So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
ted_denney21 posts05-24-2021 9:07pmIt’s easy to hear, conductors in a cable have a directional effect on the sound. In fact you’d either have to be deaf, have a horribly set up stereo, or an insurmountable expectation bias not to hear the difference.
Ted Denney Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.
Leave it to Ted to come up with a response that prebiases any expectation bias response.
Explain how and why the cable is directional, how the energy propagates through the conductor, and do you listen to each strand of conductor in each multiconductor cable assembly to determine which direction the cable should be oriented? and...What are the electrical parameters of these analog filters that you create?
andy21,333 posts05-24-2021 4:48pmIf you hear a difference but your measurement instruments are saying no difference, then there is something wrong with the way you measure.
You don't go to your doctor to have your ears checked. That would be a bit odd. I don't know of anyone who would come to this conclusion.
Just curious...What does a doctor know about hearing?
I don't know of anyone who would come to the conclusion that a doctor would not check one's hearing?
It’s easy to hear, conductors in a cable have a directional effect on the sound. In fact you’d either have to be deaf, have a horribly set up stereo, or an insurmountable expectation bias not to hear the difference.
Ted Denney Lead Designer, Synergistic Research Inc.
Yeah those active ATC ones are tres nice ain’t they.....really surprised how much better they were than their non-active kin, which until I heard the active ones thought they were pretty good...
Might have been Geithain speakers. Everything I've read about them they are incredible speakers, cartoid down into the bass. You don't hear much about them outside of Europe. I believe they sell direct in the US but you get no support.
Years ago at CES I hear an active German speaker 4 way with early class D probably ICE modules that sounded much better than it should have and so much better I would guess than it would have if this design was passive. I also always favored the active ATC speakers and never liked their passive designs. These experiences have stayed with me many years later and have served as a model of the viability of active speakers.
The benefit of active monitors like these Genelecs is internally triamped and amps matched to drivers. I’m not a fan of active subs in theory because of heat and vibration shorten amp life.
Read up on the Genelec stuff and it is all active powered by Class D. I have found the only use for Class D, from listening, is as a woofer amp. I also notice a metal dome tweeter also something that traditionally I dont like. But, you never know. I actually like the idea of active speakers provided they use very good amplification. Certainly not much cheaper than the high end audio stuff even with internal amplification.
edgewound"I'm clueless on why people can be so gullible when it comes to audio and signal flow."
Yes it could be that people are gullible and unable to comprehend the basic, fundamental operative variables that influence audio and signal flow. They do not know how to listen, what to listen for, or how to avoid being deluded, insane and so porfoundly ignorant as to border on stupid. Yes that is "possible!!"
It is also possible that you are nothing but a troll but reading you're posts I think that you are really just consumed with you're own self, impressed with your knowledge, wisdom, powers of analysis, acute perception, infallible logic, penetrating powerful intellect, piercing comprehension and an unfailing, unlfinching, unbending urge to impress others so that they'll be as impressed with you as you are with yourself.
It’s easy for me to change my view all it takes is evidence.
The problem you dont seems aware at all and the vicious circle where you put yourself in, like someone painting himself in a corner, is that the first and last evidence in audio are AUDIBLE experience WITH your ears.... Measures process and written evidence with numbers are in between....
Think few seconds to understand why this is so.... If you cannot you are out of any help....
Yep...I’m clueless on why people can be so gullible when it comes to audio and signal flow.
Save for some "snake oil" products on the market the other ignorant marketing ploy is reducing audio experience to pure new upgrading electronical design who measure better fort sure.... 😁
ACOUSTIC is the fundamental fact my dear.... NOT the signals....
Any relatively good gear can convey signals in a relative acceptable way... It is easy to buy some "good" gear able to convey "signals" relatively well....
But the misinformation of most audiophiles and "objectivists" heads ESPECIALLY is about the ignorance of the huge importance of acoustic and ESPECIALLY about psychoacoustic ... The "measuring better new highly priced design" is a DECEPTION of his own also and insisting on it, instead of pointing to acoustic importance, is an half truth worst than a lie........And reducing audio qualities to measures participate of this MARKETING general delusion...
Eat your signals....
My 500 bucks system convey very well the signals....
By the way each of my ear listen not to "signals" BUT to the first wavefront coming from my controlled room and my ears/brain recreate all aspects of sound experience with the 2 different message of my ears....All my room is a distributed set of pressure zones marked out for making easier the brain job....
I trust my ears not your "measured signals"...
If you have study electronic engineering now begin to study psychoacoustic....But beware acoustian USE their ears...You will be obliged to change your tune and stop insulting people....
The streamer met the requirements I was looking for. I could have assembled a cheaper alternative but I didn't want to bother with getting the AES3 board from France which is the only place I could find one. I listened to 5 different streamers I could tell no difference in sound so I bought the one I liked. It was a subjective decision.
I admit I never tried reversing the ethernet cable or AES3 cables. Perhaps that would have clinched the deal for a more expensive streamer.
So telling of a particular thought process that apparently is hard to shake.
It's easy for me to change my view all it takes is evidence.
I agree, edgewound is either completely clueless or he is simply stirring the pot. It indicates to me a complete lack of understanding regarding the fundamentals of sound and the more sublime aspects of reproduction. Pearls before swine.
I think it will be hard for djones to come back from "met the requirements". So telling of a particular thought process that apparently is hard to shake.
The target audience is audio Professionals. Higher ground than audiophiles. Audio Professionals trickle down to audiophiles.
Hmmm....really hate to put it this way but simply put that right there is pretty well proof positive you really don’t have a clue...
And for the record, I’ve played in both the audiophile and "Professional" sandboxes for several decades.
And also for the record, Genelec does make some very good speakers ( btw, that being said, they are not like a lot of the other folks in that field....even though they most likely all "met the requirements"...).
Well, all the electrons I have ever interviewed told me that SOME electrons like to drink a bit, and may get confused and actually go the WRONG WAY down a wire, but once they sober up, all is well again.
thyname1,275 posts05-23-2021 6:32pmI can assure everyone here edgewound is NOT Dletch2, Audio2Design, Atdavid, Dannad, etc. or any of the reiterates of that entity. That one was way smarter, and knew a thing or two, despite the sick tendencies of what he used that knowledge for. This Edgewood guy is just a wannabe copycat.
I copy no one’s behavior. I’d especially not wannabe like you, bub. Alan Parson's wrote a song about it.
I can assure everyone here edgewound is NOT Dletch2, Audio2Design, Atdavid, Dannad, etc. or any of the reiterates of that entity. That one was way smarter, and knew a thing or two, despite the sick tendencies of what he used that knowledge for. This Edgewood guy is just a wannabe copycat
I don’t know him, nor do I know anyone else posting here. The only member that has ever PMed me is GeoffKait, and it seems he’s been suspended. Interesting character. He seems drawn to me for some reason, that I’d rather not try to analyze.
Nonoise, Yes, the username list was copied from another thread.
Edgewhatever, I'm not sure of the correlation between what you copied & myself being blindfolded. If you are asking if I hear a difference in cables, that is affirmative & something I proved to myself about 30 years ago in a system that is much less resolving than my current one. What happen to your friend BTW?
It was a rhetorical question. I knew what were you going to say. I always know what you fair folks would say before I even ask a question. Very predictable gents.
It’s like the third lieutenant in command with the audio militia over at the audio super reinforcement forums with a Mola Mola Tambaquie DAC he owns vs. a Topping DAC. He paid all this extra money (huge difference in price between the two) just for the looks apparently, because they measure the same and therefore sound the same
A LUMIN U1!! Wow! Big advancements on the streaming front. I am shocked! What made you change your mind from “streaming from a laptop, or Chromecast Audio is just as good”? And zeroes and ones for streaming is all there is to it?
djones514,034 posts05-23-2021 2:49pmFor some reason you want to know my system. I don't see the relevance but it's strictly digital. Lumin U1 mini streamer, 2 Genelec 7350 subwoofers and 2 Genelec 8351b monitors GLM calibration. Various room treatments. Pro mogami AES3 cables. This is now I've had more gear than worth mentioning, including vinyl and tubes. What I've learned is respect the measurements, engineering, source media and reputation of the manufacturers and they'll get you better sound than playing with worthless tweaks and lousy measuring speakers which is about 85% of your listening experience anyway along with the room.
You do realize those Genelecs are simply to sterile, clinical and lifeless to do you any good. You must replace your Mogami interconnects with something north of $20 grand to darken...blacken, if you will... the background palette, eliminate the noise floor to a bottomless quantum tunnel, and soften the edges of those godawful tweeters. Probably Quantum Tunneled power cables and fuses will add to your enjoyment from such a rudimentary, beginner, entry level system.😉😂
For some reason you want to know my system. I don't see the relevance but it's strictly digital. Lumin U1 mini streamer, 2 Genelec 7350 subwoofers and 2 Genelec 8351b monitors GLM calibration. Various room treatments. Pro mogami AES3 cables. This is now I've had more gear than worth mentioning, including vinyl and tubes. What I've learned is respect the measurements, engineering, source media and reputation of the manufacturers and they'll get you better sound than playing with worthless tweaks and lousy measuring speakers which is about 85% of your listening experience anyway along with the room.
audition__audio844 posts05-23-2021 8:48amWell I knew this would be the response. The directionality of wire is not really what is important in this discussion.
Actually...It IS important to the discussion, because many manufacturers claim they "listen" to the wire to determine its directionality, therefore the cable has much better resolution, noise floor,"blacker background"... These claims can actually be backed up by measurement of the frequency response, resitance, capacitance, and inductance. Feelings can't be measured or quantified other than a very high price point....must be better because they said so.
I really dont care, but the idea that someone who diminishes the personal experience as paramount in this hobby and is talking about a universal reality is very concerning. Because you are so quick to dismiss indicates to me that you are in no position to mentor anyone. The fact that you close your mind to other possibilities automatically disqualifies you as an objective source of information. You would portray your opinions as facts and quote some propeller head and to add credence.
Ahhh...But you do care, otherwise you wouldn't be participating in this thread. It's your desire to "mentor"...Really? Are you this shallow to think you are a mentor to some young audio enthusiast that might go astray by FOMO from not going down the Rabbit Hole of spending thousands of dollars on cable that make magical claims, when their money is FAR better spent on amps and speakers that play well together. The magic starts in the quality of the recording, gets amplified and turned into air moving soundwaves by the speakers. Thousands of dollars of "audiophile" cables are not going to outperform "broadcast quality. If you get a thrill out spending car level money on cables, that's your prerogative. But "mentoring" someone to practice that is simply an attempt to justify a business model built on lies and fantasy.
Again lets compare experience and systems. Or do you believe that all systems are equally resolving? The fact that you are digital only is very telling as is my preference for vinyl.
Of course not all systems are equally resolving. It's a statement like this that reveals that your mind is closed to anyone that disputes what you believe in, and simply will not tolerate any discussion of why. Your mind is made up. Refusal to participate in blind listening tests, measurements of electrical properties, etc., is akin to believing that bloodletting is a good medical practice.
As far as vinyl vs. digital goes, each has a reason for it's preference. I simply like to hear excellent recordings. Vinyl can do that, along with the romance of ritual with an LP record and accompanying packaging. From a purely technical standpoint, modern digital done right far surpasses that of a vinyl record. Ask Bob Clearmountain and Bob Ludwig.
That said....it's not at all surprising that you folks throw tantrums and insults when not agreed with in lockstep. You get what you give.
There is only one reality from which we come from and through which we go interacting with other "realities", it is our own Body/ears//brain/consciousness.... No other one....
You mentioned "facing reality"! Which reality? To which objective and universal realities do you subscribe?
You mention learning from experience. I think this is especially funny coming from you. I would bet the farm on the fact that you have significantly less experience comparing and listening to the things you discuss on this forum than most of the subjectivists. What else can I expect from anyone that would buy a speaker on measurements alone.
Again discuss how long you have been listening and give me a peek at your system.
You just dont understand and absent this understanding I dont think you will allow yourself any more joy than you have already experienced because you are convinced you cant trust YOUR senses. Problem is that you are telling us that we cant trust ours either. I know misery loves company but give us a break!
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