A quick update to my HiFi Rose 150B / Mojo X ’24 post, above. After much back and froth [sp. intentional] with Benjamin and a fair bit of additional research on my part, it appears that the Rose’s manual at 3.5 Connection Between USB 3.0 Audio Output and External DAC is, what’s the word I’m looking for here -- oh, yes: whacked. As far as I can determine, the two USB 3.0 ports on the right side of the 150B’s back panel (which the Rose O.M. describes as the connection point for an external DAC) are actually inputs for things like external hard drives, thumb drives, and the like. To connect a 150B to the Mojo, go with an AES or RCA coax, and you should be fine. Getting a Windows-based laptop to play nice with the Mojo via USB is another story (figuring out which of JL’s drivers you need, DLing/installing, and other assorted techcromancy is required; sadly, this was beyond the limited training I received at Starfleet Academy). That said, Benjamin notes that Apple products are plug & play via USB, as are Lenovo devices. They have the necessary drivers baked in, whereas it appears Mr. Gates is fine with MP3s and some stock earbuds he found at the back of his desk drawer. YRMV, but I thought this might save a few folks some gnashing of teeth & rending of garments.
Six DAC Comparison
I am in the middle of comparing the sound of six different DACs in my system. I own them all (I know weird) but one of them is still within a trial/return timeframe.
Not to share specific comparisons today, but a couple of observations so far are that first, they all definitely sound different from each other. On one hand, they all sound pretty good and play what is fed to them without significant flaws but on the other hand there are definite sonic differences that make it easy to understand how a person might like the sound of some of them while not liking others.
Second, raises the observation that most of them must be doing something to shape the sound in the manner the designer intended since one of the DACs, a Benchmark DAC3 HGA, was described by John Atkinson of Stereophile as providing "state-of-the-art measured performance." In the review, JA closed the measurements section by writing, "All I can say is "Wow!" I have also owned the Tambaqui (not in my current comparison), which also measured well ("The Mola Mola Tambaqui offers state-of-the-digital-art measured performance." - JA). The Benchmark reminds me sonically of the Tambaqui, both of which are excellent sounding DACs.
My point is that if the Benchmark is providing "state-of-the-art measured performance," then one could reasonably presume that the other five DACs, which sound different from the Benchmark, do not share similar ’state-of-the-art" measurements and are doing something to subtly or not so subtly alter the sound. Whether a person likes what they hear is a different issue.
@mitch2 - Thanks again for your thoughtful reviews. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I found myself looking forward to each installment! While I’m very happy with my Merason Dac1 MKii for the moment, I’m intrigued by the Mojo dacs based on your review. Out of curiosity, have you had the opportunity to listen to any of the Lampizator Dacs as a point of reference? If so, any thoughts on how they compare to the Mojo and/or Merason dacs? |
@danager thanks. Yes, Windows reports I2SoverUSB. I know this since I had Lampizator sometime back and it uses the same JL Sounds USB receiver board in their DACs. |
@danager thanks for the info. Are you using the Thesycon or the Xmos driver from the JL Sounds download link ? Do you remember ? |
I agree 100% with Benjamin on the clocking part. The real myth is accuracy of the clock makes it sounds better not that an ocxo will sound better. Ted Smith of PS Audio has given similar explanation for audio, in the time domain small quanta accuracy is all that is needed rather than long term stability and yet we see OCXO clocks, which has the best long term stability, almost sounds better than a regular Femto/TCXO. Moreover, it’s a given fact, and somewhat similar to I2S, that the proximity of the clock is important since it can significantly reduce emi and yet we see external master clock with 1M clock cable sounds better. I have seen in some implementation with external master clock, a modestly priced 10Mhz OCXO did not improve the performance of the DAC until a very expensive one were used. This is very inline with what was described in the Mojo article regarding lower hash noise - the modestly price ocxo did not have a better hash noise than the internal clock itself and only when the expensive one was introduced did it improve the performance. I bet if we measured both these external clock in terms of accuracy in the time domain, we would be hard pressed to find any differences. But having said all these, I am surprised that Mojo doesn’t employ an ocxo in their higher end dacs even when they believe it can improve the performance or maybe they did experiment and found no appreciable difference in how it sounds. Curious.
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I2S or 110 ohm they both are top for connection. they are not a myth, if that were true then why do Top companies use them ? it comes down to how comprehensive they are implementing the connection plain and simple . For example if you use a xlr that does not mean the circuit is true balanced input to output . That’s my only point , Esoteric for just 1 example makes very $$ expensive and comprehensive dacs ,transports with I2S as their top sounding input , 110 ohm xlr can be excellent also .for a truly Great I2S cable you don’t want a generic cable with video more issues. Tubulus Dedicated just for Audio IMO makes the best per $$ in quality ,value cables .this I2S cable will compete with cables 3-4xthe cost ,this too applies to their USB which I have and next year a statement usb cable too will be coming out. read their formula, they give you the basics about their design ,very sound and make a lot of common sense but very labor intensive.,their top Ximius -I2S is Great I just ordered one as well as their top Ethernet cables ,,they will totally change your opinion of what digital can sound like I highly recommend their top 2 cables ,which have much more in depth shielding and other methods. Unless you own them you have no valid opinion.!!
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Benjamin's take on clocking can be found in here - scroll down to Myth #1-Clocking. Regarding I2S, it was primarily designed for internal use - short runs inside of equipment, which may be a reason there is still no universal standard. When I owned Metrum equipment, I heard no improvement when using the I2S input to my Pavane or Adagio DACs. In fact, with my system at the time, I liked the sound of the USB input a little better, but that required taking the Ambre streamer out of the mix so maybe it was apples and oranges. With the Singxer SU-6 DDC, I do have the option of using I2S and adjusting as needed to match specific manufacturer's versions of I2S. Unfortunately, I have not had an I2S capable DAC here since I acquired the Singxer. I wish I had it at the same time I had the Tambaqui here because I heard from a dealer that the Tambaqui sounds best through the I2S input, at least in that dealer's opinion. |
I find it extremely curious Mojo doesn't provide I2S input. On one hand I understand optimizing usb inputs as seems to be de facto output on most streamers. On the other, why do the extra conversion vs. native I2S path in dacs?
Recently I purchased Denafrips Gaia in order to compare I2S vs usb in various dacs. With my Laiv Harmony I2S via Gaia was far superior to usb. Now its fair to say, based on descriptors, usb implementation in Mystique superior to Harmony, so difficult to extrapolate here.
A fairer comparison of I2S vs usb will be with Musetec 006 which has more greatly optimized usb vs the Harmony, something along lines of Mojo. While I understand this is only a single aspect of usb implementation, both Harmony and Mojo use femto clock, Gaia has superior OXCO clock, I believe large part of improved sound quality I"m getting with Harmony slaved to Gaia clock is due to the improved clocking. Seems to me Mojo should at least offer I2S, easy to implement as its native path, doesn't need all the usb complexity. In any case, I'll be comparing better usb in Musetec vs I2S in coming weeks.
Keep in mind I have very similar usb implementation as @mitch2 as I also use full Sonore optical conversion, in other words OpticalRendu is the streamer with usb out, usb optimized in both our setups. |
I believe Benjamin has spent quite a bit of effort on the quality of the USB input in his DACs and especially since his newer, Mystique Y DAC offers only a USB input. In my case of owning five different Mystique DACs, I heard pretty much the same thing as what you stated, that there just isn't much difference between the inputs except that the "USB might be slightly darker". However, I have never had to utilize different drivers since my servers and streamers have all been Linux based. |
I'm using the most current USB driver. For Windows it doesn't show up as Mystique but works just fine. I've also tried an older driver which sounded the same so I reverted back figuring they must have a newer version for a reason. Not a lot of differences between USB AES and SPIDF that I can tell. USB might be slightly darker but I feel that could be more about the different sources PC vs PI2AES than the inputs |
@zmann007 - you are correct about the XMOS receiver chip, although JLsounds is apparently still involved wrt drivers for Windows. I used to see JLsounds come up when I opened mysonicorbiter but since I now run the USB into a DDC and then use S/PDIF or AES/EBU into my DACs, I don't see that anymore. If important to @debjit_g then I suggest he emails Benjamin with any questions. This below is from the X owner's manual and seems consistent with other information on the website. USB Input Our USB input uses a high-performance XMOS receiver chip, is galvanically isolated, asynchronous, and has ultralow-noise femto clocking. To completely isolate the digital and analog power supplies on the Mystique X our USB input module has it’s own secondary on the power transformer, it’s own Silicon Carbide zero-recovery Schottky diode rectification, and uses two Belleson SPX ultralow-noise ultrahigh-dynamic discrete regulators, one for input and one for output. Always power up the Mystique X before booting up your music server or streamer. Unlike many DACs, the Mystique X uses no dirty USB buss power. For this reason the Mystique X must be powered on before booting any music server or streamer so that the XMOS USB receiver chip is powered on and can be recognized. Because of the 100% isolation and uncompromising performance of the power supplies and the ultralow-noise femto clocking used in our Mystique X, the USB input module performs better than most USB reclockers and regenerators. According to our customers, most of these “magic” USB boxes will degrade rather than improve performance. Drivers for the USB input module are included in Apple OS X and Linux. If your server or streamer is Windows based the driver must be downloaded: http://jlsounds.com/drivers.html Our USB input module will show up in your player software as “Mystique.” In player software that works with video as well as audio there will be more than one option with the name “Mystique.” Select the option for “Front Speakers.” USB Lift We include a USB Lift on the rear of Mystique X which removes 100% of the parasitic power supply drain from the USB input module and removes all internal clocking noise from inside of the chassis. When facing the rear of the chassis, slide the switch to the right to lift USB. One reason many companies recommend single-ended RCA coaxial AES or balanced XLRAES digital inputs is that they isolate DACs from computer and clocking noise.
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@debjit_g -Below is a quote from this review article.
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@mitch2 phenomenal insight into these DACs. Appreciate your effort. Anyone using the Mojo Mystique know what USB receiver it uses ? I run an optimized Windows platform on my diy server and need Windows driver. Mojo mentions to download the driver from JL Sounds website but there are different versions of the driver available. Since Mojo mentions JL Sounds, it must be using the USB to I2S bridge internally which is an excellent USB receiver used in Lampizator DACs I used to own at some point. Many DAC designers optimizes one input over the other - some sounds better over AES/SPDIF, while others take a great deal of effort and care in designing a better USB input with high speed isolators, separate low jitter clocks, etc. I think I read somewhere before that Mojo prefers AES/SPDIF input over USB but it would be interesting to know from actual users how the USB in Mystique compares to AES/SPDIF.
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Based on my careful reading of this extraordinary thread, I've reached out to Benjamin, and purchased a Mystique X '24. So hats off to @mitch2 for a really informative and thoughtful analysis of the top players in what can be considered the semi-affordable realm. Now the fun part: my CEC transport hooks up just fine via AES / EBU, but when attempting to override the internal DAC in my HiFi Rose 150B, the latter device refuses to recognize the new DAC. And yes, I've triple checked all the connections and selected USB out on the "in/out" selection panel; even swapped in a different cable to rule out a bad connection. Has anyone successfully overcome the Rose 150B's apparent inability to "see" the Mystique via USB? Or is my only option to pick up an RCA coax and avoid the USB connection altogether? Please do not suggest selling the Rose and picking up another streamer, as I'm pretty tapped out by this and a couple of other chunky purchases this year, and I rather like the touchscreen ease of ops on the Rose. If this is an inappropriate hijack, mods should feel free to delete. Thanks! |
Hey soux you could not be more wrong ,I help people with msay things with products I don’t own or sell ,your ignorance is apparent , if you read. The 1000s of input regarding audio, I get emails and phone calls weekly .Having owned a Audio store for over a decade and know modding well ,in 40 years in Audio systems synergy is more important then monies. I not once ever stated Denafrips was the best ,I it is a excellent product and great value ,is this wrong ? I have told many on which products maybe a good fit for their Audio system even if they don’t spent a $ Dime , just loook at my feedbacks from buyers , have a good day !! |
@audioman58 You have now become the new audiotroy with self-serving and completely shameless self promotion. |
Depending on your budget I sell my self Denafrips products ,I hear a lot of equipment to the many audio get togethers I have gone to over the past 2 years , in the $3k range the Pontus Gen 15 is not a bias it is far better built then anything in the $3k price class but $1k less it’s the Ex Venus 12 , The T+Aw200 dac is very good with a lot of tuning possibilities , as good or better then the New Denafrips Terminator 15, or Holo May KTE dac the Mojo. Sounds good $7k on up has at least some inputs , I2S inputs should be standard ,many people have nice digital transports like Esoteric, Jays Audio which allows you to play SACDs k and many people use a DDC I2S is the best soundin digital input currently, even the LTA aero which I think sounds nice with the 2 tubes missed the mark , even they agree ,the next modification will have I2S . DDC to clean the incoming signal from their computer or streamer with absolutely make a improvement , look at the Chord Dave pretty $$ expensive to most then has a ad on reclocker that is what makes it special combined together. That’s my opinion and many others , PS audio set the standard on the pin out that most cable makers are now using for I2S . |
Why don’t many these dacs put in inputs like I2S which are the current best when implemented correctly , even 75ohm inputs MIA , for many of us use DDC-Reclockers to further clean the incoming signal far better then what comes out of a computer or streamer, using Oven clocks and massive filtering with galvanic isolation which I2S is their favorite medium ,even Good Transports are now using I2S Aqua mojo, LSA Lampi. They leave it out which puts off lots of potential buyers. |
@brbrock - I both stream and play local music files. My digital front end is outlined on my virtual system page and essentially consists of playing either files recorded in FLAC and stored on a SSD inside of my sonicTransporter i9 (Gen 4) server, or music streamed from Tidal or Qobuz over Roon, with the i9 serving as Roon Core and a Sonore Signature Rendu SE Deluxe Optical as a streamer and Roon Ready player. Streamed music and and files played from my local library sound so close to each other that I have not spent time trying to discern whether I can actually and consistently hear a difference. Mojo Audio DACs are PCM based and as mentioned on their website,
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@mitch2 Do you play (stream) your music from a hard drive or do you stream from the internet. How does the Mojo DAC's sound streaming from internet from Tidal etc. compared to streaming from a hard drive? I think I read earlier in the thread that Mojo Audio is coming out with some DAC's PCM based and I am curious if those are more geared towards streaming from the internet. They also sound interesting in the fact that the power supply is external and modular and you can easily upgrade. |
Not in my system, which is posted here on Audiogon. SMc Audio solid state preamp and two SMc Audio solid state monoblocks. Another interesting article/post on that site is which provides one writer’s perspective on different categories of gear. If you look at the DAC list, you will find the Mystique EVO Pro 21 in the Holy Shit!! tier, but the X SE was apparently not listened to. It does provide a perspective on the Mojo Audio house sound, although IMO the X models move away from the "coloration" mentioned by the writer. However, OTOH, I believe what he calls "coloration" is a sonic attribute I find compelling on my EVO Pro Z, to the point where I seem to be unable to sell it an settle in with only the X SE NCZ. |
Checked out the link you provided for comparative reviews of Mojo line and noticed the reviewer, like Lavorgna, utilizes tubes in his system. I'm unfamiliar with the gear in question so it's not clear to me whether this is a SS amp + tubed pre or what but, this brings up a question: do the Mojo DACs require tube amplification to sound "natural"?
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I am tempted to try out Linear Tube Audio Aero DAC in my system since I have more than 50 different kinds of 6sn7 and variants.
Also I got favorable impression of Linear Tube Audio Aero DAC during Pacific Audiiofest 2024.
My current Dac is Chord Dave and Mscaler modified with thrree Farad LPS.
But I expect to audition Wadax Studio later this month at home.
I would like to make sure I have enough money for the above whose retail price is 41k$.
Thomas |
@rfagon - I agree with your assessment of Michael Lavorgna’s reviews of those three highly regarded DACs. I was also interested in reading his perspectives as a single reviewer listening to all three DACs in a single system. His preferences lean towards the totaldac house sound, which he describes as musical, dimensional, natural, and “startlingly present,” instead of solely looking for the best measuring, highest resolution DAC. Lavorgna uses the word “’crystalline’…to describe the sound of the KTE May DAC” and discusses how it is best paired with amplifiers that present a “softer and more dimensional sound”, and not with highly revealing/resolving amplifiers. As with the May, he advises against pairing the Tambaqui with highly resolving amplifiers such as Ayre’s EX-8 saying, “the Ayre / Mola Mola combination offered a bit too much of a good thing in terms of resolution and clarity where music could adopt a hardness that I found distracting.” Livorgna says, “The Mola Mola Tambaqui and the Holo KTE May DAC are more closely related, nearly sounding like brothers.” In addition to being resolving and displaying crystalline clarity, the Tambaqui and Holo May brothers both exhibit excellent measurements, while the totaldac house sound that he likes so much comes from a DAC that apparently doesn’t measure well. The measurements of the totaldac d1-six reviewed by ASR were so bad that Amir Majidimehr said, “I don’t think we have ever seen anything as broken as this.” This seems to bring us full circle to the adage that what measures well doesn’t necessarily sound good to everyone, and the converse about what measures poorly. IOW, regardless of how something measures, you need to listen for yourself. The Tambaqui certainly has its fans but, in a direct comparison, I preferred the sound of my Mojo Audio DACs over the Tambaqui. I respect the accuracy, power, resolution, and musicality of the Tambaqui but, to me, the Mojo DACs sound richer and more natural, which are traits I appreciate and enjoy. However, like the totaldac, the Mystique X SE also doesn’t measure that well, at least according to John Atkinson at Stereophile. I have been enjoying the Merason DAC1 MkII here, which uses a hybrid chip, but I have no idea about how it measures since I haven’t seen a review of the Merason with measurements. However, as with Michael Lavorgna and his totaldacs, I keep coming back to the sound of my two Mojo Audio DACs as being more natural, even if they are perhaps not quite as refined sounding as the Merason or as well-measuring as the Tambaqui. Here is an interesting write-up about the different DAC levels in the Mojo Audio Mystique X line, as you progress from the Mystique X, to the X SE, and then to the X SE NCZ version that I currently have here. |
@audioman58 makes an excellent point. Lavorgna favors tube amplification, so it makes sense that he might also favor a more neutral sounding DAC. Thanks for the suggestions. FYI, I grew up in the lower Hudson valley but now reside in N. CA. |
stuartk, Good background. I don't know where you live, but for decades in NY, radio station WQXR has had the classical countdown before New Years Day, starting about 1 week before, from about 8 AM to midnight. It was the top 100, but then it became the top 105 when the NY Times owner dropped WQXR, and it went public on 105.9 FM. You can now listen online. No. 1 is always Beethoven's Ninth. No 2 is either Beethoven's Fifth or Dvorak's New World Symphony. This is an excellent way to re-introduce you to the great classics. Lately, the list has included smaller scale chamber music. Small scale chamber music is my favorite, because there is only 1 player on a part compared to orchestra where there are as many as 16 players on 1st violin, 14 players on 2nd violin. I dislike the chorus effect of many players on a part, which creates sonic smear. You can appreciate more nuances if there is only 1 player on a part. Of course, there is less loudness, but in return you get more subtle varied dynamics and of course more overall detail. Enjoy. |
stuartk, Allow me to help you develop appreciation for classical music. You have great potential to enter this fabulous world, since you already appreciate its abundance of melodic and harmonic content. I'll cure you of boredom with a short 4 min example. It is the solo piano piece, Rachmaninoff Prelude in G minor, performed by one of today's top pianists, Valentina Lisitsa. Peter McGrath made a wonderful CD of her playing, titled "Virtuosa Valentina." https://youtu.be/4QB7ugJnHgs?si=qWP6Dfx-c8DX9kSN This popular piano showpiece has everything--gorgeous melody, harmony, exciting rhythm, subtle and large dynamic contrasts. The rhythm is flexible and varied to suit the changing moods. Listen particularly from 1:15 to 2:20 where she melts into a lovely melody as a respite from the strong rhythms that precede it. Note her delicate touch combined with dynamic strength in the loud passages. On youtube, listen to other performances of this piece. There is room for many interpretations according to the style and personality of each performer. For more common classical music, The familiar opening movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony illustrates the architectural complexity of the basic kernel of 4 notes everyone knows--dadada-dum. It is repeated hundreds of times by various instruments in combination at all dynamic levels and in different keys. There is an amusing recording by the famous musicologist dubbed PDQ Bach aka Peter Schikelle about this movement. PDQ plays the role of an announcer at a football game to show how the ball is repeatedly tossed around and fumbled. It is like a football game in 6 min. Beethoven was history's greatest master of building towering musical structures out of the barest essentials of notes and rhythm. It takes an education to fully appreciate anything in life. Classical music was my first language through exposure from the radio. I spoke my first words of English at age 3, but by then already knew lots of classical music. I started playing the violin at age 9, and continue to improve over 60 years later. Playing the violin in orchestras and chamber pieces has further increased my appreciation. Right now, I am bored with watching football, simply because I never took the time to learn and understand the game. Everything is an acquired taste. I hope you further discover classical music. |
Michael Lavorgna just came out with his additional review of the Linear Tube Audio Aero DAC - Part 2 Tube Rolling. Fairly short and succent (generally a good thing), he tried five different tubes, in addition to the original tubes supplied by the manufacturer, and determined he liked three of the tube pairs better than the others, with his favorite being a pair of NOS Tung-Sol JAN-12SN7GT – Round Black Plate, Oval Mica tubes. He found that the Tung-Sol tubes,
Lavorgna contrasted his favorites with the original GE’s that came with the Aero, about which he said,
Interestingly, LTA offers two levels of Ray Tubes 6SN7s, Select and Reserve, for purchase separate from the DAC. Lavorgna ended with,
I find it nice that he took the additional time to share how changing tubes can change the sound of the LTA Aero DAC. It gives the current and future owners of that DAC something to think about.
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@stuartk FYI, I'm still working with this site to fix my messaging issues. I haven't forgotten about you Sorry for the interruption... Now back to your regular programming, Best wishes, Don |
What gives, given that you’re a drummer? I dunno! I should clarify that while PRaT doesn’t trump tonality for me, it is crucial to my enjoyment. However, PRaT was never on my radar until I bought my Hegel H390. Reviewers had described how it "pushes the music along" (maybe not in those exact words, but something to that effect). I was intrigued but having never experienced this phenomenon, it remained purely conceptual. . . until I began listening with the Hegel in the system. I noticed I could not listen without drumming along on the arms of the big ol’ Mission rocker that serves as my listening chair. And that hasn’t stopped being the case. I don’t know whether PRaT enhances emotional engagement. It certainly enhances PHYSICAL engagement and I suppose it could be argued that if the body and emotions are simultaneously engaged, it makes for a more "global" sense of engagement. . . IF you are "wired" accordingly. Sounds like you are not, despite your chosen instrument. I guess this goes to show how different we can be and still be equally addicted to music. . . which is pretty cool. A common way to think about music as a universal language is its capacity to cross cultural boundaries. Another way to think about it might be its capacity to engage listeners who prioritize differing aspects. Finally, it strikes me as somewhat ironic that genres that lean very much on the rhythmic aspect, such Rap and Funk, don’t appeal to me. My only explanation is that it’s due to the relative absence of melodic and harmonic content. Yet, I’ve always loved Blues. Classical music, with its abundance of melodic and harmonic content, tends to bore me, due to the fact that its rhythms simply don’t bring my body on board. So, what do I make of these apparent contradictions? I don’t understand them any more than I understand why PRaT doesn’t factor as a high priority for you. I could say I find Jazz very appealing because it marries a strong and complex rhythmic aspect to sophisticated melodic and harmonic content. For me, it’s the best of both worlds. But I wouldn’t be content only listening to Jazz! Perhaps someday, there will be research into what makes any given individual respond more enthusiastically to one genre (or one aspect of sonics) than another. Until then, it appears to be fairly mysterious.
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I doubt that many folks go for PRaT only. Over my time pursuing the high end I ran into PRaT only systems, and was shockingly moved… but kept going because while they were incredibly emotionally involving… but they had wacko tonal balance and and or the absence of detail. But I also found details and slam are about the easiest thing to get in a system… then tonal balance and imaging. But if you get these without PRaT… you end up with a great sounding system without soul… one that will not emotional involve the listener. If I were to do it over again… I would follow PRaT as an absolute requirement and midrange bloom with good tonal balance and then look for better detail and more slam. I think I would have had more enjoyable systems along the way. But I had to learn and evolve and honestly PRaT was the last parameter I learned to hear / identify. Then it all fell into place. Now I have it all great PRaT, tonal balance, detail, imaging and nuanced bass. I am sure I would have got here one way or another… I guess I am just happy I did.
One of my friends that I helped assemble a great system over the last few years sent me a message last week. It said that he is not an outwardly emotional guy (I agree). But he was brought to tears several times listening to a song. That had never happened to him before. I am really happy to hear this, because it was the great PRaT in his system that did it. |
@mitch2 , Thank you for your thorough and informative efforts. I also compared 6 dacs, but it was 5 years ago. The Benchmark DAC3 was a contender but I ended up choosing the Mojo Mystique v.3. I later traded it in for my current dac, the Mojo EVO B4B. I have been very pleased with the B4B, but your thread has given me a roadmap should I ever feel the urge to upgrade. Your description of the Benchmark DAC3 and the house sound of the Mojo dacs are similar to what I have experienced. Having owned 2 dacs that John Atkinson owns, and which he rates as class A+, and having also owned 2 Mojo dacs, all I can say is that my listening tastes are very different than his. It pays to listen for yourself to discover the type of sound you like best. |
@stuartk +1 I know some people who are big into PRaT and I confess I just don’t get it. Give me tonality and a good 3D soundstage and I’m a happy camper, so this toe-tapping PRaT thing is just totally lost on me if someone here can actually explain it. And here’s the thing — I’m a drummer so if anyone should be sensitive to PRaT I’d think it’d be me so I think it’s just something else maybe I’m just not sensitive to that others perceive. What gives??? |
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, there's a lot more to satisfying sonics than PRaT. For example, I've found DACs can vary significantly in terms of tonality, which is a very high priority in my case.
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Some of these comparison posts catch my eye and peak my interest enough to read a few of the posts. My take away in the end is all that is accomplished a lot of the time is a bleeding corpse lying on the operating room with no definitive cause of death… In my case I find myself using the ole adage “if you find yourself tapping your foot and bobbing your head to the tune,” your ahead of the game and chances are your DAC is performing well enough to make you happy. Toe tapping provided by, Denafrips Pontus II with most recent upgraded board and RME ADI-2-Pro. A side note, my newly acquired Sound Artist LS3’s (desktop setup) are pretty damn impressive, glad I took the risk.. |
I added a eithernet to optical to eithernet to my streamer a year or two ago, but the last couple of meters is still Cat8 cable. I have upgraded most of my system since I put the optical gap in. After I’m done A/B ing a couple of USB cables ( a Silversonic Mirage USB with a Clarus Crimson USB.). I’ll pull the optical out and see if I can hear anything different. |
@mitch2 "Interesting that you were able to change the sound of the Aero with different tubes.I believe Michael Lavorgna at Twittering Machines was planning to post a Part 2 to his Aero review after trying some tube rolling."
I'd find it interesting if Michael doesn't have different takes on the Aero based upon various tubes given they generally all sound different to one extent or another. I have a Modwright Elysee DAC and tube changes are apparent in it and no different than in my tube preamp or 3 tube integrated amps. |
@no_regrets - Yes, I wrote:
That comment is part summation and part paraphrasing from notes I took and emails I traded with Benjamin regarding my impressions from last year of my EVO Pro vs. the X SE that I originally owned, and I believe it is accurate. I did not have the original X SE here at the time of my recent six DAC comparison, but I do still have my listening notes and emails with Benjamin. I was pretty honest with him at that time. Benjamin calls the EVO Pro "warmer" than the X SE. We may be saying similar things while using different words. Here is an exact quote that I wrote to Benjamin when I decided to sell that original X SE:
What I can say now is that the X SE NCZ that I currently own seems to be a closer call against the EVO Pro than both my recollection and notes/emails would indicate from my initial comparison between my EVO Pro and the non-NCZ Mystique X SE DAC. That may be because the Mystique X SE NCZ is a little smoother and richer sounding than the oringinal X SE DAC I owned, it may be that there was an issue of some sort with the original X SE DAC, it could be that my listening preferences have changed a little, or it could be a combination of those things. I still really like the sound of the Mystique EVO Pro that I have here and I find it to be everything I wrote in my write-up in this thread. I believe Benjamin is right and that the X SE is probably objectively a better DAC from the standpoints of resolution, drive, and low noise, but I am still drawn to the engagement I perceive from my EVO Pro that has AD1862NZ chips. Sorry, but I just don’t have a more definitive answer. I like them both, they are both similar and both sound good, and it is just about a draw wrt which I like better. Regarding your power question, I am fortunate to live in a neighborhood with all in-ground electrical lines, although there are above-ground transmission lines feeding the neighborhood. It is not an old house so I have a 200 or 225 amp service, and run 3, 20-amp dedicated lines to my music room using 10 awg Romex. The amps get a line, the preamp and volume control get a line, and the streamer, DDC, and DACs get a line that first feeds an Isoclean 60A power conditioner. PCs to the digital stuff are all shielded. The network gear also has its own dedicated 20A line (a fourth line). Since we are not in what I would call a "city environment" and are not close to commercial/industrial entities, I doubt we have the fluctuations you speak of, and I haven’t noticed anything leading to different types of sound at different times of the day. Internet seems adequate also, and is consistently somewhere between 300-400 Mbps. |
Thank you so much for the immense undertaking that you endured with this Six Dac comparison. I think you did an amazing job, better than many professional reviewers, imho. I truly appreciate all of the time, energy and resources you put into this endeavor. I have two questions for you... 1. In you post on 10/05/2024 you had said "...I recall a slightly dryer presentation from the non-NCZ version, that I do not perceive with the X SE NCZ or with the EVO Pro." Would you be willing to share a little more as to what you mean by a slightly dryer presentation ? 2. Also, another question if you don't mind. I have found that some audio equipment "sounds" better when played later in the evening when there isn't typically more demand on our power grids that ends up polluting the AC signal coming out of the wall socket. Have you ever experienced that? Do you feel the Mojo dacs are sensitive to the quality of the AC power coming out of the wall? Do the Mojo's sound any different when playing during the day vs later in the evening? Thanks again Mitch for your valuable contributions to this forum! Best wishes, Don
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@mitch2 Wow that is an amazing streaming set up…can only dream. I found adding optical, a quality switch and network streamer really made a difference. I can’t justify top notch but I still came away with a nice set up at a modest price. I have thought about switching out my streamer for an Optical Redu Deluxe but not sure what improvement if any would be gained🤔. Set up: Mesh Router-FMC-Optical-FMC-EtherRegen w/clock-Stack SmoothLan-Bricasti M5-Mojo DAC. Also use a Sonic Transporter i5 as roon core in separate room and LPS’s on all. The Mojo DAC really made it! |
