mahgister5,543 posts05-21-2021 3:13pmHe’s stuck on physics from 500 years ago. That’s all I need to know. His broadbrushing of engineers is also just plain wrong, ignorant and flat out dumb to make such definitive statements. I apologized yesterday to you by distorting one of your post about some/all psychologists.... And you were right, sometimes we react not so cleverly than what we think...
I think your answer of this post is way more a distortion than mine was about yours...
I expect your mischaracterization like mine is an accident...
This scientist DOES NOT stick to the newtonian paradign in his post.... Suggesting the opposite is not faithful to his post...
I hope you will recognize that fact ....
My response was not about you. |
I apparently know the thread is about wire directionality not spatial cues and localization. Does a backwards wire help you find the speaker in the dark? |
andy21,319 posts05-21-2021 4:04pmI’m not saying to measure anything. Just don’t cheat and use your eyes when trying to judge what you’re hearing. That’s all. djones apparently doesn’t know how the brain functions in term of localizing a sound source. Both eyes and ears are needed for the brain to process and localize where the sound is coming from.
This is incorrect. You don’t need to see that a sound is coming from the front, sides, or back. Must you look at a surround sound speaker to hear that it’s coming from the side or rear? Binaural hearing is quite an amazing invention. Eyesight has nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, lack of eyesight happens to sharpen that sense. https://knowingneurons.com/2013/03/15/how-does-the-brain-locate-sound-sources/ |
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My response was not about you.
You are very right about that.... But i am sensible to blatent distortion in a public discussion.... |
The same also happened with volunteers who had been blind since birth, and thus showing that neither visual imagery nor visual experience is necessary for the primary visual cortex to decipher sounds. Though interesting I'm not sure what this has to do with wire directionality. It does support the contention eyesight isn't that important in localization only the evolutionary area of the brain used for vision. |
@mahgister
“During the study, we found that, although people with sight may use their visual imagination, those without sight, still used the same part of the brain to translate the sound, meaning that humans have a basic brain mechanism, independent from visual imagery and, more intriguingly, visual experience.
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It’s called derailing a thread. |
This reference i put in the post above illustrate my point about the multidimensionality of perception, here with 2 dimensions at least intertwined, the hearing and visual pathways...
It seems evident then that reducing any aspect of the auditory experience to limited electrical measuring tools that do not even exhausted one of the 2 dimensions implicated, and perhaps more dimensions at play , is a bit presomptuous...
It is a belief that condition such attitude like religious belief.... Engineering beliefs or reductionism are no more "noble" than religious one...
Science is cautious with any dogmas.... Especially about dogmas born in his womb...
Then if many people testimonies converge about this "wired direction" experience this does not prove anything for sure, save that these testimonies cannot be ridiculized or dismiss especially because someone trust more a voltmeter than his own ears and the ears of others... Voltmeter are trustful ,Ears too....
In serious matters dogmas and sterile skepticism are useless....Testimonies are only facts to verify....Mocking people for that experience is not acceptable....
Keeping the mind open is the way.... |
It is called derailing a thread I try to elevate the debate....Instead of the insults eexhange.... Anyone who is not totally with your reductionist stance about that, you call him ignorant... I just post something that show the complexities involved in sound sensation , translation, and experience... Djones you miss the point like usual.... Answering your obsessive technological stance is useless....All is placebos for you ... Mind is an organ that product the illusion of consciousness and all that dissipate at our death.... end of story....It is easy to walk your universe.... |
This reference i put in the post above illustrate my point about the multidimensionality of perception, here with 2 dimensions at least intertwined, the hearing and visual pathways... No the reference doesn't illustrate your point, it disputes it. The visual pathway isn't involved, only the areas of the brain used to process vision. |
You are comical...
Have you read my post ?
I made this reference to illustrate the way the brain translate sound impression....Not using only hearing patways but other pathways of the brain....
In this thread i argue for the multidimensional aspect of perceptions and the impossibility to reduce them to a few engineereing tools when we speak about auditory experience about cables or others experience....
Arguing with you is impossible anyway you repeat the only thing you believe, matter only exist, subjective experience are delusions if not correlated with some measures... |
Wow. Perception is everything...except absolute. |
subjective experience are delusions if not correlated with some measures... I've never claimed this. You've assumed it from your irrational thinking. There are 2 distinct things involved and you keep intertwining them. 1. Sound This we can measure very accurately. 2. Human perception of sound This is extremely plastic and subject to learning, mood, and all other outside influences. This thread is about 1. Sound and can reversing a basic copper cable change it? Now, I've grown tired of you constantly putting words in my mouth and ridicule of me with your childish name calling. |
Wow. Perception is everything...except absolute I never said that sound which is not only a physical phenomena but also a psychoacoustic one is "absolute".... I said that sound experience cannot be reduced to measuring tools but only CORRELATED with them... I also said that sound perception contrary to a voltmeter or a frequencies meter or any other electronical engineering tools is MULTIDIMENSIONAL and not unidimensional like each one of these tool... Your "wow" is only a derision not an argument ..... |
This thread is about 1. Sound and can reversing a basic copper cable change it? There is PHYSICAL sound, this is the phenomenon pertaining to physical acoustic.... There is human perception of sound and perception of other phenomena associated with sound, like pitch or timbre, or information about the source of sound.... Changing the cable direction even if this do not correspond to any measurable physical changing KNOWN factors in the cable itself when using the appropriate electronical tools, COULD anyway be an information about some unknown factor read through the sound by the human body and consciousness... Nobody can reject these POSSIBILITIES.... Negating this possibility because someone believe that all human perception means pure subjective relative meaninglessness compared to an electronic tool is going TOO FAR.... This is my point... I dont have personal experience with cable inversion but many people and even some engineers vouch for this experience... I take these testimonies seriously.... I dont want to accuse them of being gullible or ignorant... I consider ignorant the believer and his brother the skeptic.... They are stalled in the way.... I prefer to keep an open mind without mocking the experience of others... And reducing psychoacoustic to acoustic cues is a simplification of a complex scientific subject.... a CORRELATION between these 2 fields is the basis not a reductionist approach....Music for example is not reducible to physical acoustic sorry if you dont know that .... |
mahgister5,550 posts05-21-2021 8:28pmWow. Perception is everything...except absolute
I never said that sound which is not only a physical phenomena but also a psychoacoustic one is "absolute".... I said that sound experience cannot be reduced to measuring tools but only CORRELATED with them...
I also said that sound perception contrary to a voltmeter or a frequencies meter or any other electronical engineering tools is MULTIDIMENSIONAL and not unidimensional like each one of these tool...
Your "wow" is only a derision not an argument .....
You keep straying from and continue to derail the entire discussion. It was brought up that vision is used to figure out where sounds are coming from...eyes. It’s been studied that eyes are not part of the process, yet visual processes in the brain help process the localization of sounds...even without the benefit of having eyes. |
Ahem .... I got something the objectivists can chew on. Given the complexity, this will probably take them some times. Unless, djones et al ... can possess sonar capability, hearing by itself is not going to give you accurate localization. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2674475/ The visual and auditory systems frequently work together to facilitate the identification and localization of objects and events in the external world. Experience plays a critical role in establishing and maintaining congruent visual–auditory associations, so that the different sensory cues associated with targets that can be both seen and heard are synthesized appropriately. For stimulus location, visual information is normally more accurate and reliable and provides a reference for calibrating the perception of auditory space. During development, vision plays a key role in aligning neural representations of space in the brain, as revealed by the dramatic changes produced in auditory responses when visual inputs are altered, and is used throughout life to resolve short-term spatial conflicts between these modalities. However, accurate, and even supra-normal, auditory localization abilities can be achieved in the absence of vision, and the capacity of the mature brain to relearn to localize sound in the presence of substantially altered auditory spatial cues does not require visuomotor feedback. Thus, while vision is normally used to coordinate information across the senses, the neural circuits responsible for spatial hearing can be recalibrated in a vision-independent fashion. Nevertheless, early multisensory experience appears to be crucial for the emergence of an ability to match signals from different sensory modalities and therefore for the outcome of audiovisual-based rehabilitation of deaf patients in whom hearing has been restored by cochlear implantation. |
andy21,320 posts05-21-2021 9:51pmAhem .... I got something the objectivists can chew on. Given the complexity, this will probably take them some times. Unless, djones et al ... can possess sonar capability, hearing by itself is not going to give you accurate localization.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2674475/
The visual and auditory systems frequently work together to facilitate the identification and localization of objects and events in the external world. Experience plays a critical role in establishing and maintaining congruent visual–auditory associations, so that the different sensory cues associated with targets that can be both seen and heard are synthesized appropriately. For stimulus location, visual information is normally more accurate and reliable and provides a reference for calibrating the perception of auditory space. During development, vision plays a key role in aligning neural representations of space in the brain, as revealed by the dramatic changes produced in auditory responses when visual inputs are altered, and is used throughout life to resolve short-term spatial conflicts between these modalities. However, accurate, and even supra-normal, auditory localization abilities can be achieved in the absence of vision, and the capacity of the mature brain to relearn to localize sound in the presence of substantially altered auditory spatial cues does not require visuomotor feedback. Thus, while vision is normally used to coordinate information across the senses, the neural circuits responsible for spatial hearing can be recalibrated in a vision-independent fashion. Nevertheless, early multisensory experience appears to be crucial for the emergence of an ability to match signals from different sensory modalities and therefore for the outcome of audiovisual-based rehabilitation of deaf patients in whom hearing has been restored by cochlear implantation.
Ahem...I guess you did read the first paragraph of the link I posted above. Within 2 degrees. Pretty darn accurate with using your eyes. "The brain has an amazing ability to identify the source of sounds around you. When driving, you can tell where an approaching fire truck is coming from and pull over accordingly. In the classic swimming pool game of “Marco Polo,” the player who is “it” swims toward the players who says “Polo.” In the field of neuroscience, this ability is called sound localization. Humans can locate the source of a sound with extreme precision (within 2 degrees of space)! This remarkable feat is accomplished by the brain’s ability to interpret the information from both ears. So how does your brain do it?" |
Without using your eyes. Too late to edit. |
. Music for example is not reducible to physical acoustic sorry if you dont know that .... I don’t even know what this means. If you’re claiming music is not reducible to physical soundwaves you’re wrong. The rest of your post deals with 2. Human perception of sound. This thread is about 1. Sound and can it be measured and scientifically tested as to be audibly different according to direction of the conductor. Yes, it can. I find most of what you post not only wrong but demonstrably wrong. You wander off into areas not relevant to the question trying to prove your dogmatic opinion about not only how sound propagates but how humans perceive sound. The above comment about music isn't soundwaves if I'm deciphering you correctly is laughable. I'll quit referencing you in my posts please reciprocate. |
djones51It’s pretty simple , except for little Andy ... Your little insults do nothing to further your little arguments. ... if you claim to hear differences in cables based on direction, prove it, and proof isn’t me and my buddies tried last weekend. It needs to be a properly controlled blind test. That is complete nonsense. And we’ve been through this before. This is a hobbyist’s group, not a scientific forum. No one here owes you proof of anything, ever. If you want others to supply "scientific proof" to suit your sensibilities and listening tests conducted to your specifications, you are in the wrong forum. So please stop your incessant demands for something that apparently no one here has any intention of providing to you. |
Ahem .... I got something the objectivists can chew on. Given the complexity, this will probably take them some times. Unless, djones et al ... can possess sonar capability, hearing by itself is not going to give you accurate localization. Funny thing is there are numerous examples of people having something very much akin to sonar. It generally is referred to as echolocation, and has been the focus of some experiments/studies, scientific-like and everything ( they probably even use voltmeters and stuff ). One of the most interesting take-a-ways is that in folks who are really adept at echolocation acoustic information is to an interesting extent processed by the part of the brain usually reserved for visual processing ( which kinda sorta means they see with their ears !? ).... And just taking a wee leap sideways from that ....wonder how this process to develop the ability to use echolocation ( like we all have it though some folks have developed a greater ability in that area...blind people, for obvious reasons...) intersects with the learned ability among some in the audiophile community to play the imaging game with our systems ( which requires, at a minimum, good ears,a well sorted system/acoustic environment, ability to focus attention to acoustic cues/detail, and some imagination to make the leap from purely visual/acoustic data processing to some combination thereof that results in imaging...) ... Bottom line it may well be we all have the ability to play sonar games and we often do when we sit in front of our systems and get blown away by the imaging... Cheers |
Djones51, you are going about this all wrong. Things like this used to bother me, but I found it is better to let audiophiles have their cable delusions. The more the better. The more they spend on cables the less money they have to spend on the things that matter to sound. That means less competition for us to purchase those items. The more they spend on things that don’t matter the less we need to spend on that do.
Let them twist science with their rather interesting views, let them insult engineers. It tells much about them and they hurt themselves more than anyone else. They make fun of other websites meanwhile the likes of Toole and Pass, and many actual audio experts will post at those sites, not here. People who have moved the science sound forward are not here are they? I did see Ted Denney started to post here though. See what I mean?
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I don’t even know what this means. If you’re claiming music is not reducible to physical soundwaves you’re wrong. My point is that processing of sound by the brain /body is multidimensional, after an article about visual and hearing pathways used by the brain in the processing of sounds impressions, here is an article about the participation of the motor system in the evaluation of timbre experience... If you dont know that sound experience CANNOT be reduced to pure physics you know nothing.... Sorry.... If many people testimonies said that cable direction is important PERHAPS something is manifested through the complex multidimensional ways the brain/body evaluated sound and could explain or being related to this experience about wired direction... Are we obliged to be stubborn? Are we obliged to reduce psychoacoustic science to acoustic only and reduce sound experience to some very unidimensional tools in engineering of cables? We are not..... By the way accusing me of derailing this thread is pure bad faith.... I already contributed with few interesting articles and even if wires direction experience could be proved to be only a "placebos" , these articles are interesting and NECESSARY because it seems some dont even understand that music processing experience is NOT reducible to acoustic... A simple example of that is the " musical time concept " which is a body/brain autonomous time unrelated to the time of the clock, which autonomous time is born from the works qualities to be played in an organic manner....... No maestro direct and conduct an orchestra with the help of a clock to recreate the musical time related to a specific symphonies.... Time here is a WHOLE without parts.....The metronome indication is a start point for the synchronization of the orchestra not an endpoint...The endpoint of an interpretation is a "time" or a complex duration which is qualitatively differentiated and not quantitatively reducible to the equal division parts of a clock.... All other musical concepts could be described this way transecending pure physical acoustic...It is all psychoacoustic science matter for analysis and experiment like in the article i just submit here... Science is not a "comic book" matter with 2 opposing gangs : the "objectivist" and the "subjectivists"... I prefer the less stubborn of these 2 gangs here .... But i dont have opinion myself about the subject of directed wiring, i only had a working brain....And i think that perception is NEVER unidimensional..... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322467774_Embodied_listening_and_timbre_Perceptual_acoustical_and_neural_correlates |
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And i will add that perceived sound by humans are not "in the cable " but are created by the brain body.... And these qualities are not necessarily only illusions or placebos, they can be for sure, but they can be indication of other phenomena also...
Then what is perceived in sound experience cannot always be measured with simple electronic tools...
And there exist also the possibility for some qualities of the cable not measured yet by our actual tools to give rise in some conditions for educated listeners ( the right audiophile bias) to this percieved difference between directions...
I dont know....And none of the "objectivist" here knows the final answer either with absolute confidence.... They only claim what they claims with what they know in physics.... Those who vouch for this difference describe their listening experience...Who is right is an open question....
Some perhaps make money with "cables" marketing but it is not a reason to be unscientific here with this subject....
I am interested by this subject anyway and i dont know the answer... |
You see djones51. Look at these last posts. They have nothing to do with the topic. There is not point getting riled with people who claim their position is scientific while illustrating they don’t understand the science.
My friend the cable guy contracted a scientist to do something. Sure he did. That is why there is no report or evidence of this. You can’t argue against that. How do you argue against something completely lacking substance? You can’t argue against stuff that is made up. It’s not even worth it to try. Their arguments end up nothing but a call to faith. There is a clear tell between people who know what they are talking about and those that do not. |
Funny thing is there are numerous examples of people having something very much akin to sonar. It generally is referred to as echolocation, and has been the focus of some experiments/studies, scientific-like and everything ( they probably even use voltmeters and stuff ). Can these people maneuver in a dark room? No because they are not bats. There is a difference from having some special skills vs. actually possessing capability that can paint the surrounding with sound. Bats can do that and dolphins can but human can't. |
Can these people maneuver in a dark room? No because they are not bats. There is a difference from having some special skills vs. actually possessing capability that can paint the surrounding with sound. Bats can do that and dolphins can but human can’t many blind people see with sounds it is a common place fact illustrating the human abilities like animals... Try that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofvXF6UQvc This case of Ethan and daniel is pure echolocation in human https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9lCbFOJ18Q There is more in human perception that there is in a voltmeter.... That does not means that cable direction exist.... That means we cannot trust a frequencies meter to know it exist or not .... Saying the opposite is faith in a witch called technology.... Technology is NOT science by any means.... |
I am curious to know why if they could, why would they still need a stick to go around? Maybe in some special cases, but I could only see two vid on youtube.
I do recall some circumstances where people claim to have cured their cancer with their mind, but there are on a few reported cases. |
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Why human use stick unlike bats and dolphins?
Because they take advantage of their hands and because they walk on solid earth they dont swim or fly... |
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I do recall some circumstances where people claim to have cured their cancer with their mind, but there are on a few reported cases.
The miraculous healing of Bruno Groning are so well documented that this 3 hours videos will blow your mind... It is a bit difficult here to establish fraud....Try it.... 😊 Good luck.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNlXuclHhVc |
Hey maybe you can start a business curing people with cancer using their mind. Can make a lot of money. Win a Nobel Prize too. |
By the way this take only few minutes and an open mind to go way further....
You know that plant know how to "eat" light by using quantum effects at classical scale?
perhaps then man know something about cables when he carefully listen to them?
Nobody knows.... And some here can be right and it is perhaps a placebo effect, but CLAIMING that it is proven that it is only that is not established yet....
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Hey maybe you can start a business curing people with cancer using their mind. Can make a lot of money. Win a Nobel Prize too. Sarcasm is a sign of intelligence not a proof that there is really one intelligence working... Sorry... I can use sarcasm too... My suggested videos or articles are all facts.... Perception is a complex multidimensional phenomenon not a unidimensional tool... Quit your religion and think.... |
it seems that instead of derailing a thread between 2 insulting sides i give some food to the thought...
Perhaps the listening of these audible differences is a placebo caused by the complex way the perceptive paths is constituted...
Perhaps human hearing access to some information a frequencies meter could not...
I dont know and nobody here know in a scientifically proven way....
The subject is interesting anyway if we spare insults and think about in all possible ways....
For the cables sellers : i dont buy costly cables because in audio, vibrations controls, decreasing the electrical noise floor and especially acoustic controls , matter way more than buying costly cables...
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mahgister-
Here is an article illustrating why music is not reducible to acoustic for those who dont know....
https://maplelab.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Schutz-09-The-Mind-of-the-Listener-Acoustics-Perception-and-the-Musical-Experience.pdf This one article explains why some people like the sound of speakers they like the looks of and critique the sound of better sounding speakers they don't like the looks of so much. Human beings are not microphones and cameras attached to micro-processors. We are way better than that. We are human beings. The skilled professional Marimba player knows his gesture prolongs the note because his audience sees it and perceives that it prolongs the note- whether it does so when measured by microphone or not! |
My point here was to give an example of the way we CREATE perception not only passively receive information...In this context cables direction could be a placebo effect.... Why not?
My other point in this thread is that our senses access information about reality in a way an unidimensional tool could not... This is the reason why we cannot treated all people testimonies and rejecting them with the back of the hand....
My main point is CORRELATION between human perception and measures are science.... BUT REDUCING human perception to only what is measured in all cases and in all times is ideology not science... A methodological attitude when experimenting using some tools with human perception cannot be a definition of human perception in itself.... |
yesiamjohn3 posts05-22-2021 5:29amDjones51, you are going about this all wrong. Things like this used to bother me, but I found it is better to let audiophiles have their cable delusions. The more the better. The more they spend on cables the less money they have to spend on the things that matter to sound. That means less competition for us to purchase those items. The more they spend on things that don’t matter the less we need to spend on that do.
Let them twist science with their rather interesting views, let them insult engineers. It tells much about them and they hurt themselves more than anyone else. They make fun of other websites meanwhile the likes of Toole and Pass, and many actual audio experts will post at those sites, not here. People who have moved the science sound forward are not here are they? I did see Ted Denney started to post here though. See what I mean?
Bravo. Well stated. |
Perhaps audiophile have their cables delusion....And certainly it is if we look at price....
But i have observed that some so called scientists here have their own delusions about what is real and what is not....
Reducing human perception to engineering software is not science, it could be technology, but science is not an ontological faith in "matter" nor a quest for technological power.... |
I love the term "science sound". So funny how words like science, engineers, measurements, test equipment, etc simply appeal to certain people. Comforting like an old soft blanket. Perhaps reassuring in that it encourages them often to spend less. I have been listening seriously for over 3 decades and I just dont see the point in questioning what I hear. I still am working on differentiating different from better which is an exercise which is fun but taxing.
The thing that I find so interesting is the notion that certain people hear better than others seems anathema to some. Some on this site seem completely unable to accept the fact that their hearing may be inferior. Certainly one of the first things I would consider if someone claimed to hear something that I didnt. As if differences in the acuity of senses went against some evolutionary absolute.
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As if differences in the acuity of senses went against some evolutionary absolute. I think it is not so much a greater "acuity" but sometimes a greater experience and knowledge based perceptive history.... What some called a "bias" in a sarcastic way without knowing that certain " bias" are learned the hard way... Ask any Maestro.... For sure i hated marketing publicity about cables and false claims about "quantum effect" for example...Not because they are impossible but because nothing of this marketing ploys are proved at all.... But when it is said, this is not a reason to twist science the other way and claim that all there is to audible experience could be measured.... Sheeps take a side, i am not one..... |
It’s easy for me to understand that cables CAN sound different one direction vs the other. It’s also appear that bothers other people.
My question is WHY? Why would it bother an individual if someone found a cable performed different one direction than the other.
A lot of the repairs I use to do on equipment were because "it didn’t matter", "I’ve never heard that before", "I never had to do that before"?
"no I didn’t read the instruction manual".
OR WORSE I did read the manual and that wasn’t in there. The it "It didn’t say not to", crowd.
The reality, is simple, to each his/her own. No need to argue when the whole point of the thread is to invoke one way of thinking. ANY middle of the road, normal person wouldn’t argue for someone else only themselves. There is no Sir Galahad here.
Starting a thread just to argue "YOU’RE WRONG" "I’m Right"!
What’s the point? I’m right, You’re wrong?! There is ZERO information in the thread proving there is "NO directionality". As I said and as a mechanic there are reasons to listen before soldering.
Because we can’t measure the EXACT differences we hear, IT (the change) doesn’t exist?
James B of Ampzilla built some of the finest amps around using a "LOOK at the wire" before solder approach. The difference in a piece of equipment voiced that way makes all the difference in the world in the way it sounds.
TO MOST that have ever heard an amp built that way vs not, it is not a subtle difference. The type of construct, the size, and LENGTH of wire runs makes a difference, but attention to detail like HOW the wire was pulled off working spools of wire in a build room... Mechanically joining all the solder point BEFORE soldering...
A lot of the GREAT builders don’t tell the public, How they get "THEIR" house sound. BUT they sure charge for it..
As for the "prove it to me" crowd, when YOU pay for it it’s all yours, when I pay for it it’s all mine.. Do what you want with your stuff. I’ll do what I want with mine..
I just started conditioning 13 cables on Cable Cooker 2.5, after I checked the draw of the cable. 4 were backward according to how they were put through the dyes.. I reversed the arrows and will cooked all of them for 14 days. NONE were pre conditioned or soldered. 13 cables 625.00 usd. I trust NO ONES WORK... Only my Cardiologist.
How you prepare a cable for maintenance, makes a BIG difference too..
Plug an DROP, may work, but just like direction, paying attention to detail nets some great results for many an audiophiler.
Regards |
Very good post...
My deepest regards.... |
Master M how things going for ya?..
All well I hope...
Regards |
Ya see edgewound and djones51. Their arguments totally support your position and they don't even realize it. You can't argue with that. They can't admit they are wrong if they lack the ability to understand it.
Now we have someone who says they can understand why cables could be directional. You know they won't be able to clearly say exactly why. And they will have the "tell" of someone who does not understand. Let's see what they can come up with. Don't fight it. Just enjoy the ride.
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yesiamjohn,
Since you're "new" here... Do you actually believe everyone who hears a difference in cables is delusional, or does that just pertain (in your opinion) to those who can hear a difference in wire directionality? |
