SOTA NOVA, HR-X VPI, Technics 1200G recommendations?

You’d better ask your seller

I don't see any reference to voltage selectors in the manual.

Dumb question, but does the power supply have a voltage selector and you've got it set for your correct electrical supply? Cheers,
Spencer

Sorry, I haven't responded for so long. Due to personal reasons, I just started to set up my 1200G today. I got a Lyra Etna SL cartridge to go with it. Bad news is that this practically new 1200G doesn't turn on. I checked all the connections. The only thing I can think of is that the fuse is blown. Any ideas?

@stigemat,
Try tvan_tan@yahoo.com.vn

Cheers,
Spencer

How it's going @chungjh , do you like your Technics ? 

@sbank   been reading this with interest. Need a new armboard for Techdar AF3 and don't like their prices! Looked at TVTanalogshop.com that you mentioned but can't find any contact details for them on their website or elsewhere..... do you have any please?

If it means anything at this point I am in the process of having a SOTA Sapphire VI built.   The process has been great, and Dona the co owner has been awesome.  Have talked tonearms and then cartridges that go well with their turntables.  I opted to have a custom audiomods tonearm built and as soon as I get that they will mount it and balance it for me along with my cartridge.  So far they are amazing knowledgeable people to work with who understand the legacy of their brand and have continued to grow it.  

An update. I just got Technics 1200G and a slightly used Lyra Etna SL. In the process of setting up. I will update once I get a feel for the sound.

I know @lewm , I'm just pulling your leg. The more heavily the grove is modulated the higher will be the groove velocity. Speed is determined where the stylus is on the diameter of the record. It slows as you mve towards the center. Yes, at higher velocities might have to change directions more often and more vigorously but this is frequency and modulation dependent. Obvious the skating force increases at higher groove velocities because the stylus assembly has mass and changing directions faster increases drag proportionally. One could say that friction increases but  drag would probably be the more appropriate term as friction does not change skating much but drag does. 

Speed and velocity can be confusing for one reason the units are the same- ft/sec, miles per hour, or m/s.  For example when driving your car you might maintain a constant speed through a curve and your speedometer shows that your speed is unchanging.  Your velocity, however is changing as evidenced by the sideways pull you experience in your seat.  A change in velocity is acceleration.  Acceleration is a force.  That’s what you feel in your seat as you steer your car through a curve.  The stylus experiences those same forces as it gets pulled through the wavy grooves of a record.  

@chungjh any progress?

Mijostyn, no matter what you may “think” and no matter what is your opinion, “velocity” and “speed” are not synonymous. We, all of us, may use them as such, but when we do so we are being sloppy, in a convenient sort of way. Why are we even arguing about this? It has nothing much to do with anything substantial. the fact is that if you are going to talk about what is going on with a stylus in a groove, then it does become important to distinguish between velocity and speed. The reason the speed is changing up and down as the stylus negotiates the groove is because the groove necessitates rapid changes in direction. Changes in direction are what distinguishes velocity from speed.

@lewm, that is a very complicated way of admitting you made an error in terminology:-)  In my simplified mind velocity and speed are synonyms.
I think we agree on the difference and the effect it has on skating. We only disagree on terminology. But, somehow Ralph and I seem to understand each other. Maybe he is just lowering himself to my level of mentality to be polite.
@atmasphere , 30 dB is a lot of feedback! I didn't know that, but then controlling the cutting stylus at that level and managing to come out with the results you get with any good pressing is amazing in an of itself.

@anthonya 

lucky me u said that..@chakster. nearly bought the cu platter lol thanks

Yes, I had to sell one CU-180 to Technics owner in UK simply because the diameter was slightly bigger (within Micro Seiki tolerance) and it was impossible to fit on Luxman PD-444 platter. But another CU-180 was fine! Right now I have two Micro Seiki CU-180, my spare still in the box, I could try to fit on luxman platter. But cheaper alternative is SAEC mat, stunning performer on PD-444 (I think I have 3 of them NOS). 

Dear Mijo, Please don't put words in my mouth.  "Velocity" is a vector quantity, meaning it formally has both magnitude and direction, although we usually omit to specify direction.  "Speed" is a scalar quantity, meaning it describes a magnitude only.  When the groove is especially tortuous, the angular distance on the arc traveled by the stylus tip with respect to the spindle or the center of the LP is less than the actual distance the stylus travels to get between any two of those points on the arc, because the stylus is wiggling back and forth in order to follow the path of the groove.  What I was saying is that each "wiggle" forces a change in velocity, if you were sitting on the stylus tip.  (I think it would be like riding "The Whip" in an old time amusement park.) A change in velocity is by definition an "acceleration".  Any time a mass (the stylus tip) is accelerated, a Force is required. Since the vector direction of that tiny force is generally in the same direction as the force required to overcome friction, I am suggesting that the two Forces add, which results in one reason why the skating force is never constant.  (The other reasons have to do with the ever changing angle by which a line drawn through the stylus/cantilever to the pivot is not tangent to the groove.)  Like I said before, this is only my own hypothesis.  But it survived my own close examination. I am open to criticism.

That they can keep the whole mess quiet is more amazement.

A fair amount of feedback is used. Its not for linearity so much as to insure channel separation. My Westerex setup uses 30dB. 

This is a fascinating post.  I am quite enjoying this.  thanks all

For a newbie (I am definitely not one), this would be daunting.  I imagine this turns off potential turntable/cartridge/tone arm/phono stage buyers.

It reminds me of that old Saturday Night Live episode where they had a skit about the George Bush (Jr.) election debate and asked him a question. The response makes me laugh even today.

I was told there would be no math.

enjoy.

@antinn, Dr Max looks just like Harpo! Fun to read older rags like this. Those were the Dynagroove days:-)

I like the term linear velocity vs groove velocity. Yup if you look at a Neumann lathe it is obvious that there is some serious stuff going on with the head. That they can keep the whole mess quiet is more amazement.
Thanx for the article antinn.

@mijostyn, and anyone else,

The article Dr. A. M. Max, Disc Phonograph Records, Max, RCA Engineer Magazine 1966-08-09 1966-08-09.pdf (worldradiohistory.com) derives the same formulas addressed in the Studio Sound and Broadcast Engineering, July 1975 but takes it further showing the derivation and calculation of the forces/pressures the stylus exerts on the record taking into account basic record material properties; with spherical stylus at 2.5 gm VTF able to develop over 65,000 psi. The ’forces’ involved in record playback are just amazing. The fact the record playback is still valid today is a real tribute to the scientists & engineers and the associated corporate R&D centers that did the heavy lifting 50 yrs ago.

PS/In may last post, I should have said  "...NEUMANN are rated at 500W/channel and the cutting head has to be helium cooled to achieve highest groove-stylus-velocity."  There is always 2 different velocities - the record velocity as it moved under the stylus and then the stylus velocity as it traces the groove amplitude/displacement/modulation up/down and side-to-side.

@antinn , Thanx for a very lucid explanation. 1000G's, that means the groove is subject to a force 1000 times the weight of the stylus over the styluses contact area. A formula 1 driver is subject to something like 5 G's under braking. 1000 G's that is nuts.

If you read the article Hugh Finnimore, Disc cutting in theory, Studio Sound and Broadcast Engineering, July 1975 Studio-Sound-1975-07.pdf (worldradiohistory.com) and can tackle the math you will get a much better 'technical' understanding of what is actually happening with the stylus.  When talking about the record velocity - the important item is groove velocity - 'tangential velocity' (also called the linear velocity) - and for a 33 rpm 12" record this is decreasing from about 51 cm/sec at the outer groove to about 20 cm/sec at the inner groove.

This is going to come as a shock, but stylus acceleration can exceed 1000-g's.  This is not a typo, and in-fact, when cutting the record, they generally adjust parameters to generally limit the stylus acceleration to 2000-g's.  The acceleration is a function of the stylus velocity which is driven by the frequency to reproduce, and the signal amplitude (displacement) which is often called modulation.  But, the inner groove is the most difficult for reproducing the higher frequencies and largest modulations which is a challenge for classical music with its end of program crescendos.

The stylus radius - its profile - has a profound effect on the ability to trace the highest frequencies and largest amplitude/modulation; and this where the advanced profiles such as Shibata come in.  Read the above article for real technical details.  The magazine also has a survey of some of  the cutting machines that were available.  When you realize the enormous accelerations that are occurring it may make sense why some cutters such as the NEUMANN are rated at 500W/channel and the cutting head has to be helium cooled to achieve highest groove-velocity.

In this old Stereophile magazine - the next to last page, there is a good composite plot of the velocities and the displacements vs frequency with limits of the stylus radius for a 33 rpm record -  Stereophile-1964-08.pdf (worldradiohistory.com).  You will see similar composite plots in the  Studio Sound and Broadcast Engineering, July 1975.

@lewm , in the record industry groove velocity is almost a synonym for groove tortuosity. Groove velocity is the distance the stylus travels in the groove divided by time usually in cm/sec The more heavily modulated groove has a higher velocity as the stylus must travel farther. You are referring to groove speed as not affecting friction which as you have mentioned many times, it does not. But, you agree that groove velocity certainly does! 
@atmasphere,that is a reasonable assumption except maybe for millercarbon:-)

@lewm  I have to admit its an assumption on my part that people are playing LPs have have something other than a steady tone :)

No. What I am referring to is the fact that velocity is not a parameter to be found in the equation for the force of friction. And friction is the basis for the skating force. All other things being equal, friction is the same at 33 as it is at 45rpm. I take your minor point that groove tortuosity does seem to contribute to the skating force. Or what we observe as a skating force. I think that is because the tortuosity of the groove causes tiny accelerations and decelerations, i.e., changes in velocity of the stylus. Every time you have a change in velocity you have an acceleration. Every acceleration generates a force (F=ma). So my hypothesis is that the contribution of groove tortuosity to the skating force is due to these accelerations, which are not really due to friction. In that sense, Ralph is correct.

I used to be a die hard belt drive guy.  Ever since using the 1200G, they all seem like they are missing something.  Unless you spend say 20K for a good belt drive, they lack the the bite that is in real music that the direct drive and its speed stability and torque seem to provide.  Many belt drives seem smoothed over in overall sound reproduction.  It's all in what you like for sound.  IMO the 1200G just offers a lot for the money.  You can always put a different arm on if you so choose but for me, the stock is fine.

@lewm, I think there might be some confusion here. I think, correct me if I am wrong the you are refering to groove speed which slows down towards the center of the record. That does not affect friction and skating much. Groove velocity refers to the distance the stylus has to travel in the groove. In a more heavily modulated groove the stylus has to travel farther but never in a straight line. The stylus has to keep changing direction which takes energy. Thus as the groove velocity increases friction and skating increase and the groove becomes progressively harder to track. This is why skating is so hard to peg. It keeps changing with modulation (groove velocity)

Lots of great info & history here 👍

FWIW, the TK850M would not fit the Technics 1200 but no doubt the 9” TK850S would as long as you could find one.  Conical/spherical styli not recommended for shorter tonearms.
As noted (& IMO), the Technics is ultimately only as good as its record mat. A stellar deck when you get it right and an easy recommendation.

It is so great to have people with long histories in this great hobby and also the phenomenal memories of what went down long before I got interested in a "stereo system."

Ralph is a mentor to me so I hate to correct him and I do so with trepidation, but stylus velocity is not a determinant of skating force. Just saying.

They were all lifeless in comparison and all of us heard the same thing. I sold a bunch of them at Luskin’s and had I don’t know how many people complain of the way they sounded.

There can be a lot of variables and especially back then, the platter pad was a big one one that was ignored. I know the person (Warren Gehl of ARC) who designed an ambitious platter pad which did well controlling the LP resonance as well as that of the platter- and any machine that had one sounded better than one without (once the arm height issue was sorted). IME it didn’t matter if it was DD or belt; that platter pad was more important. It weighed 5 pounds so not every machine could work with it.

FWIW Sumiko acquired the rights from Warren and the mat went on the Cosmos, because Sota was owned by Sumiko at the time (IIRC this happened due to Allen Perkins’ association through my first dealer, before Allen left Sumiko). But Sota changed the formula after about 100 ’tables were made so they didn’t have to pay Warren the rights (again IIRC). This is why I had an early Cosmos (serial number 0, later destroyed by FedEx). All this went down prior to Donna and her husband acquiring Sota.


Since I’ve got one of those pre-Sota platter pads I can set it up on any machine that will handle it. It works a treat on the Technics. I did like the way the vacuum system got rid of rumble, most of which is really just warp.

Ralph it was not misinformation. We had several of them from different manufacturers in the store and we compared them at length with SP 12's and a Goldmund Table. They were all lifeless in comparison and all of us heard the same thing. I sold a bunch of them at Luskin's and had I don't know how many people complain of the way they sounded. Luskin's was a box store that never took anything back unless it was defective out of the box. Not sounding good did not qualify back then. Nothing like having to deal with a pissed off customer. At Sound Components we did not have that problem. We sold everyone LP12's .

As for Sota's vacuum clamping system there are two important details. 1st is a much better mat that matches the mechanical impedance of vinyl. Second is the compressor switches automatically to a low pressure mode once the record is clamps. This puts much less vacuum on the record and also saves the compressor from having to do a lot of work. It is perfectly safe but, you can still buy a Cosmos without it. On top of this the new Cosmos has a magnetic thrust bearing like the Clearaudio turntables abolishing bearing wear and halving the noise. Then there is the Eclipse drive system (which I have not heard yet) which by all accounts is extremely accurate and stable. Rumble is a more serious consideration for me than the difference between 0.02 and 0.03% wow and flutter. Then there is a fine suspension and an isolated dust cover. These are all items I have to have. I can make them myself but my wife would rather keep me building cabinets and furnisher. I could have bought an SP10R used the same turntable and built a suspended plinth with a dustcover. I chose not to. Old habits die hard.

I have been happily using a SOTA Star Sapphire turntable since the 80’s. It replaced an AR Turntable (yes, I am that old) and later a very modesty priced Techniques. The later were rather susceptible to footsteps on my old wood floor. However, it sounds like this is no longer an issue for the high-end models. I do have my turntable on a butcher block slab with high-tech footers, but I have never tried to do an A/B comparison without them (too lazy, I guess). Also, I never compared my SOTA to a Techniques or VPI. I recently upgraded to the Cosmos using a refurbished SME VI arm and a Soundsmith Paula cartridge. If you are still considering a SOTA , you might give them a call. I enjoy my conversations with Donna, talking about audio and anything else. She was very fond of the Jelco 750 and Hana cartridge combination as well as a Dynavector. For the well funded, she liked the Origin Live arm as well. Good Luck.

lucky me u said that..@chakster. nearly bought the cu platter lol thanks

@mijostyn  You'll want to be careful using the vacuum system! I had a Sota Cosmos some years back that damaged the LP surface held against the platter pad. Dusting both sides before playing didn't fix it. Later, Sota changed the surface of the platter pad to be softer, which also changed the sound of the turntable. When I got our model 208 to sound better in every way I let the Cosmos go. For the record I've no idea how they handle this now.


You are incorrect about the speed stability of properly executed DD machines- there is a very good reason the Technics SP10MkIII holds a high value on eBay- its a performer and takes any belt drive machine to task. The new SP10R and SL1200G do too.


The reason that it 'was not enough to help them years ago' is due to misinformation and nothing more- I know, I fell victim to that same misinformation.

@atmasphere, Ralph, I just bought a new Sota so another turntable is not going to happen in the near future. I will listen for a "shimmer" in the sound stage. DD turntables have always speced well in regards to speed stability. That was not enough to help them years ago. It would be fun to have one in my system for a sort while to hear a modern one but nobody I know has one. There are other issues however. I am sold on vacuum clamping which is not provided with any DD table I am aware of. A suspended plinth I can easily make. 

I wasn’t so much worried about the delay but the stress of constant starting/stopping on the motor.

Doan worry aboutit.

There’s no problem at all in this regard- we’d know about it by now; Technics motors have been running fine for decades.

The real issue for me is because of my long term use of subwoofers with ESLs isolation is more important to me than absolute speed accuracy

I’ve used Technics with Sound Labs and they are really happy together! But I also use a good equipment stand, equipped with proper anti-vibration platforms, not just for the turntable but the preamp too. My speakers go to 20Hz perfectly flat (they are about 3db down at 15 Hz) and no worries with low frequency noise interacting with the Technics! For the record, years ago we used to have a page on our website called the ’Atma-Sphere Bass of the Year’ which was a list of recordings we used to show off bass response and impact. The Technics sails effortlessly through that!

I think the SP10R is down around 0.02%. That difference is totally inaudible where as lack of a suspension is totally audible.

You don’t hear speed variation of 0.05% as a pitch change as its too subtle. But you do hear it as a slight ’shimmer’ in the soundstage, since speed variation causes a radially tracking arm to oscillate side to side in the groove (due to the variation in skating forces). It really is something to hear how a Technics sorts that particular phenomena out! Reel to reel tape does not have this issue since speed variation does not affect the output of either channel. So it has a ’locked in’ soundstage that is a bit of a trick for turntables- but the Technics pulls it off with ease.


Try it you’ll like it!

@lewm, I though your problem with your Sota was speed variation? The Sota's suspension lacks real damping so it will bounce if you get it started but since the sub chassis is enclosed that does not represent much of a problem. The MinusK platforms are not dampened either. People have complained of them bouncing if you lean on them. The heavy mass approach does not work well at all. Place you tonearm down on a record with the turntable off. Watch the woofer or subwoofer move. In you case it would be the diaphragm if you can see it. Have someone jump on the floor while you observe the woofer. With the Sota you will see nothing. That is working pretty good in my book. 
@atmasphere , I know Ralph, that is why I always reference my opinion as coming from the distant past. I just love rubbing chakster the wrong way:-)  The real issue for me is because of my long term use of subwoofers with ESLs isolation is more important to me than absolute speed accuracy although Sota's new drive seems to be very close to DD standards none of them have a suspension I would care to run with subwoofers and mine run 5 dB up from zero at 20 Hz which is what it takes to load the room correctly. I have had solid plinth tables here to set up for friends and even with a concrete floor the subwoofer drivers flutter.
I'm sure your plinth was better. If you have one of your turntables around it would be interesting to install Sota's Eclipse system and see what you get. If the wow and flutter are down at 0.03% or even less than 0.05% I can't see how you could want better than that. I think the SP10R is down around 0.02%. That difference is totally inaudible where as lack of a suspension is totally audible.

There is no stress at all for DD motor, but if you don’t want to scratch your record sirface on a metal mats (flipping it when the platter is on) you have to press stop button first. If your mat is felt mat (slipmat) you don’t have to worry about it, because felt mat can’t damage your vinyl even if you will rotate the record to opposite direction on the spinning plater. This is why deejay using felt mats only (slipmats) on Technics.


I don’t use felt mats on any of my turntables in the main system, so I can flip the records only when rotation is off.

Lew,

I wasn't so much worried about the delay but the stress of constant starting/stopping on the motor.

Jay, Yeah, but with a good DD, there is a brake that stops the platter on a dime, and it takes seconds to get back up to speed.  So stopping the rotation in order to change or turn over the LP is not going to cause any extra delay. 

Along the lines of Atma-sphere's theme, besides the SP10R or the SL1200G, very few DD aficionados these days use the OEM plinths that were supplied along with the typical DD turntable in the vintage days.  I personally favor high mass and constrained layer damping, along with an energy absorbent shelf that could do its work by any of several modalities. Heck, I wouldn't even look down on a spring-supported shelf if done properly.  MC seems to have done that. Nor do most use the thick rubber mats that also were normal fare in days of yore.  Those definitely killed the sound.  (See also the many posts by Chakster and others regarding preferable mats.)

@chakster 

When you flip your record, do you stop the turntable each time? On my old SOTA, I just grabbed the record while the platter was turning and flip it. With hard surfaces like copper, I am thinking it would damage the record if you grab it while the platter is still turning.

My aversion to direct drive turntables comes from pretty extensive listening tests back in the late 70's early 80's. The universal opinion was that direct drive turntables sounded inferior to the best belt drive turntables. There were various theories of why this might be, none of them proven that I know of. I do know that isolating the turntable from everything else going on around it including the music is very important.

@mijostyn  I remember when direct drive was getting that bad rap. It turned out that there are good direct drive tts and bad ones, just like there are class D amps that sound terrible and others that are great. It depends on design and execution.

The thing that Technics always had going for them was a robust research and development department since they are owned by Panasonic.  Turns out that control theory, if properly applied, can work on a turntable no worries- with less speed variation than any belt drive ever made. They've not lost that expertise! While I don't doubt that you heard some inferior DD turntables, and some of them even lower priced Technics that were bad, you'd do well to disabuse yourself of your anecdotes and take a serious listen to either the 1200G or SP10R, either equipped with the tonearm of your choice.


I've done that and its the reason we stopped selling our Atma-Sphere 208, which is very speed stable for a belt-drive machine. The Technics is simply better- and for less money. I have to admit I like our plinth better but Technics did a very good job on theirs (in the SL1200G, not so much the SP10R IMO).

Mijo, What we disagree on is the idea that a typical spring-suspended turntable is the sine qua non of turntable isolation.  I fully agree that isolation from environmental energy is important, and we agree on the why of it.  But I don't think the SOTA as prototype is the best way to go about isolating a turntable from the environment.  And I have stated the reason for my opinion several times:  With all such systems, and the SOTA is not much different from the now ancient and much loved AR turntable of yore and all its descendants (albeit the SOTA is far more advanced), the designer has a choice.  Either the motor is suspended along with the tonearm and bearing/platter, or it is mounted on solid footing, so it does not couple energy into the working elements.  If the motor is suspended, then a major source of noise (and here I am talking about mechanical energy, not EMI) is coupled into the platter.  Belt drive motors must operate at higher rotational speeds so as to maintain platter speed, compared to any dd motor, and what's more there will be a side force on both the platter and the motor pulley which eventually needs to extraneous noise due to the long term effects of friction, so I think that is why most designers of spring-suspended turntables adopt the other option, having the motor on solid ground, so to speak.  But when the motor is mechanically separated from the driven elements, there will be motion of one relative to the other.  If the belt is at all compliant, then there will be speed inconstancy owing to the stretching and relaxing of the belt as vibrational energy is absorbed.  You like to talk about the 80s and 90s, when "everyone" figured out that belt-drive turntables were superior to direct-drive, but I would posit that what happened in those decades, besides the near total demise of vinyl, was the result of a propaganda barrage from the industry, not excluding the magazines. It was and is just so much easier to build a low end belt-drive turntable that everyone was and still is doing it.  I was there, and I was swept up in it for a number of years, just as you were.  Now some of the modern and expensive belt-drives do the suspension right, including the Dohmann Helix.  I think that's a great turntable but I would rather not afford it.  I would further point out that there are sophisticated methods by which to isolate a non-suspended DD turntable that in my opinion can have an effect at least equal to springs but without the negatives.  So to be clear, by not liking spring-suspended belt-drives, I would not want to be seen to believe that isolation is trivial.

I think that’s why luxman pd 121a I’m using sound so different from rest of dd. the speed control. is soso.. but the platter is thick and heavy. and somewhat more quiet..quite a shocker when the result is very natural highly detailed and round.. even with a cheap MM. eleptical.

Never tried PD-121, my only Luxman is their top PD-444.
SAEC is the best for Luxman platter because the platter edge is higher than its inner side. SAEC is the opposite (look here). And this is a top side.

Micro CU-180 diameter can be too big (there is a little tolerance in diameter according to the manual), sometimes it can’t fit! This is my cu-180 on my lux platter. And the side view.

And Sakura Systems THE MAT is just perfect for LUX platter size.

Well nothing new from you, it's not necessary to mention your 911 car in every post about turntables, cars and turntables are not related to each other. If you like a turntable that looks like coffin with a belt then it's nothing but your own preferences.

You're right, I forgot you're still listening to 78 rpm, just like during the World War 1 :)) 

So when you compare your current Sota to something you can't even remember (and do not own anymore) it's very "helpful" for others. It's a perfect test, the only problem is that it's just in your imagination.   

If you will look at the images of turntables and some other audio gear that I like, you will see only state of the art design. Even if it's old it's still like new, I do not buy junk. Works flawless for me for many years, no problem. 

You can cut yourself a mat from a piece of paper if you like it soft :)

But I would rather buy another Micro CU-500 Copper Mat if I can find it in MINT condition.    

I see one common problem in modern equipment, most of the designers have no taste (imo). 

Regarding "antique" cartridges, let me show you my latest purchase, believe it of not, but it's modern Shelter 5000 LOMC. I think it's beautiful. 

 

I think that's why luxman pd 121a I'm using sound so different from rest of dd. the speed control. is soso.. but the platter is thick and heavy. and somewhat more quiet..quite a shocker when the result is very natural highly detailed and round.. even with a cheap MM. eleptical. 

makes sense to me..