Here’s what George Cardas says about cable burn in. Check it out.
http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php
http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php
Skeptic or just plain hard headed
So I purchased a pair of Morrow Audio phono cables. These are the PH3 with the Eichmann connectors. Wanted to start there to see if MA cables will be a viable option for my system.I think my story is not so unique to others who have purchased MA cables. So no need to go into the hu hum of burn-in in regards to MA cables, and how things sound bad at first, then gets better, then excellent...yada yada yada. I know the story about this product. I simply am one who is not a believer in electronics break in periods, or battery packs on cables, etc... Regardless of what side of the fence you are on in regards to that Im NOT trying to start that debate again please.. Anyway. After reading several reviews of the MA cables and understanding that most agreed that the cables needed a substantial burn-in time, and that the cables would not sound its best until this happens I decided to give them a try. Thinking ok lets get a jump on the burn-in period (if the concept is true). I paid for the 2 day burn-in service from MA. What I didn't expect is that when I got the cable it would sound as bad as it did in comparison to my existing name brand cable (not getting into that either, not relevant). I thought well the cable might not quite be up to snuff with all this talk about burn-in (if its true) but not that much of a difference. I mean as soon as I dropped the needle on the record I immediately heard a profound difference in sound stage and clarity degridation. Needless to say this cable was destined to be returned to MA for a full refund and my thinking was "they are crazy if I am going to trade my cable for this cable" So I decided to give MA a call to setup the return. Talked with Mike Morrow (very nice guy by the way) and we had our differences in what I should expect out of his product. Now my Mother always told me that I have a hard head.. I heard that growing up all my life, and when you couple that with skepticism it makes a pretty, well lets just say not a very fun person to have a debate with lol. However Mike insisted that if I return the cable that I would be missing out on the fruit they would bare after 400 hours of break in. 400 hours??? really!. Oh at that point I was really ready to return them. I told all my friends "Mike must be nuts" (no offense Mike) no way am I going to wait a year to hear what this cable is capable of, AND I do not have any way to expedite the process...at least I thought I didn't until I found an old sound bar I don't use anymore with analog inputs. Ok I know you pro MA and pro cable burn-in folks are chomping at the bit. Im almost done. Take your hands off the keyboard for just a few more lines.
So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so? I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.
I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL. For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS.
For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete. However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.
I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results.
happy listening!!
-Keith
So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so? I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.
I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL. For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS.
For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete. However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.
I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results.
happy listening!!
-Keith
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
stevecham3,040 posts12-30-2018 1:34pmIn my experience, what DOES make a difference is the balance of the disc. I had several discs modified by the Audio Desk Systeme device and listened before and after. In each case, much to my skepticism and surprise, the sound was smoother with more bass and dynamic punch. Rotational balance puts less strain on the transport so less error corrective action is needed. Makes sense. >>>>>Eggs ackley! 🐣 Thass what I been saying. It means the whole system is prone to error. Hel-loo! The Audio Deske System also cut the outer edge of the CD at some acute angle, which IIRC was intended to reduce errors due to background scattered laser light getting into the photodetector. Unfortunately, the Audio Deske System came with a black marker for the CD outer edge, which we now know should have been green. 😢 |
aberyclark502 posts12-29-2018 9:53pmI’m going to try it on a dvd and see if the picture looks better. >>>>>Pop quiz no. 1 (trick question) What color would work for Blu Ray discs? >>>>>Pop quiz no. 2 (trick question) What color would work for Mercury Living Presence CDs (black and white label)? |
elizabeth6,088 posts12-29-2018 4:25pmI would never apply anything to the inner edge. The transport holds the CD via the inner edge... and I do not want to get it gunked up with stuff from the CD. Green, black, on the outer edge... no problem to my ears. (My guess is the real 'problem' is the black marker costs a buck, the official green marker $30. Audiophile approved. LOL) >>>>I hate to judge too hastily but it looks like you’re in the hard-headed camp. |
No offense to anyone but the color black on the outer edge hurts the sound. Some folks have even painted the entire label side black for all the CDs in their big collection. Big mistake. However, black and only black should be used for the inner edge. For the student, what color should be used for Blu Ray? This is getting a little edgy. 😛 |
barnettk OP196 posts12-29-2018 10:28am@geoffkait thsts a good explanation at least. Most people just say it’s magic. We will see if anyone else adds to it. So reducing read errors and adding weight to the outer edge does that make the music sound better? I’m seriously asking because I do t know. If you say yes you know what I’m going to do right?? >>>>Would I kid you? For the student, http://machinadynamica.com/machina23.htm |
The reason the ring has to be green is because green is the complementary color of red, which means red + green = black I should warn you, however, the CD laser wavelength is actually around 780 nm, which is in the near infrared portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, in the invisible portion. Visible red light stops around 700 nm. If you see what I mean. 😳 |
aberyclark Of course I was joking about CD’s sound better with more plays. >>>>>Gosh, really? aberyclark Audio it is no different than any other hobby. You have snake oil and gullible people with money. I’m just not one to think $5000 for a small bag of “ sonic pebbles” will improve your system. >>>>Like you know. Power to the Pebble! ✊ |
Putting a green ring around the edge of a CD does two things. 1. It stabilizes the disc while spinning by adding mass to the outer circumference, thus reducing optical read errors. CDs are often out of round and or not perfectly level whilst playing. 2. It absorbs visible red scattered laser light that could otherwise get into the photodetector as noise, thus reducing optical read errors. |
Geez, these demands for cable manufacturers to burn their cables in are a little bit late. Throbbing Gristle TG Audio burned in their speaker cables, interconnects and power cords for 30 days prior to shipping and shipped everything in anti static bags. Too bad more folks don’t follow the right sheep 🐑. What’s next, demands for fuse manufacturers to burn their fuses in prior to shipping? Are speaker manufacturers now supposed to burn in their speakers? And what about amplifier designers? And what of CD players? Are these the same manufacturers who display brand new equipment at CES? Have they not heard of burn in? OMG! Saints preserve us! Maybe the best thing to do in these stressful angst filled times is take the bull by the horns and do whatever you think needs to be done, and not wait for the industry to catch up to audiophiles. |
barnettk "Why would MA suggest reversing the cables?" I assume that he thought maybe it would improve the way the cable sounded since in our conversation I did not feel that the cable sounded that good from the start. >>>>If MA controls his cable for directionality and labels the cables for direction why would he suggest reversing them to see if that would improve the sound? It doesn’t make sense. I realize I’m retreating myself. Unless the cables are shielded, then I couid see why he would say that. The reason Audioquest and some other cable companies *control directionality* during fabrication of the cables is so the customer will know a priori which way to hook up the cable for the *best sound.* When ANY cable is not in the “correct direction” the sound will suffer relative to the other direction. That’s why fuse direction is important, too. It’s the same issue. |
elizabeth6,002 posts12-18-2018 7:22pmYou know Geoff, you could start a service to help with direction on cables..For a fee folks send you their cables and YOU figure out which way they go... If you were able to hear you could do it yourself. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 God helps those who help themselves. |
I only ask good questions. 😛 Why would MA suggest reversing the cables if he controls the cables for wire directionality? Sometimes arrows on cables indicate direction as regards *shielding*. Maybe he is not on board the directionality train. I don’t know. If a cable is unshielded and has arrows the arrows indicate direction of wire. But many cables don’t control directionality durIng the manufacturing process so for any cable the odds are 50% the cable will be in the correct (best sounding) direction when you hook it up. If the cable is not controlled for wire directionality but is directional due to shielding that is a conflict. I am saying all wire is directional, thus all cables are directional whether the manufacturer says so or not. |
Reversing cables does not (rpt not) diminish the effects of burn in. Do it today! Question - how do you know both cables are in the same direction as regards the wire directionality? In other words, one cable have been put together reverse of the other, you know, if Morrow doesn’t control directionality? That would complicate things if true. |
Proposition: A scanning electron microscope will reveal changes to cryo’d metal conductors or other metal items but won’t reveal changes to metal conductors resulting from burn in most likely because burn in of cables doesn’t involve the conductor. It’s an excellent example of measuring the wrong thing. If there were differences in the crystalline structure on the surface of the wire due to burn in a scanning electron microscope would be able to observe them. Agree, disagree? |
OK. Did MA ever explain why their cables do not sound good out of the box? People often complain things don’t sound good out of the box, I have noticed it many times including at CES where you really hear when the entire system needs burning in. I mentioned somewhere recently how some exhibits use burn in devices all day and all night trying to get sound that doesn’t suck by the time the doors open. More specifically, people complain things sound strange, lifeless, bass shy, fooled off, flat, honky, sour, irritating, lackluster, threadbare, or like paper mache. Maybe you just weren’t paying close attention because at that time you didn’t think about burn in, or your system wasn’t as revealing or there is something very unusual about MA cables. I will stop now. 😬 |
Question, what makes you think Morrow cables are the only ones that require a long break in. It sounds like Morrow is brave and honest enough to at least explain the facts of life to you. Haven’t you been paying attention to all the capacitor burn in and fuse burn in threads and other cable burn in threads? As I mentioned somewhere recently when bob sold TG Audio cables he burned them in for 30 days on a burn in device. That’s 24x30 or more than 700 hours according to my calculator. |
I have a funny feeling he won’t be ordering any more Morrow Cables or burning in any more cables. Just a hunch. Besides, analog tape - even with its limitations, whatever you want to come up with - still sounds considerably better than digital under normal conditions. I’ll grant you CD looks great on paper. No argument there. I won’t address the whole double blind test issue here again. You know.... |
Thanx, eels, I sometimes feel a twinge of remorse whenever I boost my own products here. Much appreciated. I’m given serious consideration to putting you in my stable. But first try to make your sentences grammatically correct. barbettk, there’s no reason to use foul language here. Is this your first rodeo, cowpoke? |
barnettk OP114 posts12-08-2018 11:51am@geoffkait soooo your not using cables now? No more cables, no more power cords No more ICs, no more fuses No more big transformers No more giant capacitors No more house AC or AC GROUND No more pencils, no more books No more teacher’s dirty looks 🤓 |
I had the M.O.B.I.E. Maximum Overdrive Burn In Electronics burn in device, the very one that John Curl and Bob Crump used to burn in of all their Throbbing Gristle TG power cords and interconnects fir the two shows I participated in. Alan Kafton’s Cable Cooker was used to burn in all Jena Labs and Shunyata cables for the monster Tenor Audio-Rockport system I participated in. Playing music through cables will never really get close to the performance an active device or burn in track provide. If you could hear what I’ve heard with my ears. your friend and audio insider |
This is all getting kind of silly. You can test for any hypothesis or proposition you want to, whether it’s whether cable burn is audible or whether lifting cables off the floor is audible. Or whether cables are directional. Or whatever. But it helps a whole lot to know what all of the variables are, the variables that affect the sound, even the ones not related to the audio system per se. At a minimum as many variables as you can think of. That way you can at least try to CONTROL the variables whilst you test whatever hypothesis you wish. It’s like the dude in 12 Angry Men yells, but we’ve been through all that already! Starter kit of variables Time of day Day of week Weather conditions Temperature/humidity Solar flares Traffic conditions |