Should I keep the Turntable or sell it?

@johntoye Agreed. If I wasn’t the OP, I would’ve unsubscribed from the thread long ago. At least I am getting a variety of turntables to research, and helping information from most members on here.

And I will add that my turntable is a JVC VL8 from the early 70s. It was top of the line then, and sounds fantastic now. Far better than the $1k ProJect RM5SE that I had before. And it’s a belt drive.  I have an AT ART9 on it and I will put this system up against anything.  Even the venerable Technics DD. 

You should check out the SOTA Comet V. Real nice belt drive table!
 https://sotaturntables.com/products/comet-v/

Bluetooth, usb, phono preamp and perhaps switching power supply all inside a turntable is not pleasant for the interferences that arise at high frequencies and for the weak signals that a cartridge emits ... all is junk, these products are not products for vinyl lovers; it would be like going to the nightclub with mom.  :(

@yogiboy another member posted about the SOTA... they look beautiful, and I’m sure with the Ortofon Blue it would sound really good. Upgrade to a Bronze or Black, and I’m sure it would sound as amazing as it looks. It’s just about $500-$1000 out of my current budget. 

Fun question for you... if you had to pick one thing on a turntable that is the most important, would you say it was the cart? Assuming you aren’t trying to put a twin turbo on a Toyota Tercel, would a mid-level table like a Music Hall 5.3 do well with an Ortofon Black for example?

@best-groove what budget would you say is the minimum for a table/cart to not be “clubbin with Mamma” in your opinion?

I would consider the Marantz TT 15S1 or a ClearAudio Concept.  Both are in the price range (if you find a used one), and very good performers. Also, have you tried to trade in the TT?  A place like Needle Doctor may take it in trade, since it's new in the box, and give you a good trade value.

SOTA has a long history, so you can often find great deals on used older models if you’re patient and willing to take on a bit of risk. I got started myself with a SOTA Star III sold locally on consignment - it was an AMAZING way to start. I think SOTA even sells refurbished units if you call them.

Between the Clearaudio-built Marantz and the Concept, I’d chose the Concept no question. It’s a proven winner (especially with a Satisfy arm upgrade instead of the magnetic bearing Concept arm) and it’s been built with Clearaudio’s more modern designs & tech. The Marantz was designed back in the days of their prior lineup, before the Concept and Innovation models.

As for the "most important part". That’s a tough one. I’d say once you have a reasonably good deck, the matching between cartridge and arm is most important. MC cartridges will tend to need heavier arms. Then phono stage, and its proper matching to your chosen arm, is also crucial. And depending on your room and table, you may need to spend some serious effort and/or money isolating the table. The SOTA models from the Sapphire on up take care of that for you (mostly) with the built-in suspensions. The Clearaudio models will not help you here - you’ll have to ensure they’re properly isolated.

I own both a SOTA and a Clearaudio. 

@soundermn I definitely am considering a Marantz TT-15S1 because of the Clearaudio Virtuoso cat. I have heard really good things about both, but not actually listened either. My plan originally was to sell both the Alva and the Pro-Ject, which ideally would give me enough for a $1500 table with cart.

@mulveling The Clearaudio Concept would be ideal, but it starts at $1600 and the Marantz using a higher end cart. This is the main reason for the "most important part" question about a table. It seems the cart option is generally what pushes the table price much higher. Looking at those two tables and what they come with standard, it seems the Marants with a $950 Clearaudio Virtuoso MM cart ($1499 total) is a much better deal than a Clearaudio Concept with only the $250 Concept MM ($1600 total). With these two models in mind, would you say the Concept with the Concept MM cart is better than the Marantz with Virtuoso MM? It would seem that two carts made by the same company, but one is $700 more, would sound much better musically, so the cart would have a much greater impact on listening experience. That would be my hypothesis, but again, I haven’t listened to either tables yet.

+1 mulveling
"I’d say once you have a reasonably good deck, the matching between cartridge and arm is most important."
This SOTA Moonbeam IV with the REGA S220 arm might be worth looking into. I have never owned an Orotfon cartridge so I can't comment on it!
https://sotaturntables.com/products/moonbeam-iv/

what budget would you say is the minimum for a table/cart to not be “clubbin with Mamma” in your opinion?

@bignamehere

It is not a question of budget but of logic; if you think usb, bluetooth are necessary, it’s okay to get them but not inside a turntable for problems that could trigger.
Then any turntable without these gadgets is fine ... I also vote for Techncs 1200 G or GR if I want to buy new even if the aesthetic does not make me crazy but it is a well designed and solid turntable.

OP
One way you could also look at the price difference is that you are getting more tt for your money with the Clearaudio.
You can always upgrade the cart later.
It would indicate to myself that the Marantz could be less of a table and it's the cart that is the bigger star there.

As stated the Clearaudio is a more modern design.

I know which way my money would be going here.....

Yeah, definitely what uberwaltz just said.

The leeway in my prior statement is in what constitutes a "reasonably good deck". I've heard the Concept (even with the cheap Concept MM), and I think that table just makes the cut. I'm not so sure about anything else in that price range bundled with an arm & cart as a package. I'm not so sure about the Marantz model - and if it were my money I'd definitely go with the Concept over it. Clearaudio (mostly) nailed it with their present lineup, which you can see given their popularity and longevity. 

I'd also be giving the new Technics decks a look, though I have no experience with them. I think they're pretty interesting. 

Cartridges are wear items, and they can be easily destroyed with a simple accident. I say go a bit further with the table/arm/phono before you experiment with more exotic cartridges. THEN the arm/cart quality & matching will absolutely be the most key determinant to your resultant sound quality, you may wish to explore MC cartridges, etc. 

@best-groove

...it’s okay to get them but not inside a turntable for problems that could trigger.

Wait, I am not following then. If you are saying having a DAC, Bluetooth, Phono Stage (it doesn’t have USB, btw) all in a system, then what is the difference if they are insulated inside of the TT VS sitting beside the TT? Assuming they are good quality (CA has made great products for 50 years), why would it matter if they are inside the unit? Are you talking about RFI, because unless I put them in another room, there will still be interference, and I trust a Cambridge Audio engineer to build and place these components within a system, than I would ME placing them in various parts of a room. Maybe I just don’t understand your POV, though.

(Rant about audiophilia coming)
One thing that I find fascinating, is that audiophiles hate the idea of multiple components inside a singularly engineer product, and think they can always "al a carte" their own systems better then a company doing this stuff for 50 years. KEF LS50 Wireless speakers are another example... many audiophiles that I have conversed with hate the idea of not being able to match their DAC and amp with their passive speakers, and I understand personal preference, but if a technology that is so great and award winning (KEF LS50) why not trust the same engineers to pair the right DAC and amp? I feel like ego tends to get in the way of things sometimes, and non-experts believe they know better than the folks they pay huge sums of money to for the individual components.
(Thanks for the therapy)

So my personal hypothesis is... A company who has been in the business for decades and who partners with other companies who deliver great components, is very likely to be capable of engineering and compiling a turntable, arm, and cart (package) that is specifically engineered to sound great together. Isn’t this exactly what Apple did and continues to do very successfully with the iPhone? It is an all in one solution, built to be completely integrated and services it’s own ecosystem of applications. Luckily and hopefully, I will have years to test this hypothesis and see if I can prove it null.

I appreciate the information everyone!

@bignamehere

Sorry I explained myself wrongly; what I wanted to say is that bluetooth or usb or power supply switching do not have to coexist in a TT but not even attached or close to a stereo system that wants to be low, mid or hi-end; these features may be fine for multiroom systems or where it doesn’t matter to listen to music in the best way. IHMO

@best-groove I think I’m following... maybe. No, those components don’t need to be located in a system at all. It seems what Cambridge Audio is predicating is that the future of hi-fi analog is digital, or more than there is a larger market for those wanting all-in-one systems that are mid-range in quality from a hi-fi perspective.

if I had the money, sure I’d just buy all separate components and place them far away from the table as possible. I would also probably buy different components though for analog and digital and have two separate systems. Not in my budget though, unfortunately.

Gat a ClearAudio Concept.  Cannot beat it at that price:

https://www.amazon.com/Clearaudio-Concept-Turntable-Pre-Mounted-Cartridge/dp/B005ORBFI0

Or the Audio Technica LP7 at about $800.  

Both will beat the Rega hands down at that price point.

Or even a second hand Linn Sondek from ebay.....

Sell it and get the Rega. Put an Ortofon 2M Black in there and you will be in heaven. The business about direct drive being better is nonsense. The last thing you want under a sensitive cartridge is all that electromagnetic stuff. Direct drive is just another example of the Japanese making a relatively simple issue as complicated as possible. How many buttons on that remote do you actually use??  

@mijostyn I recently read some place that Rega does not recommend using Ortofon Bronze or Black on their tonearms, and I can't recall why. Any ideas why?

I think it's because the advanced stylus profiles are sensitive to VTA which on the Rega is difficult.

@noromance so setting the vertical alignment of the stylus is more "difficult" on a Rega, is what you are saying? 

Yes. There’s no vertical adjustment on the Rega tonearms. I understand shims can be used to lift up the unit but... like this aftermarket device. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMAYgKMSJ6Y

Rega sell a 2mm spacer for course adjustments.
https://www.amazon.com/3-Point-Required-Arm-Height-Non-Rega-Cartridge/dp/B074VG48MP

Bignamehere. I had not heard that. The arm has a good effective mass for that cartridge and Ortofon is very accurate with their cartridges so all you have to do is get the mounting surface parallel to the record which you can do using paper shims under the front or back of the cartridge. But I agree it is a pain they do not offer VTA adjustment. The arm is otherwise excellent.  

noromance2  it is much easier to work at the cartridge end then at the bearing end. Establishing the proper angle might just require a little paper or a matchbook cover. 

Wow, just how fast can a simple question deteriorate? Both DD and Belt drive have their good and mediocre sides. If you want DD go get the one you can afford if your a disc jock if not put your money where your ears tell you to put it. Belt drives can and do outperform DD so don't play the hype. I went from DD to belt and have no regrets but do wonder when the belt will break, stretch etc. Hasn't happened yet.
Don't buy into the hype, buy what your own ears tell you.

@mijostyn Shims at the cartridge end will only work in one direction and paper/card will compromise the integrity of the cartridge/headshell coupling.

Well; I don't know how well the OP's question was addressed, but this has been the most entertaining, thread I've read on Audiogon in years, with all the back and forth debate and subtle character assassinations.

@boofer lol... yes, it was quite the train wreck at first, but many folks on here offered great ideas and information. I’ve decided to try and trade in my two units for either a Marantz TT-15S1 or a Rega P3 with Exact cart. The Music Hall 7.3 came in third place for my preferences. I feel like there has been a number of comparisons on the web with these two units, and it comes down to which audio dealer will make me the best trade offer for one of those tables.

In the end, I know I will be happy with either of those two tables. 

But of those two options, which one would you personally go with?

Still looking for advice?
It doesn't have to be direct drive to sound good.
Settle with Technics or go right the first time & go VPI

I definitely am considering a Marantz TT-15S1 because of the Clearaudio Virtuoso cat. I have heard really good things about both, but not actually listened either. My plan originally was to sell both the Alva and the Pro-Ject, which ideally would give me enough for a $1500 table with cart.

I had a Marantz TT-15S.  I liked its minimalism.  Forum members (different forum) extolled the virtues of a SL1200 and I gave into that.  Looking back from a distance it was a no-brainer.  A Direct Drive is so much fuller.  (You only have to look at the chink in the belt on the Marantz) The ease of use too, is a benefit of the Technics.  I was very happy with it and did many upgrades.  They look so cool too and I actually put one in my office (Property Lawyer) and it makes a great  centerpiece!  

As a general remark though I would say that vinyl is fun but to get good sound - and you really can get good sound - you have to invest time or dosh.  My HI-Fi story is that I have spread myself a bit thin on sources (PC, TT, Disc Spinner).  Have one good source and save dosh that can go to amp or speakers.

“Contest winner?” Could anything possibly sound more like a shill? Have the dealers/owners just stopped trying?  Who ever wins a “contest” that isn't CHOSEN to win the “contest?” No one.
So I say, to help the common man, get the Rega! Even though I’m a VPI guy, myself... This site could rapidly devolve into a grifter’s paradise with posts like these! 

OP to do a true comparison of your rig to another one it is necessary to get the same cartridge on both tables and then compare the same music between the two.
To be honest I agree with the folks who have recommended you wait a bit before spending a bunch of cash. 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what any of us tells you.  If you are satisfied with the sound you are getting then your system is made of Gold. 

Have fun with the hobby.

My Linn LP12 is for sale on eBay if you are looking for a nice belt drive unit.  

I have a really good system; Quad ESL 2912s, mono-block amps, a couple of fancy pre-amps etc.  With the exception of a few very special records (direct to disk etc)  my record playing is nearing non-existent. I like the records for nostalgia value and for music that is not available anywhere else.  I have digitized many of my records and I really can't hear a difference; and I wanted to hear a difference.  

I'm no turntable expert, but I like Rega turntables. I was considering one myself and was comparing the RP3 to the MOFI Studio Deck. I wound up getting the MOFI Ultra Deck + M which was more expensive, but I really like it, except for the cover which has to be removed when listening and is tricky to put back on because of the plastic hinges. The Studio Deck is within your budget. Of course it is only a belt drive without wifi or anything else. Tubes are great, but can be more maintenance. Also, purchasing good tubes can be expensive. I use some current production tubes which are cheap, but use NOS tubes in certain places where they blow away the sound of the new production tubes. Good luck.

" No offense, but whenever someone has such a high loyalty for one company and downplays all other brands and even downplays huge advances in technologies to be trivial, I have to take the advice with a big grain of salt."

That might be the most sensible thing I've read on Agon...

@flynnrd You clearly have not read thru this thread, or you would know I am certainly not a "shill" for Cambridge Audio or the dealer. Maybe a shill for Rega or Marantz, but certainly not the product for which I won in the contest. I have also stated in this thread that I have the Alva listed to sell on the Audiogon marketplace, and on reverb, which seems to do the opposite of promoting a positive image about a product. It is a great turntable, but just not what I am looking for with my current setup. Also, think about the people on this forum... do you really believe they would be swayed to gain interest and purchase a product from simply reading a forum post about selling the dang product?? SMH.

@stevencason I am not trying to do a comparison of tables, because I don’t plan on using a specific cart. Because these mid-level tables generally are sold as a specific "package", that is what I am inquiring about, the entire package. Some people here and on other forums have owned or at least listened to both the Rega P3 with Exact and the Marantz TT-15S1 and can provide helpful details about their listening experience. Waiting and listening is an option that I have explored, but in the end, I know I want a different listening experience that doesn’t require component workarounds. Tubes are a different story though. Also, the point of selling or trading the two tables is so that I am NOT shelling out a ton of cash.

@davidclarke I will take a look on ebay.

@robert53 I don’t mind the expense of buying tubes over time, because that is like buying and collecting nice bottles of wine. You can experiment and play with tube rolling, so I have learned. And the price of tubes seems to be much cheaper than swapping/upgrading carts, from what I can tell. And yeah, when I feel like splurging, I might look into the tubes from the 50’s and 60’s. Gotta roll these tables first. :)

+1200 For the Technics GR suggestions.

@robelvick direct drive is an inferior technology. 

Wait for it..... 

+1200 For the Technics GR suggestions.

I'm not on the Audiogon Forum much.  I get a weekly email titled Weekly Recap which has some of the top discussions of the past week, I guess.

I was very intrigued by this thread because I've had a Bluenote Bellavista Signature turntable for about ten years now.  

I've replaced the U3 tonearm with a suped-up Rega RB300.  Incognito wiring, Pete Riggle VTA on-the-fly adjustment and Michell counter weight.
Don't think I can live without the on-the-fly Vta anymore.  I found the unipivot a little to squirrely for me.

  I recently had to replace the motor because the original crapped out.  Luckily Goldnote (which Bluenote is now) had one left in their old inventory. I also got an original belt which is essentially a giant O-ring.

Anyhow, I noticed that it runs pretty much right on at 331/3 rpm but when I go to 45 rpm it runs fast.  I've tried everything to get it to run correct at both speeds. The Bluenote uses a hollow belt spindle with a threaded insert that can be screwed in or out for minor adjustments of speed (it makes the belt spindle bigger or smaller).  My thought  was that if it's right on at 331/3 rpm then when I move the belt to the 45 rpm spindle groove it should be right on or close without having to make a speed adjustment to the spindle insert.  It doesn't and won't, even if I try to adjust the speed  using the spindle insert. 

I hope I explained that well enough to understand because a lot of folks are not familiar with this turntable.

Because of this problem and not being able to rectify it I've been thinking about a new turntable and I've been a little drawn to the Technics because at this point I just want something that RUNS AT THE CORRECT SPEED.

It bothers me to no end that I know the speed is off.  Even at 33 1/3 sustained piano notes sound like they're slightly out of tune (maybe that's just my imagination?).  45 rpm just doesn't sound right at all (definitely not my imagination). 
 
I've been wavering back and forth on which way to go.  

A belt drive with speed controller or just an all-in-one DD such as the Technics. 

Remember, it has to have on-the-fly/easy VTA adjustment.  

Thanks in advance,  Nick.

P.s.  I won't jump on anyone for their suggestions even if they're a so-called "fan-boy".   Not that there's anything wrong with that.  :-)

@nicktheknife  Incorrect speed would drive me crazy too. 

The speed stability on the Technics is second to none.  VTA adjustment (on-the-fly) is the easiest I've ever used as well.  Owning numerous cartridges, that is a must - not to mention how easy it is to swap carts with a removable headshell.

I'm on my second 1200GR.  First one I gave to a buddy who wanted to upgrade from his Pro-Ject.  I did go back to a few belt drives in-between, and was never happy (VPI Aries Scout, Clearaudio Emotion CMB, and Music Hall MMF7.3).

Good luck on your search!

I understand and really admire people's enthusiasm and loyalty to their turntables, tonearms, and cartridges . . . and while everyone out of pride and self-assured knowledge, likes to think of our opinions as “golden”, the truth is that although there are brands that are notoriously bad and those that have high reputations for whatever reason, there is no one to my knowledge, who has taken every brand of turntable, tonearm, cartridge, and related equipment and tried every combination possible in order to secure the title of “the best”.

What works for one person's taste, hearing accuracy etc. does not work for another . . . pure and simple, and although debate can be healthy and good for the audio industry . . . in the end, after the heat and fumes die down and the raging tempers have cooled -- it STILL comes down to personal taste, opinion, and what you plunk your money down on as to whether you are content with your purchase . . . or ever chasing one's own proverbial tail. It is part of the “charm” of the hobby, as well as the challenge. But one thing for sure . . . there will never be an end to the solicited as well as unsolicited opinions -- but, it still comes down to taking all the hype, the ecstatics, the hyperboles, the sensationalism, and the true facts . . . sorting it out, and making your own decision. It also comes down to the buck stops here, because it is you who writes the check or uses your plastic to make the purchase -- and YOU are stuck with your decision . . . until the next time. Have fun!

Things turn out best for those who make the best out of the way things turn out.

@russmaleartist  I completely disagree with every single thing you said.  Except for the ellipsis part... I agree with ellipsis.

Robert

You are just full of the enigmatic posts tonight ... Lmao.

Another 1200 in the stable?
Why am i not surprised...lol.

@uberwaltz

One can't have too many 1200s.

I'd recommend sticking with what you have, until you learn a little more about hifi (not condencending, I am a newbie too).  I originally had a project TT which was a few hundred bucks.  To really move up a level in turntables, I'd recommend a boutique brand.  Unfortunately all of the boutique brands are fairly costly.  I have a Dr. Feickert Blackbird now which completely rocks.  It can be completely assembled and disassembled by the owner (if you are willing:) (which I've done:).

Dr. Feickert recently released a fairly affordable higher end "entry-level" table at 3500 (iirc).  I have heard it and while its not a blackbird, it is really impressive compared to other tables in this price range.  It's double your budget, but I've found the key to the rabbit hole that is HIFI is efficiency.  IOW, upgrade to (gear you have heard personally), that you like, that offers the best bang for the buck as few times as possible.

I highly recommend Feickert tables.  Chris is a really cool guy, extremely well respected by his peers in the hifi manufacturing community, and the consumers of his products are fans (atleast I am :).  He is a down to earth guy, and his tables are nearly perfect (German tables FTW!).

I agree, there are many good turntables out there. It's a tough decision.

I too am one of those who gets the weekly recap in my inbox and only come here when I see something that grabs my attention.  Wow what a lively thread and discussion here with a lot of good opinions, and even some drama to boot.  Plenty here for me to think about as I upgrade my turntable.  Thanks. 

I’m not on the Audiogon Forum much. I get a weekly email titled Weekly Recap which has some of the top discussions of the past week, I guess.

I was very intrigued by this thread because I’ve had a Bluenote Bellavista Signature turntable for about ten years now.

I’ve replaced the U3 tonearm with a suped-up Rega RB300. Incognito wiring, Pete Riggle VTA on-the-fly adjustment and Michell counter weight.
Don’t think I can live without the on-the-fly Vta anymore. I found the unipivot a little to squirrely for me.

I recently had to replace the motor because the original crapped out. Luckily Goldnote (which Bluenote is now) had one left in their old inventory. I also got an original belt which is essentially a giant O-ring.

Anyhow, I noticed that it runs pretty much right on at 331/3 rpm but when I go to 45 rpm it runs fast. I’ve tried everything to get it to run correct at both speeds. The Bluenote uses a hollow belt spindle with a threaded insert that can be screwed in or out for minor adjustments of speed (it makes the belt spindle bigger or smaller). My thought was that if it’s right on at 331/3 rpm then when I move the belt to the 45 rpm spindle groove it should be right on or close without having to make a speed adjustment to the spindle insert. It doesn’t and won’t, even if I try to adjust the speed using the spindle insert.

I hope I explained that well enough to understand because a lot of folks are not familiar with this turntable.

Because of this problem and not being able to rectify it I’ve been thinking about a new turntable and I’ve been a little drawn to the Technics because at this point I just want something that RUNS AT THE CORRECT SPEED.

It bothers me to no end that I know the speed is off. Even at 33 1/3 sustained piano notes sound like they’re slightly out of tune (maybe that’s just my imagination?). 45 rpm just doesn’t sound right at all (definitely not my imagination).

I’ve been wavering back and forth on which way to go.

A belt drive with speed controller or just an all-in-one DD such as the Technics.

Remember, it has to have on-the-fly/easy VTA adjustment.

Thanks in advance, Nick.

P.s. I won’t jump on anyone for their suggestions even if they’re a so-called "fan-boy". Not that there’s anything wrong with that. :-)

There are many belt-drive tables out there with adjustable speed that will stay locked at the set RPM. A few that come immediately to mind: Rega P8, Acoustic Signature Wow XL (and every model above), and the Gem Dandy Polytable Super12. These are just a few of the more affordable ones. Once you get into Palmer/SME/AMG territory, nearly all have adjustable pitch with some type of speed lock. You invest in a KAB SpeedStrobe and you’re good to go. My table has adjuatable pitch in 0.1% increments and according to the SpeedStrobe, it holds speed within 0.03% of perfect. The controller keeps it stored in the memory so it need not be adjusted again unless I adjust cartridge setup.

Now keep in mind that speed accuracy is a moving target, because not all laquers are cut at a perfect 33.3 or 45. From what I’ve researched, few are cut at a speed any more accurate than that of a budget turntable.