@unsound
I think we've all witnessed that first hand on one forum or another. When the salesmanship or torpedoing gets too obvious, in most well moderated forums, the moderator steps in to either curtail the behavior or demand disclosure. I think in the fairly well known case of Archimago, however, you can see my point. Not everyone who happens to be knowledgeable and possess a contrarian viewpoint or experience, wants to have his/her name bandied about the internet. And this fact can be used as a crutch for censorship. Sadly, I think that is what has happened in Archimago's case.
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@cedargrover
Very interesting bit of info there. Thanks. For what it's worth, I don't doubt for a minute that sites requiring full disclosure have a tendency to force participants to be on their best behavior. Human nature being what it is, no real surprise there. I don't know what the percentages are. In my own personal experience (all I can base it on), "full disclosure" sites are very rare and like Nonoise eloquently stated, both approaches certainly have their strengths and challenges.
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@cedargrover
Yes Cedar, but then, how often do you run into someone on a wine forum that blurts out something along the lines of "that merlot truly sucks!". Deep down, I think they know that being that frank would leave them high and dry on that company's next wine tasting line... Civil behavior and decorum is pretty much a requirement to play the game, no?
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@stereo5
Unquestionably, the editor at Stereophile can "do what he likes" with the forum he closely moderates. Not a lot of insight in that statement. Whether or not he goes on other forums and receives criticism/praise from others is equally irrelevant and lacking in pertinence or insight with respect to this thread. Factually, he has done little to curtail the excesses of some of the well known writers that appear on the Stereophile website and in print. Some of the most offensive swearing and vitriol I've witnessed in forums over the past five years has come from regular Stereophile writers and staff responding to criticism in a variety of forums on the net. The bottom line of this thread is to point up the hypocrisy of a "policy" that censors well qualified, well intentioned, and yes, WELL BEHAVED private individuals from posting information on their site simply because the information disagrees with what Stereophile and its staff are pushing - under the guise of the poster's failure to disclose his/her personal identity and possible affiliations. Mr. Atkinson may indeed be a pleasant fellow to deal with in person. That's not the subject of this thread. His errant "policy" is. You will never find him demanding such disclosure from posters who agree with his often times erroneous, misleading, or agenda ridden statements. Only those who present opposing views/evidence. If that were not IN FACT the case, you can be sure this thread would not exist.
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"
It would seem to me that any one in the industry or with commercial
ties to it should also use their real names (unless there is some
'whistleblowing' aspect to their activities)
" whart
@whart
Yes, whistleblowing and the fear of reprisal is very much a problem with a lot of industries - not just this tiny segment of the consumer electronics industry. The trade "press" salespeople like those employed by Stereophile are looked upon as a necessary evil. It's no secret that a number of manufacturers avoid them like the plague as much of what is said in reviews bears no relation to any kind of reality. It is and has been a pay to play system for a very long time. It's not difficult for anyone with a technical background to see through most of the ridiculous smoke screens they call "reviews".
Case in point (without mentioning names of people or products). A loudspeaker with an off the shelf 10 inch driver mated to a 1 inch dome tweeter was given high praise a while back. It was clear from the review/write up that a cozy relationship existed between the "manufacturer" and the editors/writers. And it was also clear that the loudspeaker had massive, highly predictable problems, which were born out in the measurements. A faint reference to poor integration between the two drivers was given without acknowledging it was a basic design flaw resulting in very uneven off axis response. The conclusion given was along the lines of "despite design challenges/compromises, the designer achieved what he set out to accomplish and with some careful setup/adjustment, the end result can be good. " What should have been said is that the designer violated some very basic principles, needlessly crippling performance because of a lack of knowledge/experience, resulting in a product that can't be recommended - especially considering there are many properly designed speakers costing many thousands less that outperform it in just about every category.
When was the last time you heard that kind of a review about anything from the likes of Stereophile or The Absolute Sound? Throughout its history, I can think of only one or two such reviews from Stereophile.
To educated professionals in the business, these trade magazines offer the illusion of integrity and honesty and nothing more. Mr. Atkinson's blatant censorship policy with respect to an unknown who has no industry affiliations - a person like Archimago - is a shining example of just how corrupt the "audiophile trade press" really is. Sadly, this pay to play game has helped decimate what was at one time a much larger market segment. The focus shift to ever more costly "audio jewelry" in recent years has accelerated the demise - to the extent that there really no longer is a presence at the CES. This year was a disaster. And the trade press have no one else to blame. With their greed, they brought it on themselves.
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@Teo_Audio
Instead of focusing on me and the style or form of my attempt at communication, why not try following the "golden rule" of forums and enumerate the specific errors, omissions, or mischaracterizations contained in the thread that bother you so much. In other words, instead of attacking the messenger, attack the message if you have any ammunition to effectively launch such an attack. In the context of this forum, that is acceptable and expected. Labeling the thread a rant without offering any evidence to contradict the information presented is typical "subjectivist" propaganda BS.
Back to the subject of the thread. Archimago is not an individual affiliated with the audio or recording industry. If you or Mr. Atkinson have information to the contrary - BRING IT and dispense with the rheems of personal attacks on other's credibility. If you continue with personal attacks, you and your company will get them in return. And take my word for it, you live in a very large glass mansion.
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@ teo_audio
No one is manipulating or controlling anything here. And John Atkinson, by censoring Archimago, "called no one out" other than himself. I would expect people in the cable industry who have relied very heavily on the whitewash pass they've gotten from Stereophile to come running to Mr. Atkinson's defense....et voila....here they come....
....Welcome to Teo Audio - Welcome to the "new physics of cables"
No offense Mr. Teo_Audio, but this thread is a "BS free zone". You will not get a "free pass" from me - either with respect to the mumbo jumbo garbage you peddle about cables or about a knowledgeable, well intentioned forum member (Archimago) who values his privacy and does not wish to be a big fat target for crooks in the recording industry.
One last thought, your rambling rant of a post above is one of the worst examples I've seen of hundreds of words slung together that say absolutely nothing. "Be professional?" " Be real?" What a joke.
How about hosting a double blind study that backs up any of the myriad of wild claims you have attributed to your products over the years. How about a scintilla of evidentiary proof by way of experiment or some kind of reproducible process that can verify anything you have to say about the products you sell? Professional???
Real???? Seriously? We're now going to get lectured by a cable manufacturer on the subject of reality, authenticity, integrity? Is this supposed to be a lame attempt at humor on your part?
By all means....throw out some more useless rants defending the indefensible. It only serves to draw more deserved attention to who you are and what you represent.
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"
So cj, do you have any industry affiliations, where do you live, how do
are you and do you have an EE or similar degree in acoustics or higher
mathematics?
" - vindian
I prefer to let the accuracy/verifiability of my posts speak for my credentials/qualifications. If it isn't obvious by now that I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, no amount of "credentials" are going to make the case for "who I am" any clearer for you. And once again, the topics presented in this forum are supposed to be about all things Audio. This site is not dedicated to boosting all of the fragile egos that drift throughout the world wide web on a daily basis. PLAY THE BALL - NOT THE MAN....PLAY THE BALL....NOT THE MAN....PLAY THE BALL....NOT THE MAN...
I know it's hard for people who spend most of their energy propping up belief and "confidence in experts" to break free from the habit of navel gazing and parroting the phrases of their idols and heroes. But for once, try focusing on the messages presented and if you have to, do some independent research to verify claims that are presented here on this forum. Satisfy your own curiosity with research that bolsters or denigrates the claims of others. Science is not as bad as what all the subjectivists have been telling you. It won't bite you. You may actually learn from the experience and be able to share that knowledge with others - something to be satisfied with and proud of. We all are searching for purpose in this world on one level or another. You don't have to confine that purpose to being a "believer" all the time. Being an explorer can be rewarding too.
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Go bother some other audio forum. We have our own fish to fry. 🐟 🐟 🐟
- geoffkait
And some more comic relief from geoff - right on cue....as usual...
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@teo_audio
Miracle of miracles - there are plenty of things we actually agree on, who knew? As to the demise or substantial "shrinkage" of the high end market segment, I don't think you can lay it all at the feet of portable phones and the MP3 generation or digital audio. And notice I didn't say the high end's downward spiral is completely attributable to a trade press that's resting on a house of cards. To wit:
"
Sadly, this pay to play game HAS HELPED decimate what was at one time a much larger market segment.
" cj1965
You cannot deny with a straight face that page after page after page, month after month of flakey commentary about $100,000 speakers, $75000 amps, "modestly priced" $3000 cables hasn't had a detrimental effect on trade show attendance and enthusiasm for new "affordable" hi fidelity equipment. And yes, the internet and online shopping has put a major hurt on brick and mortar establishments which in turn has struck at the heart of the high end retail audio sales business model. The direct marketing model used by some manufacturers has caused overall market shrinkage as the squeeze on retailers has ultimately hurt accessibility and thus market sustainability. Without a nearby auditioning location, having to fly to the nearest retailer to listen to the latest Dynaudio or Nelson Pass offering tends to put a damper on the whole exercise. So it is multi faceted in that poor accessibility coupled with trade show/magazine obsession with high priced audio jewelry has put a major damper on enthusiasm for the high end. If the only purveyors left standing are peddling overpriced jewelry, it's simply a matter of time before the house of cards collapses or chokes on its own hot air.
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"
JA is a friend of mine and I don’t appreciate your coming over here
disparaging him. Plus you’re a coward since he can’t defend himself.
Crawl back under whatever rock you came from. Still think that’s comic
relief?
" - geoffkait
Yes. Even more humorous than your first post. Carry on....
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@vindian
LOL! Please excuse my lapse in perception - it's an audio forum after all so I tend to expect the usual "who do you think you are, you're not John "freakin'" Atkinson...." routine.
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@ghosthouse
I've known about Agon for years but didn't know it had a forum. The only reason I found out it had a forum was kind of by accident. I created an account to buy a Perreaux amp and was frustrated by a glitch in the bid/buy it now system that screwed up the sale. It was so exasperating that I logged on and looked for a website to vent my frustration - I bought a PMF 3350 under the "buy it now" for $500 but the stupid interface was saying I "won it" for $1. Obviously, the seller (very nice Agon user btw) wasn't going to sell it for that amount so the sale was stuck in limbo. In the process of "venting" I wound up posting on Agon's forum and didn't even realize it was their site until afterwards - how clueless is that? Fortunately for me, Agon staff and the seller were very helpful in getting the item relisted and I promptly bought it again - this time successfully. If that didn't happen, I never would have known about this forum. So if you're a believer in fate or happenstance - there's your example.
Additionally, this all happened right around the time a number of forums and trade magazines were talking about MQA. None of this was planned. While I can understand and appreciate why people in general are skeptical of new accounts on forums, sometimes multiple concurrent events conspire to produce situations that might at first glance appear to be suspicious. That's life. The song "Roll the Bones" comes to mind.....
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@michaelgreenaudio-
"performance, prices, and attitude"
Succinct and spot on. Consumers used to look to trade magazines to assist in assessing performance virtues and offering guidance as to what represented value in the marketplace. Somewhere along the line, probably when test measurements were thrown out the window and things like $3000 cables, $5000 "power conditioners", and $50,000 amplifiers became "the norm", trade magazines like Stereophile began to lose credibility.And even with the blatant censorship demonstrated by the magazine's chief editor against a knowledgeable, independent voice of fact and reason surrounding the latest promotional product (MQA), for a good percentage of audiophiles, it's too painful to acknowledge they've been duped by a trade magazine that has been more interested in representing their financial interests than representing the interests of consumers. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. No one is entitled to their own facts. Stereophile and their paying advertisers haven't figured that out apparently. They seem to think they can make up the facts as they go along, censure dissenting voices, and no one will notice. Good luck with that.
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"
And BTW Stereophile is a consumer magazine, not a trade magazine. As you said, no one is entitled to their own facts.
" - viridian
I leave it up to you on the time line of when things started to go south. The thread is mainly about the "need" for everyone on an internet forum "who we should listen to" to fully disclose their identity, job history, and possible industry affiliations before being taken seriously or being allowed to post. Yes, we've veered off course a little - I'm certainly to blame as much as anyone else.
That being said, if Stereophile is in fact a "consumer magazine" then one would think there would be plenty of "consumers" hanging around where they were hanging around at THE CONSUMER ELECTRONICS SHOW - one of the largest industry expositions for CONSUMER electronics in the world. Have you seen the videos of Mr. Atkinson et al. frumping along in empty demo halls at this year's CES? Where were all of the consumers? The only people on camera were "manufacturers". Gee, I wonder why that is.....
I have always operated on the philosophy that if "it walks, quacks, and floats like a duck - it's probably a duck". Of course, YMMV....
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@viridian
@bdp24
On the subject of facts and "revisionist history".....
If memory serves correctly, Julian Hirsch was doing plenty of measurements at Audio magazine way back in the 1970s and 1980's prior to the appearance of everyone's favorite equipment testing hero MR. John Atkinson.
The issue that shouldn't get lost in the "who started doing measurements first war" is when Stereophile started doing reviews of equipment that possessed no lab testing results or measurements whatsoever. I firmly believe that if it were not for such fluff "reviews", the "power conditioner", exotic cable, and "vinyl comeback" industries as we know them today - would not even exist. To my knowledge, none of the current crop of industry trade representatives masquerading as consumer audio product reviewers have had the audacity to create a new category of review for magic resistors, magic capacitors, isolator feet, wire suspenders, acoustic energy "grounding rods" and similar such "tweaks". With the current trajectory, however, it would not surprise me if a new "tweak corner" should appear in Stereophile pages.
What is truly humorous to watch though, are the videos of Michael Fremer swearing at cheap nostalgia turntables at CES. Not sure if Youtube took them down for blatant, gratuitous vulgarity but it was very funny watching this delusional character bemoan the fact that cheap nostalgia kitch turntables outnumbered his prized $50,000 offerings by at least 20:1 - as if the "vinyl comeback" was truly anything other than nostalgia. (Clearly the subject of other threads....)
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@whart
I appreciate your comment and viewpoint however before completely side tracking the thread I would like to respectfully request that you start a new thread on turntables or add to a preexisting thread on that subject pertaining to nostalgia. My purpose in bringing up Fremer was to draw attention to the impact a trade magazine can have in light of comments that have downplayed its role or significance.
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@viridian
It should go without saying that some measurements have been retained over the years. I don't think I said ALL measurements were abandoned. The point, which I thought was obvious, was that there have never been measurements of cables and power conditioners- at least none that I have seen. If you know of such measurements, please post a link. Thanks.
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@viridian
Here's a direct quote of myself:
"
Somewhere along the line, probably when test measurements were thrown
out the window and things like $3000 cables, $5000 "power conditioners",
and $50,000 amplifiers became "the norm" -cj1965
Translation: when $3000 cable sets and $5000 power conditioners appeared in "reviews" - around the same time that $50,000 amplifiers seemed to become a lot more common - test measurements (in reference to cables and power conditioners - not necessarily amps) were avoided. I didn't mean to confuse anyone but apparently I did. Sorry about that.
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@viridian
- "What test measurements were thrown out the window?"
With respect to cables and power conditioners - any/all - meaning the need for measurements was thrown out the window. It's a colloquial expression. Perhaps that explains your confusion about what I was trying to say.
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