Lol
Skeptic or just plain hard headed
So I purchased a pair of Morrow Audio phono cables. These are the PH3 with the Eichmann connectors. Wanted to start there to see if MA cables will be a viable option for my system.I think my story is not so unique to others who have purchased MA cables. So no need to go into the hu hum of burn-in in regards to MA cables, and how things sound bad at first, then gets better, then excellent...yada yada yada. I know the story about this product. I simply am one who is not a believer in electronics break in periods, or battery packs on cables, etc... Regardless of what side of the fence you are on in regards to that Im NOT trying to start that debate again please.. Anyway. After reading several reviews of the MA cables and understanding that most agreed that the cables needed a substantial burn-in time, and that the cables would not sound its best until this happens I decided to give them a try. Thinking ok lets get a jump on the burn-in period (if the concept is true). I paid for the 2 day burn-in service from MA. What I didn't expect is that when I got the cable it would sound as bad as it did in comparison to my existing name brand cable (not getting into that either, not relevant). I thought well the cable might not quite be up to snuff with all this talk about burn-in (if its true) but not that much of a difference. I mean as soon as I dropped the needle on the record I immediately heard a profound difference in sound stage and clarity degridation. Needless to say this cable was destined to be returned to MA for a full refund and my thinking was "they are crazy if I am going to trade my cable for this cable" So I decided to give MA a call to setup the return. Talked with Mike Morrow (very nice guy by the way) and we had our differences in what I should expect out of his product. Now my Mother always told me that I have a hard head.. I heard that growing up all my life, and when you couple that with skepticism it makes a pretty, well lets just say not a very fun person to have a debate with lol. However Mike insisted that if I return the cable that I would be missing out on the fruit they would bare after 400 hours of break in. 400 hours??? really!. Oh at that point I was really ready to return them. I told all my friends "Mike must be nuts" (no offense Mike) no way am I going to wait a year to hear what this cable is capable of, AND I do not have any way to expedite the process...at least I thought I didn't until I found an old sound bar I don't use anymore with analog inputs. Ok I know you pro MA and pro cable burn-in folks are chomping at the bit. Im almost done. Take your hands off the keyboard for just a few more lines.
So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so? I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.
I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL. For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS.
For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete. However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.
I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results.
happy listening!!
-Keith
So here is the deal to be fair I am going to be open minded about this because Mike really made me feel like I would be missing out if I return the cable without a proper burn-in (great salesman), and since he had such conviction I now think I have to test this thing out right??. Now I know that there are testimonials out there about how the MA cable improved over 100s of hours in their system, and that they are now "blown away". However can you really hear a profound difference in a cable you play in your system over 170 hours or so? I would think a gradual difference would be harder to detect. I mean my system seems to sound better to me everyday without making any changes. Is it because of continued cable and electronics burn in?? maybe. Or maybe its just my brain becoming more intimate with the sound of my system. Well this test I'm doing should reveal a night and day difference from what the system sounds like today with the cable pre burn-in if there is any merit to the notion. In regards to does it sound better than my existing cable that is yet to be determined. I think my goal now is to prove or dis-prove if cable burn-in is a real thing. This whole idea has evolved from if it's an improvement or not over what I use today. We can discuss that later.
I now have the cable connected between a cd player , and a sound bar with a CD playing on repeat. The disc of choice for this burn-in is rather dynamic so it should be a good test. At the end of 16 days (384 hours) I will move the cables to my reference system and do about another 20 hours of additional burn-in to compensate for moving the cable. This will put a total of 452 hours of burn-in on the PH3. When I put this cable back in my system I sure hope it sings because this is a lot to go through to add a cable to your system. Mike if you are right I will eat crow and will preach from the highest mountain top that you are right, and that cable burn-in is REAL. For me anyway the myth will be considered busted or reinforce my belief that cable burn-in is a bunch of BS.
For those who will argue the point of cable burn-in I fully understand the concept, and I don't plan to get sucked down that rat hole and I won't argue that....yet because at the end of this test I may be in your camp and I don't want to have a steady diet of crow so for now I will remain neutral on the subject until the test is complete. However I will be totally transparent and honest about the results. So not trying to make anyone angry as I know beliefs about audio are sensitive subjects, and rightfully so this hobby is expensive and I like you have a substancial investment in this. Just trying to get to the truth. I also understand that cable burn-in may actually happen when you consider it from a scientific perspective, but the real question is can you actually hear the difference.
I will report back to this thread in 17 days from today (need at least one day to evaluate) with the results.
happy listening!!
-Keith
Showing 50 responses by barnettk
yeah I don't have a tuner which is a good option but I think how I have it setup will suffice. I also have a little sonos connect in another system that I may switch them to today and simply play my apple music library. I really don't want to leave a mechanical device continuously playing for 400 hours. |
@stringreen lets just get this out of the way. At least I'm giving it a fair assessment. I am just not one to just accept anything someone tells me. This is an argument that has been raging for years so I want to hear for myself. If you don't like it then ignore the thread but I am not the only one that feels this way. So please don't attack me on a personal level for asking the question. I figured this would spark some debate however if you don't like my approach that's your prerogative, but try to take you personal feelings out of it. |
@djones51 "Since you are going through all this trouble why not add one more twist have a friend attach the new burned in cable or not without telling you then switch it around or not a few times. I am not trying to provoke those who believe in burn in or those who don't but you say you're wanting a fair assessment. Just food for thought." That is the plan. Well sort of. Since i don't know anyone else with the same cable that is burned in I can only execute the second part of the test. Which is comparing the burned in cable with the cable I am using currently. Since the cable is cooking now (no pun intended) unfortunately I will have to be the judge of if it sounds better in two weeks vs what It sounded like when it was new. Not sure how well that will work out, but I should have a good idea. I gave the system a good listening to and IMO it was so bad that I should be able to judge if its better. How much so we will see. Really the only thing I can do moving forward is to compare the cable to what I have, which is the ultimate goal anyway right. So I have a couple friends lined up to help me with the blind test. I just need to find a way to do it without continuously connecting and disconnecting the cable once burn in is complete. I will think of something. Thanks for the suggestion. |
@elizabeth Exactly what I am trying to avoid which is why I was a little disappointed at the start. This is a phono cable. I purchased my ARC phono stage 2 years ago and it just now hit 400 hours so I just think its ridiculous to have to wait 2 years to reap the benefits of my investment. Its not like I play 20 albums a day so under normal play it will take a long long time before reaching that sweet spot. Your dead on point with my frustration. |
@bigkidz From what I understand this is the whole premise behind cables with battery packs lol... sorry I just have to laugh at that... anyway.. the battery is supposed to keep the cable supplied with a current to prevent the aforementioned from happening. This according to Alex at AQ among others. However I have spoken to a few electrical engineers that totally do not believe in that.. their words not mine. Just saying. |
@bigkidz actually its a good point. I thought about that also. There are some that suggest that the cable will return to its normal molecular structure once the signal has been removed for a period of time, and under normal play if this is true then it would make sense to try and mimic normal playing conditions as much as possible, but I am going to take the recommendation of the manufacure and the documentation that comes with the cable in regards to expediting the process. Good point and thanks for the info. |
@glupson. The burn-in you can choose how many days you want them to burn them in. I did not realize that the recommended amount of time was 400 hours. Now to fair I did not see this info on the MA website when I ordered them, but was not looking either but I won’t say it’s not documented. I did however read from other reviewers that there was a substantial burn in period but I just thought that meant more like 50 hours or so. It’s not uncommon for manufacturers to have a recommended burn in period but for a cable I just thought 48 hours would be enough. The cost was minimal so I just said “why not” don’t even get me started on what I really think about paying for burn-in services geez. Anyway. You pay them to burn them in for however many days you choose I guess maybe to get a jump on it. Just so happened in this case I was told that 50 hours is when the cable starts to sound it’s worst and that I needed to wait for another 100 hours or so before things start to “really turn around”. I still have about 55 days or so before I’m out of the return period so I said what the heck let’s test it out. So that’s where we are. :) |
Typically when you buy a cable from the manufacturer the cable is made to order. This is the case with MA. I’m sure it’s the case with others as well. If the whole idea of burn in holds water you would still have to burn them in again when you got them anyway because they sat in the shelf and got twisted, bent etc. . Also. This is a service they can sell you. It’s all about the dollar at the end of the day. |
@stevecham. Yep you are correct. However I’m not using it as a tonearm cable. The tonearm on my table connects with DIN directly to the plinth and the outputs are I’m guessing line level from the plyinth. Never could actually get a real answer on that but the TT manufacture says it’s ok to use line level to connect to the phono Preamplifier. Cart is MC. Phono stage is ARC PH7, TT VPI Prime Jist to give you some insight. |
I hear you. I am not just skeptical I don’t believe it at all. However it’s somethibg about the sencarity of MA that made me take pause and said to myself let’s just see so I can finally draw a line in the sand in regards to the subject. Hey until now all I had was an opinion that was not based in any proof. With that said. At the end of the day I try not to judge anyone for what they believe is true and if burning in your cables or whatever other things you do if it makes YOUR system sound good to YOU and if that’s what keeps you listening to music then I’m all for it. I will never insult or criticize anyone for what they truly believe. I know that’s not where your coming from I’m just saying. So to your point. You read the articles because it’s intersting. That’s all. Nothing wrong with that. |
Oh and if anyone has a better or another way to test this then I would love to hear it. Also I plan to enlist at least 3 other people to listen to the samples. My wife who is not into audio, and a friend of mine who follows this forum along with my 25 year old who has relatively young ears. Not looking for analysis from them only if they hear a difference in the recording. Any other ideas are welcome. |
All I can say is we will see. I wrote the post because I was really taken back by what I was told. 400 hours to make this cable sound good so I wanted to put it out there 1, and 2 I just thought it sound be fun to take you all on this experiment. Foolish?? Maybe. That’s your opinion. Either way we will see. So here is what I have done. Day one I made a recording to my reel to reel of how the output of TT sounds pre burn in. I felt that it may be hard to hear the same exact way things sound 16 later. The reference recording is Donald Fagen Night Fly Mo-Fi special edition. The track is IGY. This is hands down the best sounding recording in my collection. The phono preamp was connected directly to the inputs on the tape deck. After burn in Is complete I will rewind to the middle of the song, drop the stylus as close to that part of the Sony as I can and record to the end of the song (same track). When I play the recording back I should get a true a/b comparison without any time elapsing. If there is any difference in sound quality I WILL hear it. If the second half of the song sounds better I will concede that burn in makes a difference at all. At that point as a second test I will do the same thing with the burned in cable and the existing cable I’m using today to determine if the MA cable sounds better than what I have today. Simple and sweet. If I’m wrong I’m wrong and I will be happy to admit that. I am anxious to know if this is all BS. Now more than ever. I just hope they all of you can handle the truth as I am prepared to. |
@douglas_schroeder (modified/reposted to correct spelling) Very interesting article. Well written and exactly in line with my thinking. I think you nailed it with acclimation being what most consider a result of burn in (My thinking as well). I also feel that in my test hearing samples of the two versions of the cable seamlessly will definitely be a good way to detect if there is any difference. The brain will not have a chance to reset between swapping the cables and if there is a difference it will be immediately apparent. Off topic but relevant there is an excellent book I recommend in regards to how our brains tell us what we hear, and how we hear it when we listen to music. You may have read it, its titled "This is you brain on music" (the science of human obsession) by Daniel J Levitin. Very good read. Basically we intuitively know when we are hearing music correctly even though we may not know anything about how music is made or how to play it. We have learned it from birth. For evaluation phase of my test I am also going to use another "audiophile" and someone who is not into the hobby because you do not have to be an audiophile in order to detect if there is a change in the quality the sample. Hopefully that will add some validity to the test, but Im sure as you pointed out that there will be people who doubt the results. Nice article, and nice work Douglas. |
"Cables are far more than two pieces of copper. They are also plastic, cotton, geometry, connector and join method. Cables can be designed or engineered. Most audiophile cables are designed and their defects sold as benefits. Said benefit then exposes a "flaw" in a perfectly good component and the merry-go-round begins anew. I hear you. I agree cables are designed and engineered. I get it. I admitted that I do believe now that different ICs produce different sound. In regards to AQ that's your opinion cant argue that. I tend to like them. Why do they name them...Why does BMW have about 50 different series of cars with at least 3 models being in the same series..who knows. |
@douglas_schroeder I actually saw that article and started reading it. It looked rather interesting. Never thought to try that approach. I will finish the article and may have to give it try myself, pending if it was a favorable outcome. I attempted to sign up on the site to comment but the site is not allowing new members I suspect. There is a a lot of interesting reads so it would be fun to join those conversations. |
Well regardless of the outcome One thing I can say that this whole experience has done for me is convince me that not all cables sound the same. So I have at least been able to dismiss the whole coat hanger theory. Not to get to far off topic and start a different debate but I used to think that there should not be much difference between two pieces of cooper to the point that you have to spend an enormous amount of money on cables. I would like to add that I have also learned that dollar amount does not necessarily equate to better sound. Case and point, the cable I was considering replacing with the MA cable is an Audioquest Mackenzie. The Mackenzie cost half as much as the MA cable but the MA cable did not even come close to the AQ cable in sound quality (in my system). Douglas also brings up a excellent point that component matching even down to the cable level is also very important. It may be that the MA cable would sound better under different circumstances matched with different gear/ICs. So in my case the MA cable might just not be a good choice for MY system. To his point about making large changes as opposed to small changes...If I had maybe replaced all the cables down stream with MA cables maybe I would have had a different initial experience. Who knows. To an earlier point Elizabeth made moving forward I plan to now audition several different cables for this upgrade and go with the one that sounds better out of the box and stick with that. After all it should only get better from there as I become more intimate with the sound of the change (notice I did not say burn in) |