One funny aspect of moving up the chain of 'better' best' 'new best' is:
by the time we get enough surplus money to afford better, best, new best, we are OLDER, our hearing, especially high frequencies, is beginning and progressively diminishing.
A great deal of the 'differences' is in the high frequencies.
Old Reviewer's Ears are ..... |
It's like religion, you cannot disprove it. SNAKE OIL is REAL
The term “snake oil” is used to describe any worthless pseudo-medical remedy promoted as a cure for various illnesses. By extension, snake oil salesmen are charlatans who sell such fraudulent goods. In 19th century America, snake oil was commonly promoted as a cure-all. It was supposedly produced by boiling rattlesnakes and skimming off the oil that rose to the surface. But although it was sometimes prepared in this way, hucksters found it cheaper and easier to substitute other oils. Sales of alleged rattlesnake oil continued into the 20th century. In 1915 the US government ordered the analysis of a well-known product, Clark Stanley’s Snake Oil Liniment. The analyst found that its main constituents were “a light mineral oil (petroleum product) mixed with about 1 per cent of fatty oil (probably beef fat), capsicum, and possibly a trace of camphor and turpentine”. Since the product contained no snake-derived oil, Stanley was taken to court and found guilty of misbranding and misrepresenting the product. He was fined $20 — the equivalent of about $430 (£280) today. Nevertheless, since Clark’s formulation was not unlike modern-day capsaicin-based liniments and chest rubs, it was probably of more use than genuine rattlesnake oil, which has not been shown to have any health benefits. But where did the belief in snake oil arise? It seems that early American immigrants may have adopted native American customs and also transposed to the rattlesnake an ancient British belief that preparations based on the adder can cure various ills. These notions would have been reinforced in the 1840s when many Chinese labourers arrived to help build the Transcontinental Railroad. They would almost certainly have brought with them oil from the Chinese water-snake (Laticauda semifasciata, black-banded sea krait), which in traditional Chinese medicine has been used for centuries as an anti-inflammatory agent to treat arthritis, bursitis and other joint pains. These labourers may have offered snake oil to fellow workers as relief for enduring long days of physical effort. Modern-day research suggests that Chinese water-snake oil may indeed have health benefits because of its high content of omega-3 fatty acids. In 1989 an analysis of snake oil bought in San Francisco’s Chinatown found that it contained 20 per cent eicosapentaenoic acid, which is more than is found in popular omega-3 food sources such as salmon. Omega-3 fatty acids have been shown to reduce inflammation and are alleged to offer many other health benefits. Although many of the claims made for them — often by the modern equivalent of the snake oil salesman — are unproven, it does appear that they may help in lowering systolic blood pressure, improving cognitive function, reducing the risk of dementia and relieving depression. A few years ago, researchers in Japan evaluated the effect of Chinese sea-snake oil on a number of outcomes in mice. They found that, compared with lard, snake oil significantly improved the rodents’ maze-learning ability and swimming endurance. So it seems that snake oil salesmen may not be such mountebanks after all, provided they sell the right sort of oil for the right indications.
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.......or maybe it was that the lard reduced the rodents maze-learning ability and swimming endurance and the snake oil did nothing at all. If you read the research on fish oil supplements you will learn that controlled trials involving thousands of test subjects over ten years have resulted in the finding that there is no clinical evidence that they result in any health benefit at all. But eating fresh fish does. The reasons for this are unclear but the facts seem to suggest that you can throw out your fish oil supplements and start eating a can of tuna fish or sardines three times a week or cook fresh fish at home and you will probably benefit healthwise. But look thru your cable channel guide and you’ll find Larry King is now a shill for Omega XL which purportedly cures everything from joint pain to heart disease.
"....there's a sucker born every minute..." P.T. Barnum |
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An updated passive network features premium grade AudioQuest® internal wiring.
"
Years ago when marketing was trying to come up with something to justify price increases they used Monster Cable. Didn't last long though. The big deal with the CW 4's are the new mid range horn and crossovers and front to back cabinet bracing. They are now remarkable speakers and the guy that designed them used zip cord for cables from his QSC Theater amp when we heard them in the Klipsch sound lab. That fancy wire inside is meant to appeal to certain individuals that think it means something. Fortunately the real improvements are quite significant and this is a fine speaker. When you jump the price up as much as this latest CW has done you need to add fluff where ever you can.
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I truly feel sorry for all whose ideas prevent them from empirical tests. I feel sorry for those who believe scientists know all there is to know about physical reality and about human hearing. I feel sorry for those who can't hear the difference between a recording and a digital file, which throws away 90% of the timing information we humans needs.
I feel sorry for all who thing one part of a system matters (the amp) and another (its power cord) does not.
Open your minds and listen! |
"Years ago when marketing was trying to come up with something to justify price increases they used Monster Cable. Didn't last long though. The big deal with the CW 4's are the new mid range horn and crossovers and front to back cabinet bracing. They are now remarkable speakers and the guy that designed them used zip cord for cables from his QSC Theater amp when we heard them in the Klipsch sound lab. That fancy wire inside is meant to appeal to certain individuals that think it means something. Fortunately the real improvements are quite significant and this is a fine speaker. When you jump the price up as much as this latest CW has done you need to add fluff where ever you can."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egkjScjWzMk
3:20 in the video. Frankly, you are in no position to speak for Klipsch. Your representations about Klipsch intentions or motivations are not verifiable. |
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Frankly, you are in no position to speak for Klipsch. Your
representations about Klipsch intentions or motivations are not
verifiable.
"
Lets look at things logically as I am sure that would appeal to you. Monster cables were high end back then but did not stay with Klipsch long. Would you care to say why?
The guy that designed the speakers did not use this fru fru stuff on playback in his sound lab. Would you care to say why?
True I am not a Klipsch spokesman but I know what I have seen with my own eyes and if fancy wiring was successful in Klipsch eyes would they have ever stopped it?
You all are getting pissy because a sacred idol is being impugned and can't come up with one bit of actual scientific evidence to bolster all the grandiose assertions made.
Cable cookers, directional wiring, $60,000 for 9' of wire per channel + the secret box with knobs on it and you all go for this stuff. I think I am out of here and let the strange huddle together in defense of each other.
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Sorry, dude, but Monster Cable were never high end. Maybe in your world. In fact Monster Cables were marketed to people just like you, a little gullible and superstitious. 😳
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The OP has the dubious honor of becoming the Peter Aczel of the 21st century. Why the obsession with other people’s money? This site used to be help and share, not trash and swear. God forbid those of us having FUN In this hobby.
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"Sorry, dude, but Monster Cable were never high end." Until I bought them and connected them between an Onkyo receiver and Mission 761i. They stayed high end for decades, even after those two were long gone. |
"Lets look at things logically as I am sure that would appeal to you. Monster cables were high end back then but did not stay with Klipsch long. Would you care to say why? ..."
I have no idea. Nor will I guess.
"... The guy that designed the speakers did not use this fru fru stuff on playback in his sound lab. Would you care to say why? ..."
Same answer as above
"...True I am not a Klipsch spokesman but I know what I have seen with my own eyes and if fancy wiring was successful in Klipsch eyes would they have ever stopped it? ..."
Klipsch didn't stop it. I posted a link to a Klipsch publication and a Klipsch video, both of which describe the use of "fancy wiring" in 2 of their current Heritage speakers. They may use it in more; I don't know.
" ...You all are getting pissy because a sacred idol is being impugned and can't come up with one bit of actual scientific evidence to bolster all the grandiose assertions made.... "
I can't speak for others, but if presenting facts about current Klipsch speakers is getting "pissy" then color me "pissy." Nor have I made any grandiose assertions.
" ... Cable cookers, directional wiring, $60,000 for 9' of wire per channel + the secret box with knobs on it and you all go for this stuff. I think I am out of here and let the strange huddle together in defense of each other. ..."
Again; I was making a point, with facts, about an incorrect, speculative post you made about Klipsch speakers. Nothing more.
As for cabling,
I have no interest in $60K speaker cables or secret boxes.
I have always sought value. I learn as much as I can about materials and construction. I learn as much as I can by seeking the experience of others on forums, in publications and via personal interaction. Then by trial. If I don't like the way they sound, I return or sell them.
As far as using zip cord, I think I was 17. It didn't take long to ditch it.
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That strikes me that the cable believers they are that because they have heard the difference.
The cable nay sayers have not heard the difference in cables.
Both are right but why?
I have been in countless of hi-fi shows there I have attended cable demonstrations. Of power cable and also another with speaker cables. (I did learn that there is apparently shielded speaker cables..)
So the prof is in the pudding. 🎵
But if we try to eat the pudding in an environment like under water in the ocean. We would all think that different puddings taste the same (salty water). But in air the taste difference is there clearly. And it is the same puddings that we tasted under water.
The same goes for the smaller impacts like amps, speakers, source and so on. But the bigger percentage impact is the environment like the acoustic properties of the room. That is ~≥50% of the sound! So it is not ONLY the brain and ear auditorium that differs on us all it is also we have different opinions on exactly the same gears.
But those that has had all the stars aligned with the right treated room, resolving gear, sonically divergent cables and so on. Has heard a difference in cables are cables believers. We hear like in this thread nay sayers going to believing in cables. But we seldom hear the other way around.
Yes, we (believers) have also heard no differences in many cases. But if that were the room, system, sonically same cables that were compared.. But I have also in fact put in in my system many years ago a pair of RCA cables that on paper should be okay with the right "bells and whistles". I was so disappointed that I took a scissor and destroyed them immediately so that nobody else/I should be using them by mistake in the future. (You know when you hook up a new peace of gear and you reach for RCA cables at hand.. I did not want to risk to take that pair!)
Why should manufacturer make A and B comparisons in high end shows for audiophiles. If there were no differences? Would they cheat and put the whole company at risk?
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Why is the worst threads seem to get the most posts lately?
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emailists
What is the best threads in your opinion?
Today it may be a new album, TT, DAC or speaker. It may vary what our interest are for the moment?
This topic is broad almost every item need a cable of some sort. And there is only a fraction that is interested in the TT of brand X and model y or they are into DACs instead..
No offense ment just thinking out loud.. :) |
glupson"Sorry, dude, but Monster Cable were never high end." Until I bought them and connected them between an Onkyo receiver and Mission 761i. They stayed high end for decades, even after those two were long gone. Report this>>>>>Everything’s topsy turvy, glubson. Me topsy, you turvy. |
geoffkait, "Me topsy, you turvy." For a moment, I thought you said "you topsy, me curvy". And there went my day... |
I would be interested to see the results of an blind experiment in which a variety of subjects, including some self-identified audiophiles, are presented with varieties of music played over the same equipment, in the same room, and the only variable is the cabling used to connect the equipment — from the cheap audio cables at the discount stores, to the somewhat more expensive cables available in garden-variety audio equipment stores (e.g., Best Buy) to the truly high-end and very expensive cables only available from select companies. Then have the subjects rate the quality of the sound they hear from various unknown cables and see if the ratings reflect the cost/reputation of the various cables. It would also interest me to know if the acclaimed professional listeners do appreciably better than the average person at detecting which music is played through less expensive cables versus most expensive cables.
Anyone care to do this research (I would find it interesting but I’m a novice on this topic and do not feel qualified) and get back to us?
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bob540,
Did you have to?
Well, it may be prudent to brace for impact.
You mentioned blind testing and cables. That is a war zone. Had you added fuses, the apocalipse would be on the horizon.
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Once, many years ago, a small batch of Golden Ear reviewers failed to tell the difference between a Pioneer receiver (god forbid) and several high price separates behind the curtain.
I designed Corporate Interiors in NYC for 46 years. I worked on 44th street, 1 block from Harvey's, Leonard, visited Sound by Singer (arse), .... went to NYC audio shows, stayed current
I used to help wealthy clients with their home systems. I came to focus on features, and ease of use, especially for busy executives (think fancy av systems in Conference Centers I designed).
They were drawn to pricey stuff. I realized, you have to like something every time you see/touch/use it. That is a part of the enjoyment, even before the needle drops.
Same thing with any part of the chain.
Open the curtain, which believer wants to turn on a Pioneer receiver?
Much of the allure of LP/TT is the difference you personally make getting it right. It moves on from there. |
The cat is out of the bag. Everybody and his brother knows reviewers can’t hear diddly squat and blind tests don’t mean anything. When you combine them you get squaddush. |
Bob,
Do your own research & get back with us (or not). Your test asks for the novice opinion, so you’re apparently qualified. |
bob540, how about you try some aftermarket IC, SC and power cords, and get back to us.
I already did what you suggest. See my article about the Audio by Van Alstine ABX Comparator at Dagogo.com
Now, it's your turn.
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@mahlman
For many here on Audiogon, we are just misguided and have far more money than sense it seems. With that said, why would you want to go and rain on our parade? LOL
Klipsch....is not my standard nor benchmark. It may be for many and that’s cool. I am only slightly more interested in the wire Klipsch uses than the wire that Bose chooses to use.
I would advise though that your anger and rage is not going to get better if you keep on doing what you’ve been doing, whatever that is. Peace. |
I want so much to agree with you. The good ones I’ve heard in my rig each have their own nuanced sound. My relatively limited (as compared to others here) experience is that a good cable can make sound come alive.
As for what sounds ‘real‘, you know it when you hear it. Certain cables will sound very real, but in a more ‘beautiful’ way. I know that sounds unscientific. Certain DACs can lend that same elusive quality too. I find that the cable which sounds more beautiful to me produces a large three-dimensional sound and has that presence in the lower end, a big blooming midrange, with sparkling but not overcooked highs. One the other hand, i have a cable that is exciting, and definitely a bit tilted in the high frequencies. It sounds a a db louder at similar volume settings and the initial impression is more definition and resolution, which is not the case. This cable to me doesn’t have the same degree of true resolution overall and it can’t render tonal beauty to the same degree.
So in a long winded way, I am sorry to say its not as easy as ‘all cables sound the same’. Take heart though, because you don’t have to spend a king’s ransom to get a great sounding interconnect and speaker cable, but you may have to save up the pocket money for several months 😬 |
"The cat is out of the bag. Everybody and his brother knows reviewers can’t hear diddly squat and blind tests don’t mean anything. When you combine them you get squaddush."
*L* Well, geoff, at least we get a nifty hip noun....
....which I won't use, either... ;) Thanks for nothing.... |
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On a completely unrelated note I have compared CD with 320 kbs AAC and after switching back and forth for a while I had to realize I couldn’t tell the difference. And my system is pretty good. Schiit Vidar amp, Maggie LRS speakers, Oppo 203 UDP. This was not what I wanted to hear. I wanted the CD to be better. But it just isn’t. Nor is high-rez (IMO). I compared a 24/192 bluray of Supertramps "Crime of the Century" with a CD of the same. Again, no difference. And again, not what I had hoped for. So I’ve got the feeling that for me to attempt to hear the difference between speaker wires would probably be a waste of time. My wires are rocketfish 16ga. "oxygen-free copper" (whatever that means) and they’re each six feet long so it seems to me (after all I’ve read about wires) that they probably do not influence the sound at all, but that’s just me. |
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@hombre, "On a completely unrelated note I have compared CD with 320 kbs AAC and after switching back and forth for a while I had to realize I couldn’t tell the difference. And my system is pretty good. Schiit Vidar amp, Maggie LRS speakers, Oppo 203 UDP. This was not what I wanted to hear. I wanted the CD to be better. But it just isn’t. Nor is high-rez (IMO). I compared a 24/192 bluray of Supertramps "Crime of the Century" with a CD of the same. Again, no difference. And again, not what I had hoped for. So I’ve got the feeling that for me to attempt to hear the difference between speaker wires would probably be a waste of time. My wires are rocketfish 16ga. "oxygen-free copper" (whatever that means) and they’re each six feet long so it seems to me (after all I’ve read about wires) that they probably do not influence the sound at all, but that’s just me."
Definitely not just you alone. As far as I'm aware no human ears have ever been able to reliably identify those 'differences' either.
I once compared the same recordings coming off my Sony NWZ something MP3 player with my Marantz CD6000 ki CD player.
I initially found it disturbing to discover that even with immediate switching from one to the other they sounded alike. It was a difficult feeling to describe, like a sudden and profound disappointment. I had wanted to hear that my MP3 player was reasonably close to my highly regarded CD player, but not that close!
Even now, years later it still slightly rankles that an MP3 player (playing the same 320 Kbps files) can sound identical to a CD player playing the original CDs!
I accept that everything between the recording and our ears does make a theoretical difference, but from day one I never got into this hobby for mere theoretical differences.
I mean like, what do you prefer, 679 grains of salt on your fries or is it 680?
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The only time in recent memory that I immediately heard a clear and distinct improvement in sq is when, about two months ago, I switched out my very highly regarded B&W wooden box speakers (with conventional dynamic woofers and tweeters) for a new pair of magnepan LRS speakers. Now THAT was worth the money!!! |
Reading many posts I realized the singularity of my experience and experiments... I lived trough a successive continuous strings of little improvements( appearing to me not so little each times I implemented them tough) without changing any electronic components nor speakers...
I discovered this way how to create improvements by modifications in the three embeddings : the mechanical embeddings, the acoustical field and the electrical grid...
This is for me the proof that most people dont have a clue about the way to improve except by buying new electronic components... I was exactly like that 7 years ago, but without money, I tought with homemade low cost solutions... My best to all...
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*L* I wonder which would be the 'levitation of choice'?
Obviously one would be more sound....(too easy of a pun, sorry...) or, having all the iron in one's bloodstream put you on a different plane of existence? (only slightly better...maybe....)
What would the latter do to all the lead in one's head?
Curious mind's just get more curious...if not outright vague...*L*
Good morning, BTW. *S* |
So has anyone changed their mind yet about cables? |
elrod....mho, I think the sun will rise in the west first....;)
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"So has anyone changed their mind yet about cables?" I have not changed my mind and I would not blink if I had to go back to the lamp cord I had used for many years, but just last week I did notice something. I swapped stock cables from two different sets of earphones. I do not know what the actual build difference is, except that one is less pliable than the other one which I suspect is due to thicker plastic "jacket". Well, I still believe I did hear the difference every time, which is five or six times in a row. I did it with both sets of earphones, too. Not blinded, not a large sample, no nothing, just a very primitive curiosity. It could have easily been my bias which, in case I had it, I am not sure which way it would lean and why. Much more importantly, as much as I think there was a difference, I am sure that the difference was just a difference and not anything "better". No jaw-dropping soundstage that opened to the next block, no deeper lows, no darker blacks, no musicians walking in the room. I used to live happily with my lamp cord and now I am perfectly fine with whatever stock cable came with these earphones. Life is too short to obsess over cables and to conduct real meaningful comparison tests. |
My favorite audiophoolery delusion is thinking that the great designers of the best electronics were too stupid to use a decent power cord, but that some internet marketer or commission salesman has just the right secret ingredient in his contraption.
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I don’t think they were stupid, they just didn’t know any better. They were too circuit hyper-focused. The same with fuses.
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Fremer didn’t go through with the Million Dollar challenge because The Amazing Randi got cold feet and it was Randi who blinked first.
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Randi apparently couldn’t demonstrate the financial means to carry out the challenge. Turns out he was very likely close to insolvency. |
Randi got the million from Johnny Carson when he died to go after spoon benders and dowsers. A quick search turns up Randi’s net worth at 1.5 Million. Most likely Randi got cold feet thinking, gee, I know the Challenge is rigged but maybe these crazy audiophiles really can hear the difference between $25,000 cables and bog standard cables. After all, Randi didn’t know anything whatsoever about audio. He just saw audiophiles as a rich source of entertainment and self promotion. Besides, he didn’t run the James Randi Educational Foundation and host retreats on his yacht in the Caribbean on just his looks. Of course Randi would say it was Fremer who got cold,feet. Duh!
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Now, I had recently seen a comment/claim/or? of one, inferring that they had 'liquid metal cables'....!?...*huh?*
The only 'room temp' metal I'm aware of....is mercury.
And, mercury isn't the sort of thing I'd want around the house in any quantity, being poisonous 'n all. Fun to slosh around in a jar, but...
Any knowledge or thoughts on this?
Curious minds....all that...;) |
So I'll give my own personal experience here and my opinion based on that.
Starting out in audio I was using an old NAD integrated and some well reviewed $100 Pioneer speakers. Switching from Monster copper to Transparent Audio entry level cables (~$2-300) made a huge difference. Volume was louder, the detail came into focus. Undeniably better. Someone listening from the other room could hear the difference. It was like i opened a valve and the amp didnt need to work as hard. So based on that experience I believe cables matter.
Later on, still using the Transparent cables, but with a much more expensive set up I replaced a Mogami interconnect (~$40) with a Nordost (~$300) connecting my DAC to my tube amp. More subtle but noticeable difference.
What does that teach me: like everything else in this hobby:
(1) Trust your ears. Mine tell me cables make a difference. Just because some egg head cant explain why, doesn't mean its not real.
2) Diminishing marginal returns - true in cables just like it is true in every other component. |
I hope I have the right Geoffkait here . Anyway I came across your blog completely by accident while reading Greta Thunberg’s idea for the world economies though I don’t agree with your own ideas of climate crisis action I did leave a comment on your blog and never got a reply.
Because your completely off the grid i want to tell you your approach is far too radical by quitting your career , going all out vegan and moving into a tree house , please reconsider don’t go away forever, I enjoy reading your comments here on Audiogon ...
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That’s weird. I don’t even have a blog. I’ve always wished there were more of me, though. 🤗
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geoffkait, "I enjoy reading your comments here on Audiogon ..." You made it! Even the longest journey starts with the first step. There truly is someone for everyone. I was already losing hope for you. |
I apologize Geoffkait , perhaps someone has taken over your identity. I just checked , your handle is identical to this dude , Oh well , anyway liked your reply 👍 |
asvjerry, Now, I had recently seen a comment/claim/or? of one, inferring that they had ’liquid metal cables’....!?...*huh?* I believe there are two contributors to audiogon who are closely involved with it so they may chime in. If not, search for Teo Audio cables on the Internet and you may find more information there. When it comes to metals and room temperature, maybe more practical question would be what is considered "liquid". Periodic table is full of metals (90, or so, if I remember correctly) and there may be a few that are not as liquidy as mercury, but are still not fully solid at room temperature. Especially if you apply different rules/definition than what all of us have learned once upon a time. I am not going to look it up now, but definition of "liquid" may be your answer. |
There is no reality, just our personal perceptions. It's kind of like The Matrix |
A block of platinum is mostly empty space. The same holds true for blockheads. |
