@geoffkait yep sorry. In a Uber headed to the airport. I read it. Understand tho that I am not a proponent of breaking in audio gear so this whole thing to me is just an experiment definitely mot going to invest money in break in records or anything else. Just saying. Thanks for the info tho.
Skeptic or just plain hard headed
So I purchased a pair of Morrow Audio phono cables. These are the PH3 with the Eichmann connectors. Wanted to start there to see if MA cables will be a viable option for my system.I think my story is not so unique to others who have purchased MA cables. So no need to go into the hu hum of burn-in in regards to MA cables, and how things sound bad at first, then gets better, then excellent...yada yada yada. I know the story about this product. I simply am one who is not a believer in electronics break in periods, or battery packs on cables, etc... Regardless of what side of the fence you are on in regards to that Im NOT trying to start that debate again please.. Anyway. After reading several reviews of the MA cables and understanding that most agreed that the cables needed a substantial burn-in time, and that the cables would not sound its best until this happens I decided to give them a try. Thinking ok lets get a jump on the burn-in period (if the concept is true). I paid for the 2 day burn-in service from MA. What I didn't expect is that when I got the cable it would sound as bad as it did in comparison to my existing name brand cable (not getting into that either, not relevant). I thought well the cable might not quite be up to snuff with all this talk about burn-in (if its true) but not that much of a difference. I mean as soon as I dropped the needle on the record I immediately heard a profound difference in sound stage and clarity degridation. Needless to say this cable was destined to be returned to MA for a full refund and my thinking was "they are crazy if I am going to trade my cable for this cable" So I decided to give MA a call to setup the return. Talked with Mike Morrow (very nice guy by the way) and we had our differences in what I should expect out of his product. Now my Mother always told me that I have a hard head.. I heard that growing up all my life, and when you couple that with skepticism it makes a pretty, well lets just say not a very fun person to have a debate with lol. However Mike insisted that if I return the cable that I would be missing out on the fruit they would bare after 400 hours of break in. 400 hours??? really!. Oh at that point I was really ready to return them. I told all my friends "Mike must be nuts" (no offense Mike) no way am I going to wait a year to hear what this cable is capable of, AND I do not have any way to expedite the process...at least I thought I didn't until I found an old sound bar I don't use anymore with analog inputs. Ok I know you pro MA and pro cable burn-in folks are chomping at the bit. Im almost done. Take your hands off the keyboard for just a few more lines.
So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so? I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.
I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL. For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS.
For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete. However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.
I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results.
happy listening!!
-Keith
So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so? I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.
I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL. For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS.
For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete. However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.
I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results.
happy listening!!
-Keith
440 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Keith - not nearly an attack...simply observing of your writing style. Surely cables, capacitors, volume controls, etc, etc. all change their makeup after a while of use. My cables came to me sporting fuzz, no bass, no air....missing all that all of us listen for. The magic of the cables changing was a fascinating experience....as the low end stretched its legs, the alacrity of the mids opened up, etc. It took about a week of an hour or so a day of changing its spots to mature... certainly a worthwhile experience. |
| Post removed |
All cables require break in to sound their best. The only real debate is how long break in should be and what the best means of break in are. If you’re not really into the whole sound quality thing I wouldn’t sweat it too much. But at the big shows in the big important systems one just might find some can,e cooking going on all day and night before the show opens. At least if they’re smart. |
I'm a bit of a newby in the audiophile world, so bear with me on this. If break-in on cables and/or other equipment is so critical to the enjoyment of the product, why don't manufacturers (especially in this case where an inordinate amount of burn-in is suggested) simply burn-in the products themselves? Then, instead of each customer following their own potentially flawed regimen, the burn-in could be performed in an ideal environment, and in a consistent/controlled manner? |
| Post removed |
"
why don't manufacturers (especially in this case where an inordinate amount of burn-in is suggested) simply burn-in the products themselves?" It requires space, time and money. In the end, it would up the cost to the end user and the end result is not a priority to the manufacturer as the burn-in process is done by the buyer anyway, through use. |
barnettk, I will follow your results as you are, more or less, aligned with me. Much more than this break-in business, which is suspicious to me to say the least, I am more interested in your finding that new cables sounded different from the old ones. That is a big breakthrough, if you ask me, as it is coming from someone who seems not to be overly-religious about audio things and not willing to buy all that is presented as a non-disputable fact. Now, you are not making it easy for those who never cared about cables. |
Typically when you buy a cable from the manufacturer the cable is made to order. This is the case with MA. I’m sure it’s the case with others as well. If the whole idea of burn in holds water you would still have to burn them in again when you got them anyway because they sat in the shelf and got twisted, bent etc. . Also. This is a service they can sell you. It’s all about the dollar at the end of the day. |
TG Audio, I.e., Bob Crump, who knew a little bit about sound and whose cables and power cords were among the very best extant, always burned in his cables and cords for 30 days prior to shipping. At that point in time he used the MOBIE, Maximum Overdrive Burn-in Equipment, which I also had back then. This burn in business is not anything new, for heaven’s sake. There’s no substitute for knowledge. Knowledge is what’s left after you subtract out all that stuff you learned in school. |
| Post removed |
ALL cables affect the sound and how a particular cable does is totally system dependent. see http://ielogical.com/Audio/CableSnakeOil.php Connectors outgas and oxidize and usually result in a worsening of the sound. Cable cooking is nothing more than user familiarization. As yet no one has shown how cooking changes the cable electrically. If it does not change electrically, it cannot change sonically. Burn in is as Elizabeth states, a delay tactic. |
So, I read that the PH3 has a capacitance of 294 pf per meter. That’s pretty high and exceeds the recommendation of quite a few MM models, especially when taking into account the added capacitance of the input of any non-adjustable phono preamp, which is likely to add at least a couple hundred more pf. That’s way too high and would be a reason I wouldn’t even consider that model for phono use in the first place. Compare, for example Blue Jeans LC-1 (custom Belden formulation) at 40.016 pf per meter. That is far more ideal than PH3 for MM phono cartridges and, compared to the Harmonic Technologies Prosilway Silver and VPI phono cables I own, sounds far better for Shure, Pickering, Stanton, Nagaoka and AT MM carts I use. The PH3 should never have been marketed as a phono cable for MM cartridges. It demonstrates clearly that the manufacturer knows NOTHING about phono cable design for this particular application. Remember: No amount of burn in is going to change the electrical characteristics such as resistance or capacitance that are permanently built into the cable formulation and structure. |
@stevecham. Yep you are correct. However I’m not using it as a tonearm cable. The tonearm on my table connects with DIN directly to the plinth and the outputs are I’m guessing line level from the plyinth. Never could actually get a real answer on that but the TT manufacture says it’s ok to use line level to connect to the phono Preamplifier. Cart is MC. Phono stage is ARC PH7, TT VPI Prime Jist to give you some insight. |
I hear you. I am not just skeptical I don’t believe it at all. However it’s somethibg about the sencarity of MA that made me take pause and said to myself let’s just see so I can finally draw a line in the sand in regards to the subject. Hey until now all I had was an opinion that was not based in any proof. With that said. At the end of the day I try not to judge anyone for what they believe is true and if burning in your cables or whatever other things you do if it makes YOUR system sound good to YOU and if that’s what keeps you listening to music then I’m all for it. I will never insult or criticize anyone for what they truly believe. I know that’s not where your coming from I’m just saying. So to your point. You read the articles because it’s intersting. That’s all. Nothing wrong with that. |
barnettk OP63 posts12-03-2018 11:58pmI hear you. I am not just skeptical I don’t believe it at all. However it’s somethibg about the sencarity of MA that made me take pause and said to myself let’s just see so I can finally draw a line in the sand in regards to the subject. >>>>>Uh, I’m pretty sure that’s the definition of hard headed. Mystery solved! 😃 |
Elizabeth-not sure where you heard from Paul at ps audio that burn in doesn’t improve the sound of their equipment but you are very wrong. Watch this: https://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/is-equipment-burn-in-real/ i have multiple new PS Audio equipment pieces and each 1 of them has improved in SQ after many days of burn in. If you watch this clip, he states that his stellar equipment takes many many days to start sounding good and asks the new owners to be patient. I know manufacturers state that it can take up to 500 or more hours to burn in their equipment. As for this thread, not really sure why he posts this because he could have waited a month and wrote a piece on his experience from beginning to end. In reality the poster doesn’t believe the manufacture or maybe he doesn’t believe in equipment burn in, any equipment, which is just foolish. Just my opinion. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Lizzie, actually this is what you said, elizabeth5,902 posts12-02-2018 2:52pmBryston's James Tanner says, and PS Audio's Paul McGowan burn in the components ONLY so they don't break for the customer in the first few days. PERIOD |
All I can say is we will see. I wrote the post because I was really taken back by what I was told. 400 hours to make this cable sound good so I wanted to put it out there 1, and 2 I just thought it sound be fun to take you all on this experiment. Foolish?? Maybe. That’s your opinion. Either way we will see. So here is what I have done. Day one I made a recording to my reel to reel of how the output of TT sounds pre burn in. I felt that it may be hard to hear the same exact way things sound 16 later. The reference recording is Donald Fagen Night Fly Mo-Fi special edition. The track is IGY. This is hands down the best sounding recording in my collection. The phono preamp was connected directly to the inputs on the tape deck. After burn in Is complete I will rewind to the middle of the song, drop the stylus as close to that part of the Sony as I can and record to the end of the song (same track). When I play the recording back I should get a true a/b comparison without any time elapsing. If there is any difference in sound quality I WILL hear it. If the second half of the song sounds better I will concede that burn in makes a difference at all. At that point as a second test I will do the same thing with the burned in cable and the existing cable I’m using today to determine if the MA cable sounds better than what I have today. Simple and sweet. If I’m wrong I’m wrong and I will be happy to admit that. I am anxious to know if this is all BS. Now more than ever. I just hope they all of you can handle the truth as I am prepared to. |
Oh and if anyone has a better or another way to test this then I would love to hear it. Also I plan to enlist at least 3 other people to listen to the samples. My wife who is not into audio, and a friend of mine who follows this forum along with my 25 year old who has relatively young ears. Not looking for analysis from them only if they hear a difference in the recording. Any other ideas are welcome. |
| Post removed |
barnettk, I predict you will hear no difference in the recordings. Why would I say that? Because I did my own set of comparisons between "burned in" gear and new gear. While you wait your additional 400 hours you can read my article at Dagogo.com entitled, "Audiophile Law: Thou Shalt Not Overemphasize Burn In". I believe you will find much to consider there. :) |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Some items are more given to burn in improvement than others. Case in point; cartridges and speakers have always sounded better after > 60 to 100 hours in my systems. One that really surprises me is the Audience Adept Response ar2p conditioner. I have 340 hours on it now running to ss single ended mono amps. The first change started at about 40 hours then another at 200. Since then the stage has developed nicely. I've read somewhere on this forum it takes about 400 hours to fully break in. Doesn't matter at this point if it gets any better or not, it's already a keeper. My experience with cables (although there) has been less dramatic. |
@douglas_schroeder (modified/reposted to correct spelling) Very interesting article. Well written and exactly in line with my thinking. I think you nailed it with acclimation being what most consider a result of burn in (My thinking as well). I also feel that in my test hearing samples of the two versions of the cable seamlessly will definitely be a good way to detect if there is any difference. The brain will not have a chance to reset between swapping the cables and if there is a difference it will be immediately apparent. Off topic but relevant there is an excellent book I recommend in regards to how our brains tell us what we hear, and how we hear it when we listen to music. You may have read it, its titled "This is you brain on music" (the science of human obsession) by Daniel J Levitin. Very good read. Basically we intuitively know when we are hearing music correctly even though we may not know anything about how music is made or how to play it. We have learned it from birth. For evaluation phase of my test I am also going to use another "audiophile" and someone who is not into the hobby because you do not have to be an audiophile in order to detect if there is a change in the quality the sample. Hopefully that will add some validity to the test, but Im sure as you pointed out that there will be people who doubt the results. Nice article, and nice work Douglas. |
Some items are more given to burn in improvement than others. Case in point; cartridges and speakers have always sounded better after > 60 to 100 hours in my systems.Those are mechanical systems, like shoes, and take time to loosen up. Cables, OTOH, are like a rain coat. It either keeps you dry or it doesn't. It may have other properties like being too heavy or too hot, but those are secondary to its primary purpose. |
I use Morrow cables and I might like them a little better BEFORE break-in, although I have to admit they can sound fine after break-in...Still...I simply use them for a while and then swap them out hoping they will "un" break-in so I can put them back in the rotation, but have to constantly monitor them to make sure they don’t get "too" broken in as that just ruins everything until I swap them out for ones that have rested and lost their broken-in sound. This involves careful listening, and the ability to jump up and swap out the cables fast to insure no excessive break-in has occurred. |
