Some of the Worst Offenders in Bad Audio Forum Behavior Are Not Regular Forum Members
I've noticed first hand a disturbing trend over at Stereophile for the past couple of years that whenever someone knowledgeable challenges the mantra put forth by some of their editors, the Chief Editor, Mr. Atkinson, demands that the poster put forth personal information about themselves and any possible affiliations they may have with regard to employment that Mr. Atkinson might consider some kind of conflict of interest. Most notably, this occurred recently with a user named Archimago - a popular member of Computer Audiophile who extensively examined MQA, it's claims, and the claims made for it by Stereophile staff. Mr. Atkinson repeatedly challenged the author for his identity and professional affiliations - without which, he would disregard the message conveyed by said forum member. Mr. Atkinson has gone even further in other instances of which I personally witnessed first hand. He insists on banning from Stereophile's forum anyone whom he believes has a duty to publicly identify themselves without specifying the criteria behind the demand - other than that an industry affiliation might exist. I would encourage readers here to visit Computer Audiophile and search for Archimago /MQA discussions to see what I'm on about first hand.
The point of raising this is not necessarily to drag Mr. Atkinson through the mud but to highlight a key aspect of hypocrisy with respect to Mr. Atkinson's "policy" and how that relates to ALL online forums. Time and again, we're reminded in various forums when ideas are presented and challenged in a heated atmosphere - "FOCUS ON THE SUBJECT MATTER - NOT THE CREDENTIALS OR PERCEIVED FAILINGS OF THE INDIVIDUAL MAKING HIS OR HER POINT". This in my view has always been good advice. When we "play the ball" and not "the man", it is much easier to maintain a civil exchange of ideas/experiences. So where does Mr. Atkinson's insistence on identifying qualifications of the person fit in to this concept? It seems that every time he or a staff member is personally challenged for facts, he resorts to this "policy" as a form of censorship. So basically what I"m saying here is that there's plenty of evidence that in some circles, the very people who should be encouraging us all to focus on the merits of the message - letting it stand or fall on its own without involving the supposed "credentials" of the messenger, - these people are in fact the worst offenders among us. Instead of setting a good example and sticking to it, they are doing the opposite while on occasion imploring the rest of us "regular members" to "do as I say - not as I do". I no longer participate in Stereophile forums because of this obvious cute form of censorship that has been employed. I hope that kind of thing never happens here on Audiogon. My guess, however, is that since Agon moderators aren't in the business of promoting/reviewing certain products that come along, that issue is not likely to present itself. In any case, how do you feel about the privacy rights of other forum members? Should everyone be required to put forth their real name and potential industry affiliation or should that only apply to people who appear to be trying to sell something other than knowledge in the course of posting?
- "What test measurements were thrown out the window?"
With respect to cables and power conditioners - any/all - meaning the need for measurements was thrown out the window. It's a colloquial expression. Perhaps that explains your confusion about what I was trying to say.
"
Somewhere along the line, probably when test measurements were thrown
out the window and things like $3000 cables, $5000 "power conditioners",
and $50,000 amplifiers became "the norm" -cj1965
Translation: when $3000 cable sets and $5000 power conditioners appeared in "reviews" - around the same time that $50,000 amplifiers seemed to become a lot more common - test measurements (in reference to cables and power conditioners - not necessarily amps) were avoided. I didn't mean to confuse anyone but apparently I did. Sorry about that.
It should go without saying that some measurements have been retained over the years. I don't think I said ALL measurements were abandoned. The point, which I thought was obvious, was that there have never been measurements of cables and power conditioners- at least none that I have seen. If you know of such measurements, please post a link. Thanks.
When you have $100.00-300.00 receivers, integrated amps and low mass specialty amps competing with HEA components it’s pretty much game over. The only thing really holding HEA together is the Appeal of something High End itself, it’s not the performance.
Like I’ve been saying (others too) folks need to enjoy the ride watching a new order taking place in real time and just let it happen. Also folks need to invest their time into tuning in their systems and recordings. HEA is cool, but it is mostly "was cool" now. The decline is not going to reverse itself.
Hi Michael, Just to be clear, I am not asking you to go down a path. You went down that path without any request from me. We don’t mind dealers promoting their products as long as they disclose that that is what they are doing and don’t engage in too much hyperbole. If they don’t do the first and do engage in the second, they should be called out. This is a forum for people pursuing better sound, not a place for advertisers to make outrageous claims.
I am sure that there are many benefits to your products and don’t mind you pitching them here, but please don’t get carried away with the opportunity for free advertising that this forum provides.
@cj1965- I wasn't focused on turntables either. I was addressing the crux issue--dismissing a point of view rather than dealing with it on the merits. And suggested that forum users here aren't gullible, and offer a viewpoint that is valid, despite lacking credentials-- the very thing you take JA and Stereophile to task for at the outset. But, as I pointed out, you have now broadened the scope of the thread to dismiss a lot of high end as bling or marketing based, among other things, on nostalgia. And in that context, I raised a valid point about the merits of turntables based on considerable experience. You now suggest i start another thread on that subject, but it really goes to the heart of your original point, doesn't it?
@whart I appreciate your comment and viewpoint however before completely side tracking the thread I would like to respectfully request that you start a new thread on turntables or add to a preexisting thread on that subject pertaining to nostalgia. My purpose in bringing up Fremer was to draw attention to the impact a trade magazine can have in light of comments that have downplayed its role or significance.
@cj1965- this thread has certainly morphed. Your initial complaint was that JA at Stereophile unfairly discriminated against those with contrary views by demanding their credentials, rather than focusing on the merits of the comment about a particular piece of gear or technology. Now, your view seems to be that the high end is ridden with bling, fluff and unwarranted performance claims. But, aren't you painting with too broad a brush? I don't find my longtime use of an LP player to be an exercise in nostalgia, but the reflection of decades of investment in the format that I would be hard pressed to duplicate in digital for many reasons, not the least being the cost of equipment delivering arguably comparable performance, leaving aside the difficulty, if not impossibility, of finding these recordings other than on early, and now hard to find pressings. I'm not suggesting that one accept hyperbole, but few here do-- to the contrary, the best threads seem to focus on real world experience by a universe of users with no agenda other than sorting the wheat from the chaff. These are not credentialed reviewers, but people who put their own money into the various products and can speak with some authority about their experience. Wasn't that precisely what you were arguing for when you started this thread?
I agree with the OP. Facts are facts. Who you are doesn't change that. If you have something worthwhile to share but don't want to reveal yourself then you've still shared something worthwhile. The best way to dismiss someone is to prove them wrong. Obviously Atkinson can't in these cases or that's what he would do.
That said, the only thing I reference Stereophile for are the measurements. At least I have to give them credit for not being 100% subjective.
I tune systems. I'm not really interested in going down the road you suggest I do. I like Nelson and I like Dan. I give a list of products I tune and have tuned on TuneLand.
I like all stereos and finding out what they offer in a tunable capacity. If you do look at TuneLand you will read listeners being more specific about head to head comparisons. here's an example
http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t415-lattis-system
Keep in mind please I'm not here to ruffle feathers, I'm here to show the people who want to learn more about tuning to do so, or visit with others who have been tuning.
So Michael Green, a $300 Chinese mass produced receiver sounds as good as, say, Nelson Pass’s or Dan D’Agostino’s best work? I’m going to have to hear that to believe it. What $300 receiver are you referring to?
Most of us are not into high end gear because it’s cool. So we don’t care if cheap audio gear and "tuning" is the new cool.
"So, that's mainly why affordable hi-fi has largely disappeared."
I'm seeing the opposite.
I live in Vegas, and the affordable Hi-Fi is thriving. I talk to friends from other US cities and they see it flourishing as well. I've purchased a lot of it since 2004 to test vs HEA (from the Tuning end) and these products are great and for sure on par with the HE sonically. The last 4 years especially, the mass guys have caught up with the HEA recommended components.
When you have $100.00-300.00 receivers, integrated amps and low mass specialty amps competing with HEA components it's pretty much game over. The only thing really holding HEA together is the Appeal of something High End itself, it's not the performance.
Like I've been saying (others too) folks need to enjoy the ride watching a new order taking place in real time and just let it happen. Also folks need to invest their time into tuning in their systems and recordings. HEA is cool, but it is mostly "was cool" now. The decline is not going to reverse itself. Harry & J Gordon are gone and the new writers don't have the same charisma as even 10 years ago. Also, I've had friends of mine who are HEA store owners and they have been exploring how to either make a conversion to what is happening in today's market or contemplating retiring. There will always be a High End chapter but trying to tie it to the mainstream market is fading, and almost faded.
Personally I think it's a good thing. More people are into fine listen than ever before, and they're doing it affordably. That's a good thing.
DIY Audio sounds like a lovely, open minded place to hang out. 🌹 🌷 🌺 Or get hung out, as the case may be.
It’s the most closed minded place I’ve ever had the displeasure of being a member of. I like DIYAudio and there are some terrific people there - but don’t ever go there to and try to look at something new.
One those things that happens when people have just enough knowledge and lore to not see the walls of the box their thinking is in. Where they somehow imagine that their limits are the same as everyone else’s and encompasses all things..and then they go full rabid textbook/biblical/ballistic --toward anything that is even remotely ’not yet fully understood.’
There are people there that do look at all the odd stuff that is not yet understood and do apply it to the gear they build, but they literally have to pussyfoot around the place and never mention it directly. If they do mention it directly, the literal minded cement heads evoke the textbook answers and start attacking mercilessly.
Since the cement heads outnumber the inquisitive and forward thinking, and that the cement heads bite and tear with no relenting or thoughts..the forum moderators have to side with the cement heads and the forward thinkers are the ones who are censured. So dense they routinely kill the dreamer without a shred of thought that they kill the very thing that makes humanity go forward, onward and upward.
Linear. Dense. Negative. Violent. Projecting. Not a clue.
Sound familiar?
For good reason, my tag line at DIYAudio, used to be:
"Only Dead Fish Swim With The Stream" -Malcolm Muggeridge
I agree with you, cj1965. But, I think you have to realize that "Stereophile" is a business. A business that derives the bulk of its income from ads placed by high-end manufacturers. (That $12 a year subscription might barely cover the cost of mailing?)
Yes, traditional consumer audio is shrinking, but, that's been happening since the '80s as evidenced by the shuttering of all three of the mass-market audio magazines. That was years before the Worldwide Web debuted in 1993, so, home computers are not the sole cause. What really did audio 'in' was these inexpensive, great-sounding compact mini-rack/all-in-one systems that the big consumer giants introduced in the '80s. They thought teenagers would buy these and then upgrade to full-sized components as they got older. It didn't happen. When these things broke, they went out and bought another one for $300.
What also changed was leisure time: Americans now work more hours than they have since the end of WWII, so, the home stereo wasn't used as much as before. That's really why portable electronics, like mp3 players and smart phones became insanely popular.
At the same time, all the department stores closed their consumer electronics and recorded music sections, due to eroding margins.
So, that's mainly why affordable hi-fi has largely disappeared.
On the subject of facts and "revisionist history"..... If memory serves correctly, Julian Hirsch was doing plenty of measurements at Audio magazine way back in the 1970s and 1980's prior to the appearance of everyone's favorite equipment testing hero MR. John Atkinson. The issue that shouldn't get lost in the "who started doing measurements first war" is when Stereophile started doing reviews of equipment that possessed no lab testing results or measurements whatsoever. I firmly believe that if it were not for such fluff "reviews", the "power conditioner", exotic cable, and "vinyl comeback" industries as we know them today - would not even exist. To my knowledge, none of the current crop of industry trade representatives masquerading as consumer audio product reviewers have had the audacity to create a new category of review for magic resistors, magic capacitors, isolator feet, wire suspenders, acoustic energy "grounding rods" and similar such "tweaks". With the current trajectory, however, it would not surprise me if a new "tweak corner" should appear in Stereophile pages. What is truly humorous to watch though, are the videos of Michael Fremer swearing at cheap nostalgia turntables at CES. Not sure if Youtube took them down for blatant, gratuitous vulgarity but it was very funny watching this delusional character bemoan the fact that cheap nostalgia kitch turntables outnumbered his prized $50,000 offerings by at least 20:1 - as if the "vinyl comeback" was truly anything other than nostalgia. (Clearly the subject of other threads....)
I belong to one forum (a wine forum) where real names and industry affiliations must be disclosed.
SNA, Stereo Net Australia is like that.
One of the best forums I’ve found, which never seems to have much continuing conflict going on (just short and sweet ones), that’s because of the likes of the brains trust Nelson Pass, John Curl ect ect quite a few of them hang out, it’s http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/index.php , if you start to preach too much voodoo there without any tech backup, your either ignored or very quickly chastised and hung out to dry. That’s why it works and works very well, mods never seem to have to step in too often.
Some of the Worst Offenders in Bad Audio Forum Behavior Are Not Regular Forum Members
I’ve noticed first hand a disturbing trend over at Stereophile for the past couple of years that whenever someone knowledgeable challenges the mantra put forth by some of their editors, the Chief Editor, Mr. Atkinson, demands that the poster put forth personal information about themselves and any possible affiliations they may have with regard to employment that Mr. Atkinson might consider some kind of conflict of interest.
Not true, I’ve locked horns with JA many times over some of his measurements/statements, not once has he done this to me.
He/Stereophile, and the measurements they provide are great for audiophiles that can understand and apply them, as they give insight to a product from a different view, other than just relying on a reviewers subjective opinions. Sure they may have bias towards a product especially if it’s an advertiser, but that happens everywhere, also "maybe" here.
viridian, while not wanting to be argumentative, I must take issue with your above assertion: "Stereophile was completely subjective and had no testing program whatsoever when John Atkinson took over as editor." Sorry, that is absolutely not true. I discovered the mag in 1972, when founder J. Gordon Holt was it’s primary ( in some issues sole) contributor. JGH had been a reviewer at High Fidelity, performing both test-bench measurements and listening evaluations of hi-fi components. He continued both when he started Stereophile in 1962, I believe it was, and was still doing so when John Atkinson was hired by new owner Larry Archibald, to whom JGH had sold the mag. It is true to say, however, that Atkinson has expanded the battery of test-bench measurements performed on components under review.
"
And BTW Stereophile is a consumer magazine, not a trade magazine. As you said, no one is entitled to their own facts.
" - viridian
I leave it up to you on the time line of when things started to go south. The thread is mainly about the "need" for everyone on an internet forum "who we should listen to" to fully disclose their identity, job history, and possible industry affiliations before being taken seriously or being allowed to post. Yes, we've veered off course a little - I'm certainly to blame as much as anyone else. That being said, if Stereophile is in fact a "consumer magazine" then one would think there would be plenty of "consumers" hanging around where they were hanging around at THE CONSUMER ELECTRONICS SHOW - one of the largest industry expositions for CONSUMER electronics in the world. Have you seen the videos of Mr. Atkinson et al. frumping along in empty demo halls at this year's CES? Where were all of the consumers? The only people on camera were "manufacturers". Gee, I wonder why that is..... I have always operated on the philosophy that if "it walks, quacks, and floats like a duck - it's probably a duck". Of course, YMMV....
cj1965 You cannot deny with a straight face that page after page after page, month after month of flakey commentary about $100,000 speakers, $75000 amps, "modestly priced" $3000 cables hasn’t had a detrimental effect on trade show attendance and enthusiasm for new "affordable" hi fidelity equipment.
>>>>Get real. There were $100,000 speakers more than 20 years ago. In fact there were $200,000 speakers 20 years ago. Are you Rip Van Winkle? The last time I looked there are currently $105,000 turntables and $15K cartridges and $215,000 amps and gulp, $24,000 interconnects and $400 Fuses. (Don’t have a brain aneurysm.) If you wish to pump up your case, such as it is, a little bit I suggest you use the higher numbers. Then you can act really outraged. 😡
Succinct and spot on. Consumers used to look to trade magazines to assist in assessing performance virtues and offering guidance as to what represented value in the marketplace. Somewhere along the line, probably when test measurements were thrown out the window and things like $3000 cables, $5000 "power conditioners", and $50,000 amplifiers became "the norm", trade magazines like Stereophile began to lose credibility.And even with the blatant censorship demonstrated by the magazine's chief editor against a knowledgeable, independent voice of fact and reason surrounding the latest promotional product (MQA), for a good percentage of audiophiles, it's too painful to acknowledge they've been duped by a trade magazine that has been more interested in representing their financial interests than representing the interests of consumers. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. No one is entitled to their own facts. Stereophile and their paying advertisers haven't figured that out apparently. They seem to think they can make up the facts as they go along, censure dissenting voices, and no one will notice. Good luck with that.
There's a few interesting threads going on, on the Agon forum that are touching on some important topics and also showing the human side of this hobby and the current state of HEA and what people think about the decline of HEA. I'm traveling today, but during some of the stops I'm reading up as much as I can. Why? Because some of this (even though at times on the edge of trolling) is getting into some truths that need to be explored. I want to get into it more but for quickies.
HEA is in decline, but it's not due to portable technologies. HEA is it's own tiny club within the much larger audiophile world. I've been doing HEA shows since the 80's and it's easy to see why the decline has happened and continues to. So, trying to look at HEA as being subject to anything but itself doesn't really work. HEA is in decline because of it's performance, prices and attitude. HEA will continue to decline until it becomes archived or makes some important design changes. That's fact, and time will continue to be the proof in the pudding.
I understand that those deep into the investment are going to defend HEA till their last breath, or accept the next chapter or get out altogether. It's happening in real time, so the writing on the wall has been written a while back and we're seeing the end or recreation as it is taking place. I'm not sure the HEA forums are going to be able to grab onto this before it comes to light, but it's moving at a faster pace each day.
I hope people reading this don't take me as being negative, because I'm actually quite excited and the changes have made my business prosper, and there's nothing wrong with that. I also did want to say this before needed to board. Some of the things being said on this thread won't even be a factor a couple of years from now, so hopefully the calm on these threads can over come the heated debate type of Vibe.
"
JA is a friend of mine and I don’t appreciate your coming over here
disparaging him. Plus you’re a coward since he can’t defend himself.
Crawl back under whatever rock you came from. Still think that’s comic
relief?
" - geoffkait
Yes. Even more humorous than your first post. Carry on....
I've known about Agon for years but didn't know it had a forum. The only reason I found out it had a forum was kind of by accident. I created an account to buy a Perreaux amp and was frustrated by a glitch in the bid/buy it now system that screwed up the sale. It was so exasperating that I logged on and looked for a website to vent my frustration - I bought a PMF 3350 under the "buy it now" for $500 but the stupid interface was saying I "won it" for $1. Obviously, the seller (very nice Agon user btw) wasn't going to sell it for that amount so the sale was stuck in limbo. In the process of "venting" I wound up posting on Agon's forum and didn't even realize it was their site until afterwards - how clueless is that? Fortunately for me, Agon staff and the seller were very helpful in getting the item relisted and I promptly bought it again - this time successfully. If that didn't happen, I never would have known about this forum. So if you're a believer in fate or happenstance - there's your example. Additionally, this all happened right around the time a number of forums and trade magazines were talking about MQA. None of this was planned. While I can understand and appreciate why people in general are skeptical of new accounts on forums, sometimes multiple concurrent events conspire to produce situations that might at first glance appear to be suspicious. That's life. The song "Roll the Bones" comes to mind.....
LOL! Please excuse my lapse in perception - it's an audio forum after all so I tend to expect the usual "who do you think you are, you're not John "freakin'" Atkinson...." routine.
cj - Do you see any irony in the title of this thread you started? Asking because when I look at details, it appears you've only been an A'gon "member" since Feb of this year; further, it's hard to miss the remarkably collegial and polite conversational tone you have set.
You cannot deny with a straight face that page after page after page,
month after month of flakey commentary about $100,000 speakers, $75000
amps, "modestly priced" $3000 cables hasn't had a detrimental effect on
trade show attendance and enthusiasm for new "affordable" hi fidelity
equipment.
Oh yes I can, absolutely. I don't know why or how content in a consumer magazine would hurt trade show attendance at all. If you have any evidence to support your assertion, please share it.
If the only purveyors left standing are peddling overpriced jewelry,
it's simply a matter of time before the house of cards collapses or
chokes on its own hot air.
That's very colorful language, but you're guilty here of circular reasoning, or what they used to call "begging the question." It's a logical fallacy.
Miracle of miracles - there are plenty of things we actually agree on, who knew? As to the demise or substantial "shrinkage" of the high end market segment, I don't think you can lay it all at the feet of portable phones and the MP3 generation or digital audio. And notice I didn't say the high end's downward spiral is completely attributable to a trade press that's resting on a house of cards. To wit:
"
Sadly, this pay to play game HAS HELPED decimate what was at one time a much larger market segment.
" cj1965
You cannot deny with a straight face that page after page after page, month after month of flakey commentary about $100,000 speakers, $75000 amps, "modestly priced" $3000 cables hasn't had a detrimental effect on trade show attendance and enthusiasm for new "affordable" hi fidelity equipment. And yes, the internet and online shopping has put a major hurt on brick and mortar establishments which in turn has struck at the heart of the high end retail audio sales business model. The direct marketing model used by some manufacturers has caused overall market shrinkage as the squeeze on retailers has ultimately hurt accessibility and thus market sustainability. Without a nearby auditioning location, having to fly to the nearest retailer to listen to the latest Dynaudio or Nelson Pass offering tends to put a damper on the whole exercise. So it is multi faceted in that poor accessibility coupled with trade show/magazine obsession with high priced audio jewelry has put a major damper on enthusiasm for the high end. If the only purveyors left standing are peddling overpriced jewelry, it's simply a matter of time before the house of cards collapses or chokes on its own hot air.
JA is a friend of mine and I don’t appreciate your coming over here disparaging him. Plus you’re a coward since he can’t defend himself. Crawl back under whatever rock you came from. Still think that’s comic relief?
To educated professionals in the business, these trade magazines offer the illusion of integrity and honesty and nothing more. Mr. Atkinson’s blatant censorship policy with respect to an unknown who has no industry affiliations - a person like Archimago - is a shining example of just how corrupt the "audiophile trade press" really is. Sadly, this pay to play game has helped decimate what was at one time a much larger market segment. The focus shift to ever more costly "audio jewelry" in recent years has accelerated the demise - to the extent that there really no longer is a presence at the CES. This year was a disaster. And the trade press have no one else to blame. With their greed, they brought it on themselves.
I’ve been posting, ie paying attention in a myriad of ways..... since before the internet existed [’93-’94, approx], with about 30k pages of self written data out there. I’ve been watching this since before it began.
Portable digital audio, cell phones and ipods, is what killed the audio market. Changing demographics. $500-1000 cell phones... where the money would have went toward a modest audio system in a prior era of electronics and communication. Cellphones, portable audio, computers, and the internet, four things that were not there in the heyday of audio. People will 'get off' in whatever way they can, so it is no surprise that audio (full size gear) was so successful for that period of about 30-40 years, and no surprise that it declined as the 4 mentioned horsemen of the 'home audio/stereo' apocalypse came on line, over time.
Anything else (that has happened) is almost purely minor and incidental to the situation. Almost zero of it can be laid at the feet of an audio magazine, no matter how it is run. MQA is an attempt at explicit and overt control of a shrinking market.
The market went in the direction it could as it is about profit, not saving music for ..someone..(sacrificing themselves on an altar, for who, specifically?), it’s about keeping the doors open and the given audio enterprises. They simply went to where the customers were, in a shrinking and changing demographic. No hidden agenda there, just common sense as applied to business structuring in a largely insurmountable scenario.
MQA is the same, it’s just good business sense for members of the RIAA and so on. Limited views they may all be, in my thinking, but they are what they are. And they (as business ideals and as open acts) are not automatically sacrificial to the ideals I may personally hold, they simply are. I happen to think MQA is a very bad idea and that much music will be lost to it, for a decade or more, if it goes mainstream.
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