So you think wire conductors in cables are directional? Think again...
Here is a very relevant discussion among physicists about the directionality...the way signal and electrons should flow... based on conductor orientation. Some esoteric, high-end manufacturers say they listen to each conductor to see which way the signal should flow for the best audio quality.
Read this discussion. Will it make you rethink what you’re being told and sold?
In the red corner, we have the amateur objectivists, who have brought their top high school level physics game, and a small but loud group of supporters.
It the blue corner, we have the professional subjectivists, supported by a loud rancorous crowd. They have also brought their top level high school physics game, but have been working extra hard on their irrelevance game.
The bell will ring in 30 seconds. We expect lots of action, lots of slapping, but few blows being landed in this seemingly never ending fight. There appears to be a lack of interest in knowing what is going on in either side, so this is likely to go the full 15 rounds.
Get your popcorn ready, it is going to be entertaining.
In the red corner, we have the amateur objectivists, who have brought their top high school level physics game, and a small but loud group of supporters.
For sure being objectivist or subjectivist made no sense...Save for children playing in a schoolyard...
Science is not so narrowingly minded.... Me too.... Open working minds are trustful and skeptic at the same time.... Being one or the other has no appeal....
andy21,294 posts05-13-2021 8:47pmNot sure why but Audioquest has a lot of hates from the "objectivist" bunch. Their dBS has generated a lot of ridicules.
It’s funny to see these frequency response and distortion measurement.
Thank you for posting the videos in support of expensive cables performing better. Actually...they don’t... AudioQuest was actually worse at the expense of $2,400.00.
Game, set, match. The argument for better performance is nothing more than lies.
The single most important piece of information on the right side of the calculator is the net power loss in the cable. This is a measure of how much of the amplifier power is dissipated in the cable, before it ever gets to the loudspeaker. The lower the power loss, the more power actually goes into making sound. For an 8-ohm loudspeaker connected to 40 feet of 18-gauge zip cord, the power loss is about ½ dB, which is neither audible nor significant, especially for an amplifier with high power output. So, from the standpoint of power transmission, 18-gauge wire is suitable for many home applications. But for longer cable runs, the losses can be greater and you should consider changing to a larger diameter cable.
Another result to note is that, for many cables, the roll-off frequency is well above 20 kHz, the upper limit of the audible frequency range. If the roll-off frequency is below 80 kHz, you might consider changing your cable to a larger diameter."
The signal does not flow in the wire. The signal energy flows through the space between the wires in the form of an electromagnetic wave.
The signal energy does not travel back and forth as it moves at near the speed of light (in a vacuum) from the source to the load. The signal energy electromagnetic wave moves in one direction from the source to the load.
Here is some reading material for you.
"
The quick answer
Inside the wires, the "something" moves very, very slowly, almost as slowly as the minute hand on a clock. Electric current is like slowly flowing water inside a hose. Very slow, so perhaps a flow of syrup. Even maple syrup moves too fast, so that's not a good analogy. Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don't move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate. Energy can only flow rapidly in an electric circuit because metals are already filled with this "putty." If we push on one end of a column of putty, the far end moves almost instantly. Energy flows fast, yet an electric current is a very slow flow.
The complicated answer
Within all metals there is a substance which can move. This stuff has several different names: the Sea of Charge, or the Electron Sea, or the Electron Gas, or "charge." We often call it "electricity," and state that electric currents are flows of electricity. Calling it "electricity" can be misleading because many people believe that electricity is a form of energy, yet charge is not energy, and currents are not flows of energy. Also it can be misleading because the Sea of Charge exists within in all metal objects, all the time, even when the metal hasn't been made into a wire and is not part of an electric device. If the Electron Sea is "electricity," then we must say that all metals are always full of electricity, and that batteries are simply electricity-pumps. Better to call it by the name "charge-sea," and avoid the misleading word "electricity" entirely.
During an electric current, the metal wire stays still and the sea of charge flows along through it. When the flashlight switch is turned off and the lightbulb goes dark, the charge-sea stops moving forward. Even though it stops moving, the charge-sea is still inside of that wire. If the flashlight is again turned on, but then two light bulbs are connected in parallel instead of one, the electric current will have twice as large a value, and twice as much light will be created. And most important, the charge-sea within the battery's wires will flow twice as fast. In other words, the speed of the charges is proportional to the value of electric current; small current means slow charge-flow, large current means high speed. Zero current means the charges have stopped in place. Note however that an electric current does not have just one speed within any circuit. Charges speed up whenever they flow into a thinner wire. The high current in a large flash-lantern's lightbulb will be much faster than the same current in the other conductors in the lantern. Even though an electric current is a very slow flow of charges, we can't know the actual speed of flow unless first we know the thickness of the wires, as well as the *value* (the amperes) of the current in the wires.
If a thin wire is connected in a circuit end to end with a thick wire, it turns out that the charges in the thin wire move faster. This makes sense: it works just like water in rivers. If a huge wide river moves into a narrow channel, the water speeds up. When the channel opens out again downstream, the river slows down again. The electric current inside a very thin wire will be tend to be fast, even if the value of current is fairly low. This means that we can't know the speed of the flowing charge-sea unless we know how thick the wires are.
If a copper wire is connected into a series circuit with an aluminum wire of the same diameter, the charges in the copper will flow slower. This occurs because there is one movable charge per each atom in the metals, but there are more atoms packed into the copper than into the aluminum, so there is more charge in each bit of copper. When the charge-sea flows into the copper, it gets packed together and slows down. When it flows out into the aluminum, it spreads out a bit and speeds up. This means that we cannot know how fast the charges flow unless we know how dense the charge-sea is within the metal.
The speed of electric currentSince nothing visibly moves when the charge-sea flows, we cannot measure the speed of its flow by eye. Instead we do it by making some assumptions and doing a calculation. Let's say we have an electric current in normal lamp-cord connected to bright light bulb. The electric current works out to be a flow of approximatly 3 inches per hour. Very slow!
...and that's for DC."
You really should read your own posts before trying to make a point. AC current doesn't flow...it wiggles or vibrates back and for according to your source. Your post from the physics explanation of energy flowing in waves would also negate the need for an expensive wire, since it's not actually travelling through through the wire. More proof from physicists that expensive cables are a scam.
andy21,295 posts05-14-2021 4:28pmIf Feynman couldn't explain it, what hopes are there for you guys to be able to explain it.
Which brings us to the point of what? That high-end cable manufacturers can't possibly explain it, either? But...AudioScienceReview.com proved that measurements from 10Hz-200Khz are virtually non-existent from a cheap cable to an expensive cable...and the expensive cable actually ADDED noise from it's antenna effect. Not a good outcome for $2,400.00. But....that's just my subjective opinion.
In the red corner, we have the amateur objectivists, who have brought their top high school level physics game, and a small but loud group of supporters.
It the blue corner, we have the professional subjectivists, supported by a loud rancorous crowd. They have also brought their top level high school physics game, but have been working extra hard on their irrelevance game.
The bell will ring in 30 seconds. We expect lots of action, lots of slapping, but few blows being landed in this seemingly never ending fight. There appears to be a lack of interest in knowing what is going on in either side, so this is likely to go the full 15 rounds.
Get your popcorn ready, it is going to be entertaining.
You must be new around these parts. What you're describing, as if for the first time, has been going on for way too many years. Nothing about any of these discussions is new- just the latest crop of objectivists raising old arguments.
" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."
Taken directly from one of your cited sources.
And this... "
Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow."
From your cited source here... Electric energy can even flow in a direction opposite to that of the electric current. In a single wire, electric energy can move continuously forward while the direction of the electric current is slowly backwards. In AC circuits the energy flows continuously forward while the charges are alternating back and forth at high frequency. The charges wiggle, while the energy flows forward; electric current is not energy flow.
"You must be new around these parts. What you're describing, as if for the first time, has been going on for way too many years. Nothing about any of these discussions is new- just the latest crop of objectivists raising old arguments."
I am very much not new to audio. This is not an objectivist/subjectivist thing. I was very much make fun of both. Anyone who uses those terms in a serious manner is not an audiophile, but they want everyone else to think they are. This had been going on a long time. It will stop for the most part eventually. The hanger ons keep getting older and older.
BTW...nothing you have posted has proven or justified the ridiculous prices of these "high-end" cables that can prove nothing. As a matter of fact, your physics posts have proven otherwise, that the conductor doesn't even matter.
I am very much not new to audio. This is not an objectivist/subjectivist thing. I was very much make fun of both. Anyone who uses those terms in a serious manner is not an audiophile, but they want everyone else to think they are. This had been going on a long time. It will stop for the most part eventually. The hanger ons keep getting older and older.
Maybe it's the format. I dunno. I never said, nor implied, you were new to audio, just to this site (unless you're another reincarnation). If you think we're all gonna die off and leave you king of the hill, well thanks for that humor, again.
That's a really insightful thought. Since childhood, I thought conductors are directional but now I am having a second thought. For wires and cables for quality audio transmission, do check out: https://gadglobal.co.in/
Yes I believe the type of wire makes a difference because they have different levels of resistance and capacitance which is measurable. How come the manufacturer like Belden doesn’t say that their cable needs to be oriented in a specific direction? Are they dumb?
Belden isn’t a person. It’s a company. It may be company policy to not mention cable directionality but the people who work there may think otherwise.
Case in point: my speaker cables were made by a former Belden engineer who worked there for over 20 years. He labeled his cables as directional and said so with the paperwork that came with them.
Maybe he felt the other guys couldn’t hear what he was hearing. Kind of like, here.
And the subjectivists have now brought in their quotable expert (that’s what the links claim at least but can we trust anyone that claims transmission lines at audible frequencies?). How will the objectivists answer? Will this get bloody?
Who really cares? You're not here for the listening pleasure, you're here for a pie fight.
This had been going on a long time. It will stop for the most part eventually. The hanger ons keep getting older and older.
It's just winning by attrition by your own words so you and your "team" can claim victory on just another audio site. Then it's crusade, over. You need to stop obsessing like this is a life or death struggle, unless it gives your life some sort of meaning. Love to see you act like this at some audio show and laugh at the reaction you'd get. There'd be no time to enjoy the popcorn.
Still hard for me to believe anyone thinks wire direction makes a difference, much less an audible one. Sounds like audio gaslighting. If you can prove it somehow, get new wire. Nobody wants wire acting as a semiconductor. Makes carrying AC rather difficult.
The popcorn is excellent. I have my own machine in the audio and theater room. You take yourself too seriously. People outside this hobby would look at this thread and wonder what is wrong with the people. There are two or three threads about why no young audiophiles and few female audiophiles. This thread is a clear answer to that question.
Lols. You looked up my quote and got the one from Sartre.
You couldn’t find it because it came directly from me. That’s why google couldn’t find it either Looks who still busy growing up. See that’s then intention of the quote.
Here’s another one for you. "You throw a rock over the fence. The dog that barks first is the one got hit."
I would suggest leaving the quotes to others. It is not your forte. Sartre’s quote has valuable meaning. Your’s not so much. Sartre’s is about doers and non doers. It’s about people who gets things done. Yours pretty much advocates conformity whether you intended or not. In the world, it’s the people who rock the boat that make change happen. They are willing to stand out. If you are competent that is not a fault and often essential to generate change. It takes confidence and courage.
No one outside this thread looks at it like your kind do. You prod, stick and stir and sit back and pretend to be a neutral observer.
If this is the latest version of who I think you are, your attempts at disguising yourself by taking a different tack are starting to show.
As for the reluctance on the part of others, including women, to chime in, it's not because of us. They stay clear because of you and the way you infest a conversation.
Do you really see yourself as "getting things done, making change happen, rocking that boat, and willing to stand out"? How brave and righteous of you. The way you describe yourself borders on delusional. Where's my Boy Scout badge?
Too bad these conversations usually end up going sideways.
The threads get longer and longer, and useful information more and more tedious to eek out.
Question. Once someone goes through a rebirth/reincarnation here on AGon, what age are they when they come back? Asking because the rebirthers seem to me a little bit dumber every cycle? Or perhaps this is because they are having to change their voice and writing style? Perhaps this is what is clouding the so-called message? Kind of like a little child pretending to be someone else on a phone call. They never make sense because the bulk of their thinking abilities are being allocated to sounding different.
" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."
Hi Edgewound Seems like nonsense to me. Suggest you buy a mile of cable. Connect one end to the mains. Connect other end to your hand. Eat your lunch while you wait for the river of warm putty to reach your hand. Reconsider your opinion. Ho hum.
Design the system to avoid analog cables entirely... Streamer (or any other digital sources) --- digital Coax---> DSP/DAC/Amp at the driver. Analog cables are only needed for analog sources. All this fervor for a phono cable - the things are so inherently noisy, it couldn't possibly matter. Cable and passive crossover discussions are mute, and should have been for decades - obsolete artifacts. Maybe you're arguing about technology your fathers and grandfather's used, or for changing speaker cone leads and re-wiring gear internals? From my perspective, go digital (1's and 0's aren't easily offended) all the way to each driver. Passive crossovers and analog cables are topics for the History Channel.
" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."
Had Edgewound read a little farther down the page he would have read this:
The size of the wiggle
And about AC... how far do the electrons move as they vibrate back and forth? Well, we know that a one-amp current in 1mm wire is moving at 8.4cm per hour, so in one second it moves:
8.4cm / 3600sec = .00233 cm/sec
And in 1/60 of a second it will travel back and forth by
= .00233cm/sec * (1/60) = .0000389cm or around .00002 in.
This simple calculation is for a square wave. For a sine wave we’d integrate the velocity to determine the width of electron travel.
So for a typical AC current in a typical lamp cord, the electrons don’t actually "flow," instead they vibrate back and forth by about a hundred-thousandth of an inch.
Some of these responses are hilarious. Reverse the coax cable on your DirecTV. Does the picture change? Keep living in your fantasy world...Physicists clearly don’t know anything....but you geniuses sure do.
Hello, I think it boils down to how resolving your system is. If you are using a $300 surround sound receiver pushing $10 speakers I doubt you will hear the difference. On the other hand if you had a six figure system I am sure you would hear the difference if your hearing is good enough. Not everyone who is an audiophile can hear subtle differences in music or cables. Sometimes I wish I could turn on and off that level of that sense. Another thought is some people putting equipment and cables on scanning equipment and eureka they have the perfect speaker or the perfect cable. Not! We know that their are some things science cannot explain. PS Audio tried to design a good sounding speaker and a phono preamp on a computer. It did not completely work. Bottom line is there are some systems that you can tell when a cable is reversed or when one power cable sounds good and another doesn’t- to you. Remember, it doesn’t sound good to you but someone else may really enjoy the sounds it produces. That’s why we have so many different companies who produce all of this stuff we love to listen to.
clearthinker360 posts05-16-2021 4:24am" Electric charges typically flow as slowly as a river of warm putty. And in AC circuits, the moving charges don’t move forward at all, instead they sit in one place and vibrate."
Hi Edgewound Seems like nonsense to me. Suggest you buy a mile of cable. Connect one end to the mains. Connect other end to your hand. Eat your lunch while you wait for the river of warm putty to reach your hand. Reconsider your opinion. Ho hum.
Hey @clearthinker....I didn't write this. But keep failing to actually pay attention. It's clear you're not understanding the concepts.
They think that human ears are inferior to measuring tools...They use the limits of their tools and project it on the human ears like if it was only an external material tool... They claim, blinded with their parameters coming from ONE dimension only that we cannot hear - 200 Db signal noise ratio for example... They are not even wrong...
They dont know that "music" dont exist in the world.... Only sounds...
It is consciousness creation called "art"...
What we hear in music and speech cannot be reduced to all measures...It can be correlated yes , reduced never...This is Science....This is the basis of good design...
But ultimately what is there to be measured, the "sounds" are TRANSFORMED by the act of hearing them in something, music or speech, which we can understand but cannot totally measured on all his dimensions simultaneously like the brain did it... We created also speech when speaking or music when playing an instrument, which convey the soul in an intricate way which cannot be understood WITHOUT a translation by the soul of the listener... There is nothing more to measure, the essential is not there to be measured but to be understood by the will and heart and not only the mind...Shannon information theory is not a poem, the equations live on a scale which is not the same scale of meaning than a poem....
One day some robot will say to me that he can think and some will believe it...
I will never believe it because to think we need to be connected to all the universe at once or to the source of meaning ....
And by mathematical definition an A. I. is a disconnected tools...Save for cultist and superstitious mind like transhumanism zealots whatever sophisticated they are....
Like migrating birds navigating earth, human body perceive with way more than the external limited tools in one dimension and limited parameters....The human body is itself an integrated measuring set of tools connected to many dimensions exceeding any of our normal external tools...
A lot of the so called "objectivists" believe in some of the so called "measurement websites". They measure some frequency responses, some basic distortions and make some wild claims that nobody cares to check.
It's funny how these "objectivists" are taken for a ride and they just blindly believe without even questioning about the validity of these so called "measurements". How funny as they are being duped.
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