Should listings include the age of the item?

Offbeat!

Well Wolfie, I liked the Sgt. Garcia character in the Zorro original TV series, and Wayne Garcia does ok reviews for his magazine, so you're ok in my book! I appreciate your sometimes offbeat sense of humor as well.

For the record I am not a merely a Wolf, I am a Garcia. And the good news in "flipophelia" (has that one been used yet?) is that the reasonably careful buyer can put together an amazing sounding rig relatively VERY inexpensively using review/opinion vetted stuff.

Part of this game (the buying and selling part) involves knowing things about certain components, like years corresponding to serial numbers, or the use of certain parts (distinguished, say, by color) which may also indicate superior or inferior functionality.

Knowing these things can definitely contribute to bargaining on either side, and it's also kind of fun. Why is nobody touching that great amp? Why are the bids so high for that preamp? Well, take a look at the serial #...or the circuit board, to the extent that you can see it through the grill...See? Fun!

And nobody gets ripped off, unless you deliberately conceal important specs, and you may get a couple of victims that way, but on a site like this, you probably won't get too many. I hope.

Part of this game (the buying and selling part) involves knowing things about certain components, like years corresponding to serial numbers, or the use of certain parts (distinguished, say, by color) which may also indicate superior or inferior functionality.

Knowing these things can definitely contribute to bargaining on either side, and it's also kind of fun. Why is nobody touching that great amp? Why are the bids so high for that preamp? Well, take a look at the serial #...or the circuit board, to the extent that you can see it through the grill...See? Fun!

And nobody gets ripped off, unless you deliberately conceal important specs, and you may get a couple of victims that way, but on a site like this, you probably won't get too many. I hope.

Since we are all giving what 'we think'. This is what I think. I think Buconero117 is close to right, just a little to generous to the seller. Take that you flagrant flippers and flappers. I usually don't care about the color of the item but sometimes I would like to know what some of these people are smoking or drinking or what planet they came from or what dimension they are in. So we get this-'It looks perfect, no swirl marks, so I rate it's sound quality a 10 out of 10. The reason I marked it down 5% from 10% over list price. Hurry and get this it will be a fast mover.'

In principal, I have nothing against "flippers" provided they respect and practice the ethical guidelines of the AG community. I try to exercise a lot of care in ensuring that a buyer is going to get what he wants. If someone just wants to flip, it makes things a lot easier for me. I don't need to worry about the piece being a good fit.

Most wolves are an endangered species, so being a flippant wolf isn't the wisest choice, lol.

I don't think age should be listed or it matters. If shown easily you are giving buyers another bit of ammo to lowball you. To me age is a bit of factor but what if an item is old but sparingly used or then vice versa? It is only a couple of years old but heavily used? What then?

I believe there's a facility to ask sellers questions so if you want to know the age, color of their hair ... just ask.

IMO, "flippers" add liquidlity to the market so it's a good thing.

Flippadelic!

Wolf,

Your answer is flippant. And I guess that Audiogon provides what could be termed a "flipitage" marketplace.

Yeah, it would be nice to list the age. But if it's not listed, just ask. Easy, no?

I prefer ads that list MSRP.

I think it is permissible to list *current* MSRP. In fact, I think it is most useful to the buyer, since what they would have to pay new -- today -- is a salient consideration in figuring what the used piece is worth to them. If the buyer is not a time traveler, MSRP at time of sale is of little interest, unless the buyer is worried about the seller making out too well, which seems to me irrelevant to the fairness of the price. (Would it matter to you if the seller got the piece as a gift, so the deal was "pure profit" for them? If so, why?)

As a buyer, I've tended shoot for 50-60% of current MSRP for a clean, desirable, piece of electronics, and find one can often do better than that for speakers (esp. those which are a PITA to ship). My sense is that the current market is pretty soft, and the buyer can often do better than my benchmark.

One wrinkle is that the supply chain for some products (eg, PS Audio, Gallo) wildly undercuts MSRP. Here, I guess the buyer should beware, and ascertain "street price" in calculating their offer.

John

I think we should call these people "flippists" and the items they sell is "flippage." And further, this is nothing to be flippant about lest I flip out or get flipped off. Also, I think Bill is risking becoming an "unpure hobbiest" or "quasi audiophile" and either condition could be difficult to diagnose and/or treat.

Elizabeth,

I'm not sure that I understand your derisive tone with regard to your comment about "flippers". I buy, restore and sell classic turntables, I am often offered items in trade for turntables or other gear, or if I decide to sell a piece of gear when I acquire another piece of gear; do these activities qualify me as a "flipper"?

I have no problem with your comments, but this seems a strange place to post this particular rant. Audiogon is, primarily, a marketplace for the buying and selling of used gear. Hence we are all "flippers", or at least we empower and encourage flipping through our forum discussions.

Bill

Who are so-called "flippers" harming? Are "they" inflating prices or somehow hoarding rare gear? No, due to readily available market info they can't. "They" do however provide a "feel good" benefit to Serious Audiophiles who are insecure enough to need to invent a less worthy sub group of "people who often sell things to other people and maybe make money from the transaction." The need to establish one's self as a "Taste Meister" based on hanging on to your precious hifi because you like it seems silly...I've owned certain vintage guitars or amps for 40 years or more, or newer hifi things I found didn't suit my tastes, and from time to time wanted to move a few on to somebody else to fund something different for myself...some things have surprising "market based" increased value, and man did those guitars become pricey! YEAH. However, the new owner is likely happy happy happy. Nothing is sacred and the "Flippers" keep the FREE market supplied with things...although my taste and hands-on musical skills do actually make MY gear opinions Extremely Important...so there's that. With so many variables in used hifi gear market there is no specific or even general "bottom" to be falling out.

This is a flipper, get yer facts straight!

Elizabeth, just to be clear, you think the only people here are original owners or flippers? I'd have to disagree.

The amp I currently own is 19 years old, I bought it used, not from the original owner. My preamp is around 7 years old, I bought it used, not from it's original owner. The same can also be said for my speakers and turntable. I am not a flipper, I have owned this gear for over a year. I am not the original owner, nor did I buy used from the original owner. I hardly believe that I am in the minority here on Audiogon.

I can try my best to approximate the age of gear I posess, some I can ID by the serial number. Sometimes however, one just does not know how old a piece of gear is. If I do not know the age of an item, does that mean that I can not sell it? I think not, that's just illogical.

I do agree that there are much fewer pure hobbyists here today than there were years ago, but economic turmoils have been reflected in all facets of our society, not simply on Audiogon. Buyer Beware is more imporatant now than ever before, but I suspect it will only get worse until the bottom finally falls out.

Member "Buconero117" responded to a Blue Book question (Newbie question - Equipment with good resale value) as follows with emphasis added that he felt the Blue Book values are overstated:

"For the major brands the general rule on fair used value, assuming a fully functioning unit that is less then ten years old, is 80% of the original MSRP (sales tax excluded) less 40%. This translates to $480 on a MSRP of $1,000. Once the unit is over ten years old, every year older would add an additional 5% discount, per year."

The above mentioned "80%" goes along with what member "Glenhifi" says about "off list price", and a strick reading would suggest the MSRP at the time of purchase should be used to calculation the value.

What if the age of the item is unknown? Granted, many model numbers change every 2-3 years so you can somewhat figure it out, but many do not. I have bought used gear where the seller did not know how old it was, how am I to know how old it is then when I sell it?

As for your #2 concern, when posting an ad, the Audiogon system ask that you post a MSRP price (if you know it). They do not ask that you post the price that you actually paid for the item. It is up to the buyer to understand the market.

Condition of the unit and use may be much more telling than the age. Buyer should always ask as many questions that may be of concern. Seller should always be ready to answer any and all questions or clarify particulars of a item up for sale.

Pricing should be determined by market value at time of sale. As seller may or may not gotten a "good deal when they made the purchase. How be it rare, some products go up in value. Listing the original MSRP if known at least provides some base value. I often assume original sale was 10 to 20 off list price. That is the best deal most are likely to have gotten. Spending a few dollars to obtain blue book value or other research keeps one from paying too much.

I typically include that info and if I do not the question can always be asked once an interest is shown by a prospect.

Did you experience a problem with this?