Snake oil of the year?

https://www.myhifishop.de/Devices/AQ-SWITCH-SE-Audiophile-High-End-Network-Switch-audio-LAN-isolat::87.html?language=en

The Fidelizer Etherstream network switch, which I have, definitely improves TV resolution-Its easy to see the difference .So it does "something" As far as audio is concerned I doubt if I could tell the difference.

I have the etherstream2. It is fantastic for audio. I would never go back to streaming Qobuz without it.

In  the Original Poster's defence - he had a point, the website is now down.  OFTEN, that means those who made it were just out to make what they could from a bad idea, then vanish with the bucks!

I've not heard or seen the thing, but the website being down could make his point - if it reappears you can all laugh at me instead!

Yours respectfully

Chris.

I'm in the engineers camp, 25 years in IT; there is nothing a fancy switch can do to change the packet to make it sound better than an inexpensive switch, as mentioned earlier in this thread. Anyone who uses Qobuz or Tidal, even Pandora, your data has traveled millions of miles and arrives intact and beautiful over plain old enterprise-class switches and routers. If the data was corrupted in the transmission, your receiving device will tell the sender so and ask for it again. Almost everything arrives for the first time in this age, hence the speed we now enjoy—streaming movies and music. I have a Kaleidescape server in my network closet that streams the most spectacular sound and video over the network. I run a Basic Dell Switch. Also, converting Ethernet to fiber and back to ethernet is pointless unless you have long runs, over 300’. In ethernet cables, the standards are based on the number of twists per inch and the RJ45 ends used; your CAT5, 6, 7, and 8 are all IEEE standards. If you have a bunch of old cheap patch cords, it can’t hurt to replace them with higher-spec cables, but it won’t change your arriving data. If your house has built-in Data ports (hard wired), depending on age, you might be saddled with CAT5 or (CAT3 10mps) wiring, which is designed for 100mbps, it doesn’t mean it can’t do faster, but you will start to get data drops and eventually fallback to 100mbps or 10mbps, and yet the audiophile signal arrives just the same.

Love the comments: 

Candid interview with Amir from Audiosciencereview | HiFiVision.com

Amir on youtube ( i think that's his name) is such a buzz kill just about everything. I hear what I hear and because Amir can pick up different cause and effect on his meters is not not the last and final word. For instance I know that cables matter, there might be a lot of over priced cables, they still can make a BIG difference.

LOL @dougthebiker, that was my setup on day #1 of my Audiophile journey, with much more space now and equipment upgrades, music is more enjoyable now.

Tough to judge by the picture of your system, but you might be several thousand dollars away from the ehternet switch being the weak link in the chain. 

And for free, you could improve your sound by experimenting with speaker placement in your room.  They are awfully close together and maybe above ear height.

Nice setup. 

@wsrrsw

You asked what switch I tried: English Electric 8 Switch .

In my direct experience(s) I don’t support

- any supposition that any network Ethernet switch(es) is/(are) room dependent,

- or otherwise dependent on any other non-digital / analog portion of one’s audio system.

Rather, it is directly the quality build of the digital streamer + DAC portions alone and not lofty priced Ethernet network switches for MY improved audio performance experience.

FWIW This is my system:

REGA OSIRIS integrated amp

REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/ DAC

BRYSTON BDP1-USB digital streamer/ server /

BRYSTON BDA2 DAC

HARBETH 30.2XD standmount speakers on TonTraeger speaker stands

PHILIPS 630 ( USA) tuner ( fully rebuilt and upgraded 2021)

bespoke custom high-end black walnut audio rack

All CARDAS CLEAR interconnects array

CARDAS CLEAR REFLECTION speaker cables

CARDAS CLEAR / CLEAR REFLECTION / GOLDEN REFERENCE power cables

i also have digital streaming capabilities in my “B” system ( ~ $5K with all ARCAM electronics / TRIANGLE bookshelf speakers / CHORD cables) . The network switch digital (non?)-experience was the same for me. Go figger.

Again, others may have different experiences…. Some drive Fords, some drive Chevys …carry on… no worries. Trust your ears- yay or nay …. Fine … But it’s entrenched beliefs on the manufacturers specs or mag reviews that includes marketing hyperbole influencing one’s purchase decisions that leaves me cold and unconvinced.

@akg_ca

What one did you try? What’s in your system please?

My takeaway is a lot of this stuff is system/room dependent.

I have no beef with those who can afford the best(what ever that is). If I was in that realm I’d have to get divorced to afford it and because of the divorce I’d be unable to affrod much at all. My darTZeels would be real gold too.

I suspect many on this forum are looking for the best they can afford and clearly a lot of knowledge here gets systems that sound better from the shared knowledge.

@wsrrsw

yep … tried one in my $50k system.

my take : bupkus….nada…. zippo…. = SFA difference in my digital audio performance compared to the simple quality build “vanilla” unit recommended and supplied by my pro IT tech. Pass on it.

NOW OPTION 2: …in stark contrast to the esoteric network switch swap-in / swap-out step above with its marketing techno+bafflegab hyperbole that makes non-IT tech types eyes glaze over…, ….yes … NOW there is a distinct audio digital audio performance improvement with a simple step up in the digital build quality in the new upgraded streamer and DAC ( e.g. my BRYSTON stablemates with discrete linear power supplies etc) …..

yep …. It’s all there now … no quarrel.

I read a lot of reviews and posts in the major audio forums, but I don’t necessarily blindly support their stated opinions , pro and con. I’ll still use my ears in MY system ( emphasis added ) as the ultimate litmus test . Others may have different experiences, no worries …. ,carry on!

it’s the overly aggressive types that cling to a notion of “IT  HAS to be the best” option that I tune out. There is no “best” in this hobby.

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each differently.”

― Robert Evans

@akg_ca

With respect. I went back and clicked on the links you provided. You selected (cherry picked) only one side supporting your beliefs that audiophile switches are hokum. Have you ever tried one? If so what? The repose below seems very even and way above my pay grade too.

Is there conformation bias when one gets their latest doodad? Sure.. However, there are far more positive comments from actual switch users than not. I'm not dousing my system with Flagyl to combat parasitic capacitance but I'm using an audiophile switch. Doctor's orders.

"almarg

9,670 posts

10-29-2019 at 06:14am

As someone having extensive experience in digital (and analog) design, although not for audio, it is very conceivable to me that a network switch can make a difference sonically. Not because it affects the accuracy with which 1s and 0s are received; not because it affects the timing with which those bits are received; and probably not because of most of the reasons that are likely to be offered in the marketing literature of makers of audiophile-oriented switches.

The likely reason relates to differences in waveform characteristics such as signal risetimes and falltimes (i.e., the amount of time it takes for the signal to transition from its lower voltage state to its higher voltage state and vice versa); differences in noise that may be riding on the signal; and differences in distortion of the waveform that may be present. In other words, things that affect the spectral composition of the waveform.

Those differences in waveform characteristics in turn may, IMO, affect the degree to which some of the RF energy present in the signal may bypass, i.e., may find its way around, the ethernet interface circuitry in the receiving component and affect circuitry that is further downstream. Perhaps affecting timing jitter at the point of D/A conversion, and perhaps affecting analog circuitry further downstream via effects such as intermodulation or AM demodulation.

One thing that became abundantly clear to me in my experience as an electrical engineer is that signals and noise don’t necessarily just affect or entirely follow only their intended pathway. And the waveform and noise characteristics of the signal that enters a circuit can affect the degree to which RF energy present in that signal may find its way via unintended pathways to unintended circuit points "downstream" of the intended circuit. "Unintended pathways" may include things like grounds within the receiving device, parasitic capacitances, power supply circuitry, or even radiation through the air within the component.

For example, in the following thread ...

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/bricasti-m1-dac-vs-ps-audio-direct-stream-dac?page=9

... two members reported that inserting an inexpensive Netgear switch between their router and the ethernet interface in their audio system resulted in significant sonic improvement. One of those members, whose system is of exceptionally high calibre, was extremely skeptical initially, but ended up saying "I can’t believe it."

None of this is to say, though, that a given switch will provide benefits that are consistent from system to system, or that there will necessarily be much if any correlation between the cost of a switch and the benefits it may provide.

Regards,
-- Al"

Do you know what's in it?

$800 for an unmanged 8-port switch?  I'm in the wrong business.  That's borderline criminal.

@wsrrsw 

If I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'll be sure to take you up on the offer!

@yage I have done an A/B test. I’m in N Cal and if you are too you are welcome to hear for yourself.

@thyname 

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by 'leakage'. Do you mean noise?

If so, the minds behind the Ethernet spec thought of this. That's why the cables use twisted pairs of wires and the physical connections are transformer coupled. Additionally, signalling is differential. This is all to reduce noise and ensure error-free data transmission.

Clock phase noise (i.e. jitter) will cause bit errors if at a high enough level. Fortunately, you can check for errors by using the 'netstat -e' command on Windows or the 'netstat -i' command on macOS. On my Macbook Pro, it currently shows zero errors out of ~3.8 M frames received.

@wsrrsw 

I'd like to believe you, but I'm afraid it just doesn't make any sense. If a PSU could improve the performance of a switch, don't you think the Cisco Systems of the world would advertise PSU upgrades for all their switches to get the 'best performance' and sell more product? I'm sure they wouldn't mind the additional revenue.

Here's a test you should try if your family is game - have someone switch out (see what I did there?) your JCAT one day without you knowing. Let them keep track of whether or not you heard a difference over ten trials. Could be fun.

 Either the data gets to it's destination recoverable or not . If there is to much "other stuff" then the data isn't recoverable. This applies to emails, bill pay through your bank, accessing medical records or music streams all of which go through dozens if not  hundreds of nodes. In audio if the DAC can read the data you're good to go but of course this is all basic stuff Mycroft. 

@yage : it’s not about the “data”. Everyone knows that. Basic stuff Sherlock. It’s about other stuff that travels on the Ethernet transmission line for a ride and straight into you equipment. Mainly leakage—both high-impedance and low-impedance—and clock phase-noise.

@yage

With apologies to Paul Simon and Mose Allison

“It’s really not my habit to intrude
Furthermore, I hope my meaning
Won’t be lost or misconstrued
But I’ll repeat myself
At the risk of being crude” your gotcha moment ain’t got me dude.

In one word, forgetaboutit.

I watched untill it was clear this was a test of a COMPUTER based signal into a snazzy headphone amp.

Having converted years back from computer streaming to using a streamer, I’ll stay with a streamer, roubust PSU and ethernet cleanup with no switch (filter’s yes).

I’m willing to admit that I don’t know about high end computer audio.

On my rig the JCat is top dog. Naturally I have listened with and without it.

I’m also willing to admit of possible bais with new grear but this snake oil is non toxic and delicious.

“Please don’t talk about me when I’m gone
Though our love has ended from now on
If you can’t say anything real nice
Just don’t talk at all, that’s my advice

You’ll go your way, I’ll go mine
It’s better that we do
Here’s a kiss I hope that this
Brings lots of love to you

Makes no difference how I carry on
Please don’t talk about me when I’m gone.”

Hope you know I’m kidding.

I’m not kidding that better liniear power into a swich, filter, Roon Nucleus, makes a difference to all (2) of my test subjects who I pay to agree with me by the trap of marriage (I digress). If that educational video had fitted either switch maybe with a great PSU that would have cured my ADD rather than caused it

@wsrrsw 

I find it hard to take seroiuly folks who haven’t tried equipment they excoriate but haven’t used or been around. Ah the internet.

Well that's good news because In the video, they compared the AQVOX vs. the standard D-Link switch with blind listening tests. Out of two rounds of testing with 10 participants, the AQVOX was selected as the better sounding option once, the standard D-Link switch was selected 4 times, and the rest of the times there was no difference heard. You watched the video, right?

There's no reason why a network switch whose only purpose is to move data without error from point A to point B should change the sound. This is the beauty of digital data. No matter how many times data is moved through the switch, a perfect copy is made on the receiving end. This is fundamental to how digital audio and systems (i.e. PCs, streamers, the internet, etc.) work. Otherwise, none of these things would be usable.

So with that fact in mind, the only way the sound would be different is if somehow the data payload bits were being changed by the switch. That means if you copied a file from one device to another using that switch, it would be different on the receiving end. You can test this yourself with tools built into all the major operating systems in use today. No measurements needed.

Try it with your JCAT switch vs. a normal switch (perhaps on the cable modem or wi-fi router supplied by your ISP).

@urbie you are right the podiums or at least the isoAcoustics products should be used  to decouple speakers.

@ilkeresmer I am going to say you are wrong All the switches are snake oil imo... if you have a good newtwork player that s all...

I have an Innuos Statement and upgraded to fiber using the Gtek Media Converters (a switch) and it was a marked improvement. I also have a LessLoss Echo’s End DAC equipped with the LessLoss Firewall 640X and I added the Gtek based on peoples experiences here on Agon.

Open your third eye, mind and ears to what can be for cheap sometimes.

Now lets talk about $8500 power cords.

actually audioTroy,

people are still laughing at speaker spikes because they don't isolate anything, the vibration is going to the floor and then from the floor they go back to the spikes and into the speaker shaking them, those spikes are useless, decoupling speakers is the only way to go not coupling and the best isolation product for that is the Townshend podiums, maybe you should go look them up.

There's no such thing as an audio grade switch. 

This butchered TP Link  that is marketed as one is a bit more snake oily than most. 

@ilkeresmer 

All the switches are snake oil imo... if you have a good newtwork player that s all...

True that you can end up with a satisfying sound with ethernet to a good network player. But that 'satisfying sound,' can be improved upon.

In small increments with differing additions these (you call them snake oil) pieces add to a greater whole. I have lifted my system performance in this way, one effective piece being a reclocked network switch.

Many modern high-end digital processors or DACs take advantage of the XMOS xCORE-200 digital receiver. The xCORE-200 massively over samples all incoming digital streams and transfers them on to the I2S bus with absolute jitter free certainty. This technology has rendered most re-clocking and jitter reducing accessories obsolete.

Tech Blog: Using technology to upgrade Digital Signal Processing without added complexity or expense

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP dealer

As it’s been written over and over here, there snd everywhere there are many variables in systems/rooms. 

With my gear I found the EtherRegen made a difference and the Jcat M12 more so.

Some of these “snake oil” solutions are actual tonics. 

I find it hard to take seroiuly folks who haven’t tried equipment they excoriate but haven’t used or been around. Ah the internet. 

“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

Isaac Asimov

Sure there are 1s and 0s.  If somebody buys something and it works good for them.  Aqvox must sell enough to stay in business, for example.

But, good streaming requires proper streamer design, filtering for EMI/RF,,  linear power supplies anything to lower the noise floor.  You will here better sound. 

All the switches are snake oil imo... if you have a good newtwork player that s all...

The Fidelizer Etherstream network switch, which I have, definitely improves TV resolution-Its easy to see the difference .So it does "something" As far as audio is concerned I doubt if I could tell the difference.

Every component in the chain must change something -Its never benign 

Any power cord under $8500.00 for 5 meters is garbage. 

Early this year, my Internet service provider came to my house to remove their old wifi router and put a pair of wifi mesh instead. When I tested my streaming, I am shock to notice a significant improvement in Sound Quality. Instanteously I love my internet service provider..LOL. It does not cost me any $$$$$. I also started to store music into Asustor NAS. And I do not listen to music via Tidal that much anymore (as before) as the music coming from my NAS are just awesomely sound wwith better dynamic, more open, loving the top end, more detail, vocals are warmer, liquid,  etc...I love it.

Recently I purchased an audiophile switch just to try out. And I noticed it did make my streaming sound a little bit better. Music are more focus and bass tighter. But a great improvement I see are my video quality from my cable TV and Android Box going into that audiophile switch. Not an expensive switch but made by those people who create ’Jay Audio" .

Nope.

Snake oil of the century is 6 feet of mains cable costing $5k that does nothing that a 20amp stock cable can’t do.

 

I refuse to pay more than $4K for a power cable.

I’m using a power line adapter so I doubt it will help me much. To bad my internet comes into a bedroom and not my family room.

I think you should jump over to ASR for your fun nyc_ben. Tired of people dissing kit they haven’t tried.

I have a friend who recommended this switch to me. I went a slightly different direction (but along the same track).

I have an Aqvox 5v USB linear power supply which was beneficial, to power the Halide Bridge I was using at the time.

A good network switch can and does make a Audible improvement 

for example the Uptone Audio Ether regen  at $630  it absolutely works with many reviews , much better still is the Synergistic research Ethernet switch and power cord $2k. Is pretty steep  but makes Avery nice improvement in fidelity 

I currently have the uptone I may go with a Quality Ethernet to fiber optic like Sonore .very good digital cost $$ ,just as a good turntable does.

Or 'shallow ground'?

Nope.

Snake oil of the century is 6 feet of mains cable costing $5k that does nothing that a 20amp stock cable can’t do.

@clearthinker And another $5k box to hook the grounds up to?

I might start a company and call it “hallowed ground.”

Nope.

Snake oil of the century is 6 feet of mains cable costing $5k that does nothing that a 20amp stock cable can't do.

 

better grounding, or cleaner grounds can fix a lot of the impression of ’grunge’ in some digital based audio systems. Not always, but it can happen.

same for purely analog systems. the ground and it’s qualities can be and is important. This can be a problem in apartments, high rises, places with bad grounding dry grounds around the house in situ, or dried out oxidized ground rods, etc.

@teo_audio How do planes and satellites work then?
They do not have access to ground rods, and many seem to use use digital systems.

better grounding, or cleaner grounds can fix a lot of the impression of 'grunge' in some digital based audio systems. Not always, but it can happen.

same for purely analog systems. the ground and it's qualities can be and is important. This can be a problem in apartments, high rises, places with bad grounding dry grounds around the house in situ, or dried out oxidized ground rods, etc.

I tend to encourage show runners (the people putting on audio shows) at hotels, in hotel rooms, to hire an electrician and to go around and check  all the connections in all the panels in the rooms, to re-screw all wire connections (loosen and re-tighten), to flip all the breakers, etc. This will generally make the entire show sound just a hair better, and makes some rooms go from disasters to OK.

I do not care. 

Period, Linus or whatever his name is, is a gaming geek. 

Nothing fun about watching stupid commercials.

I wonder if he tests fuses?