.  For example when driving your car you might maintain a constant speed through a curve and your speedometer shows that your speed is unchanging.  Your velocity, however is changing as evidenced by the sideways pull you experience in your seat.  A change in velocity is acceleration.  Acceleration is a force.  That’s what you feel in your seat as you steer your car through a curve.  The stylus experiences those same forces as it gets pulled through the wavy grooves of a record.  

I know @lewm , I'm just pulling your leg. The more heavily the grove is modulated the higher will be the groove velocity. Speed is determined where the stylus is on the diameter of the record. It slows as you mve towards the center. Yes, at higher velocities might have to change directions more often and more vigorously but this is frequency and modulation dependent. Obvious the skating force increases at higher groove velocities because the stylus assembly has mass and changing directions faster increases drag proportionally. One could say that friction increases but  drag would probably be the more appropriate term as friction does not change skating much but drag does. 

An update. I just got Technics 1200G and a slightly used Lyra Etna SL. In the process of setting up. I will update once I get a feel for the sound.

If it means anything at this point I am in the process of having a SOTA Sapphire VI built.   The process has been great, and Dona the co owner has been awesome.  Have talked tonearms and then cartridges that go well with their turntables.  I opted to have a custom audiomods tonearm built and as soon as I get that they will mount it and balance it for me along with my cartridge.  So far they are amazing knowledgeable people to work with who understand the legacy of their brand and have continued to grow it.  

@sbank   been reading this with interest. Need a new armboard for Techdar AF3 and don't like their prices! Looked at TVTanalogshop.com that you mentioned but can't find any contact details for them on their website or elsewhere..... do you have any please?

How it's going @chungjh , do you like your Technics ? 

@stigemat,
Try tvan_tan@yahoo.com.vn

Cheers,
Spencer

Sorry, I haven't responded for so long. Due to personal reasons, I just started to set up my 1200G today. I got a Lyra Etna SL cartridge to go with it. Bad news is that this practically new 1200G doesn't turn on. I checked all the connections. The only thing I can think of is that the fuse is blown. Any ideas?

Dumb question, but does the power supply have a voltage selector and you've got it set for your correct electrical supply? Cheers,
Spencer

I don't see any reference to voltage selectors in the manual.

You’d better ask your seller