@bignamehere
Just choose what sound preference , ergonomics , features and looks that you want. Its you that lives with it , not some zealot who can,t for some reason accept his opinions are not the facts he claims. DD is not everyone's cup of tea at any price . Many tried and dumped the new technics and the vintage Japanese tables , the same way some pass on belts or idlers.
Although I like all drives and respect their individual strengths, and the way one person from the next comes at the same problems and needs differently , I still recognize and am fully aware of the weaknesses they have individually as well. What makes me quietly chuckle through all the dumping on belt drives and praise of the claimed superior DD.....in all the fervor and chosen information and stats on the best tables of old and the DD....most of the units from the east with pedigree status....had either the micro name on it or a good deal of engineering and manufacturing in it.....and they dropped the DD and focused on some only very good to excellent belt drives.....I believe any company as highly regarded as micro was and is in all things turntable, choosing belted turntables speaks volumes. They were not a cottage industry company like many see belt drives as and they sold high quality , not marketing.
If you enjoy it, it makes you want to play it and buy more records ...it's a good table for you, whatever the name brand or type of drive it has. At the end of the day....that's all that matters....some good music to remove the anxiety of the day....not obsess over it or to appease some strangers opinions. .....
All those, Rega, Linn, Micro, Project, Clearaudio, JA Michell, Basis, Sota, VPI, Oracle, SME, Avid, Brinkman, Roksan. ...(etc. etc.etc.) belt users can't all be wrong in what they chose as their preferred drive.....a little bit bigger than a cottage industry. ..
Choice is good.....
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I had a direct drive turntable for many years and decided to try a VPI Cliffwood which I love. I will eventually upgrade the cartridge. I'm not a big fan of Bluetooth sound. I briefly had a NAD integrated amp with its BluOS system and it didn't sound well at all. Anyway, best of luck!
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There's been some nice affordable suggestions here for both belt and DD turntables.
I did notice that most, especially the BD's do not have on-the-fly VTA.
Yes, they're adjustable using an allen wrench but who wants that? Once you have on-the-fly VTA there's no turning back. |
There are many theories to turntable design, but they have to be implemented correctly for good results. Many people view Rega as dinky 'tables, but they are lightweight and stripped-down, like a Formula 1 Race car. And their performance sounds that way - fast and dynamic with good timing - which appeals to many. A lot of the higher mass turntables are more like a Mercedes-Benz, which is a different kind of excellence than a race car. If you find that you like the virtues of a Rega 'table, it is hard to find those virtues in a comparably-priced high-mass 'table. The Acoustic Signature WOW series of 'tables come to mind, however.
Rega do make high-end products, but they have a certain mindset that gets a little extreme with what they will and won't compromise on their pricier 'tables. I think some things, like a felt mat, do not belong on a high-end product. But there are many aftermarket mats that are not overly costly. Because Rega 'tables are modular and among the best-selling (with a large fan base), there are many aftermarket modifications that allow one to start with an entry-level Rega and improve the performance considerably. This adds cost over time, and you can more than double the cost of a Planar 3, but some people enjoy the tweaking and incremental upgrades.
The RB300 series of arms have been one of the best-selling high-end audio products of all time. Especially during the lull in vinyl sales when it did not make sense for boutique manufacturers to invest in creating their own tonearm offerings, many turntables resorted to using a Rega arm, or offering it as an option.
The Ortofon 2M series will work fine with a Rega if you use tonearm spacers. They are a popular replacement for the Rega cartridges. In my experience, they are more detailed and refined than the Rega MMs, but not as dynamic.
You will know what you like when you hear it, whether it's a Rega or a Technics, or something else. It's like Mercedes, BMW, and Audi - they are not the same, and if you have the chance to test-drive comparable cars from all three manufacturers, you will find that one just speaks to you in a way the others don't. |
Cartridges mate with tonearms, not with turntables. You can use any cartridge you like with any turntable, so long as the tonearm is a good match to the cartridge. And the matching only starts with determining the resonant frequency. Beyond that, there is a certain black art to a synergistic matching of tonearm and cartridge. A lot of trial and error. But you'll only preceive "error" if and when you have implemented a few different tonearms with the same cartridge. You don't have to go that far to enjoy analog, but it's a fun journey if you do.
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I thought that the turn table can be found only in Smithsonian Museum. |
This site really cracks me up! Sometimes I read it just to laugh at the nasty comments people make to each other. Hilarious. We should rename it to AngryMob instead of AudioGon. |
@lewm
Cartridges mate with tonearms, not with turntables.
yeah, I don't think anyone is debating that fact, but turntables under $2K come with a choice of cart, not a choice of tonearm. Also, everyone knows you can tinker, tune, and toy with a turntable as much as you like, but your options while purchasing a sub- $2K are limited to what the manufacturer/dealer has packaged up and is selling as product. To keep with the car analogy, I can certainly buy an Audi and mod the hell out of it with turbochargers, ECU, and performance exhaust. Or I can just buy an BMW M3 that was built specifically for a certain look, feel, and function that the engineers have been working on for decades and have packaged up for me to drive and experience. They are experts in that "black art" and I trust they know what they are doing. The cost of both cars is somewhat irrelevant in this analogy, assuming they are both within reason. The point I am making is that at the $1500 price point, I have a number of options to choose from that initially come as a package, specifically "tuned" to sound the way the engineers intended. When I have the budget and time to explore more of the black arts, I might start mixing and matching. My questions related to cartridge/table are more akin to asking if a twin turbo engine(faster engine) in an Audi A5S provides a better driving experience than a single turbo engine in a BMW 540i(more refined car). This is basically the question when comparing a Marantz TT-15S1 with Virtuoso cartridge to a Clearaudio Concept or even the Rega P6 with Exact. I was lucky enough this last weekend to listen to both the Clearaudio and the Marantz side by side, and the Marantz with the $950 cart stole the show. They had a Rega P6 with Ania MC cart, but I thought that wouldn't be a fair comparison to the others AND it was listed at $2200 and out of my budget. I didn't listen to the P6, but I was able to hear the P3 with Elys cart, and it was 3rd on the list. Again, my hypothesis is that buying a package with an upgraded cart will provide a better listening experience than a better table with average cart. At least, that is what my ears told me this weekend. And if you are wondering, I drive an Alfa Romeo Guilia. It outperforms all of the competition. :) |
"I haven’t read anything about Technics yet to make me think their technology is superior to any other midrange table"
Its called the motor or drive if you will.
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@tzh21y Neat. Feel free to post a study or peer reviewed article to support the claim that direct drive is better, and I’ll read it. |
Is your Alfa direct or belt drive? |
it's size 12 driven... 13 in adidas. |
In short, this turntable Cambridge leaves home or does it stay? Lol
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I retract my Technics suggestion/recommendation. Keep what you have, you’ll be happier and that’s most important. |
@robelvick I thought long and hard about what I currently own, and neither table meets my needs. If the Alva TT had a straight Phono line out, I would definitely keep it. But I want to use my current tube phono preamp, which I can’t. I prefer tube to Solid State (I’ve tried a few SS under $500), and the Alva TT uses the Cambridge Audio Duo, which is solid state. |
@tzh21y Neat. Feel free to post a study or peer reviewed article to support the claim that direct drive is better, and I’ll read it.
You asked the question to why many believe that the Technics is better technology than other mid priced decks... I answered, it's the motor. There are many of discussions about the motor of these new decks. What more do you need to know....? Is it better than belt drive? Depends on the belt drive. Belt drive is different than direct drive I have both. I like both. I prefer the Technics 1200G. You may like belt drive better. Listen for yourself. No peer reviewed article is better than your ears. If you like belt drive better, then thats your choice and vice versa.
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@tzh21y actually, I made a statement... and that statement was in regards to experts and professionals in the industry... the engineers that design and make the equipment we buy, or even an article or video from a renowned source. I can find hundreds of fanboy posts on forums about Technics, Clearaudio, Rega, SOTA, etc being totally superior because of belt drive or direct drive motors, and here on Audiogon, I have found just that. And when I ask for opinions, the the response (from some) is because XYZ technology is “crap”, I tend to be highly skeptical. Hence the statement... "I haven’t read anything about Technics yet to make me think their technology is superior to any other midrange table".
I was implying reading industry reviews (not marketing) by renowned critics or studies/technical pieces by engineers that state direct drive is a superior technology. If that implication wasn’t clear enough, that’s my fault, but I don’t recall the context of that statement at the moment.
From the opinions on boards like this, direct drive is more consistent (but noisy) compared to belt drive (but possibly inconsistent). To be honest, I can’t say I have trained my ears enough to be able to notice either of those two issues, but I can definitely recognize tube vs solid state and better quality carts. So that is what I have chosen to focus on.
In regards to statements by many on here like “Just trust your ears.”, I think that is a ridiculous comment to make when a person is asking any question online. Clearly, if that individual had the means to order and compare the equipment in their home or could listen to all of the choices in question locally at a dealer, then they wouldn’t be asking a bunch of random folks on the internet for advice. We ask these questions to narrow down choices to a select few that we can then try to listen to in person.
Anyway, I’ve narrowed down my choices, and a Technics is not something I’m interested in. |
Anyway, I’ve narrowed down my choices, and a Technics is not something I’m interested in.
Wow ..no BD no DD maybe pulley? Garrard? he he heeee |
The one thing that I would add is that people keep saying that Belt Drive is inferior. There are vastly different implementations of belt drive. I have tried the standard rubber belts, dental floss, and now tape drive. I have found tape drive to offer the best musical attributes of both direct drive and belt drive. It’s very quiet but you have no stretchy belt speed inconsistencies.
I do own belt drive, direct drive and did on a Lenco idler drive. I find it interesting that people speak of the Lenco as if it’s superior due to its drive. I found if you looked at mine cross eyed or breathed on it the wrong way the speed would slow. I think the secret to the Lenco sound is the fact that you have a rubber idler wheel damping the platter all the time. It was the worst of three technologies speed wise, at least the example that I owned.
And I know you don’t want to hear this but if I were less of a tweaker and wanted an off-the-shelf solution I would take a hard look at technics. |
@best-groove 👍
@analogluvr I have listened to the following tables on at least 2 occasions:
Direct Drive:
1. Higher end Technics - friend’s dad’s table
2. Cambridge Audio Alva TT - my own Turntable
Belt Drive
1. Pro-Ject Carbon Debut (Ortofon Blue 2M) - my table
2. Marantz TT-15S1 - local shop
3. Clearaudio Concept MM - local shop
4. Rega P3 w/ Elys - local shop
5 Rega P6 - friend’s table
If I were to rank them in preference for the sound I appreciate, it would probably be this:
1. Marantz TT-15S1
2. Clearaudio Concept
3. Rega P6 (wine may have helped)
4. Pro-Ject (Ortofon Blue 2M)
5. Alva TT
6. Technics tying Rega P3
I have a feeling, I have a preference for higher end cartridges. The Clearaudio Virtuoso sounded slightly warm, but very clear.
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If you are into white papers and stuff like that, try looking at the Basis Turntables. They are great tables and you can find them used in the same ball park as the tables you listed.
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It is very hard with all these different comparisons as I assume none of the other variables were accounted for. Cartridge definitely has a huge impact on the sound, more so than the table |
@analogluvr I would definitely agree with that statement... there are too many variables. But my original hypothesis still stands and aligns with your statement that cartridge plays a large role in the overall quality and character of the sound. So if we want to just look at the cartridges that come with the tables, that might be better. An additional hypothesis is that all the turntables I am considering are within an acceptable range of quality and performance to each other, so we can consider the “turntable package” as a whole, with the cartridge being the major determinant. Also, from a retail “package” perspective, tables come with only one or two options for cartridges. For example, the Pro-Ject Classic SB can come with an Ortofon Silver, Ortofon Red Quintet MC, or a Sumiko Blue Point #2. You can assume the Pro-Ject table is within the same quality and performance range as a Rega P3, Marantz TT-15S1, and Clearaudio Concept.
With all that in mind, would higher quality cartridge be the main determining factor? I would say yes, so I am leaning towards a turntable that comes with the highest quality cartridge... the Marantz.
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I know your mind is pretty much made up already but imho you are possibly looking at it all a little off kilter.
As your testing has already determine the better cart has made the most impression on you, NOT the better table.
I would be shopping for the best TABLE I could afford even if it did not have the best cart right now.
Then I would be shopping for a better cart later as funds allow knowing that the better table combined with the later purchase better cart is going to pay big dividends.
However that’s me and if you are just looking for the best package deal right now within your budget then so be it.
But you likely already know this merry go round never stops......
Just my view from " been there, done that" and not meant as any criticism at all. |
@uberwaltz I have to disagree with you about the approach in this price range ($1500 package). And I have to remind you that I have always stated I am looking for the best turntable “package” currently, not the best options for latter upgrades. If that were the case, I would easily just buy the Clearaudio Concept with cheaper Concept MM, and then save up for a $2000 Clearaudio MC cart. But I’m realistic, and know that my next eupgrade efforts would put me into the $4000 -$6000 package range in a number of years. I will “play with tubes” until that itch needs to be scratched.
So it seems my efforts should be focused on optimizing my cart choice over the table, based on the tables I have listed above all having very similar quality. Do you agree that the tables I have mentioned are about equal, or would you rank them differently. And if you rank them differently, would the cart option that usually comes with the table influence your opinion.
in the end, it might come down to a can’t pass up deal, but the Marantz TT-15S1 has a great $950 cart (that I’ve heard), and seems to give me the best bang for my buck. Based on staying under the $1500 budget, I have come across a Pro-Ject Classic SB with Sumiko Blue Point 2 that I have heard great things about. I might buy that cheaper option and roll some good tubes instead.
In any case, the Alva TT sold today and was shipped off to it’s new home, and I plan on listening to one or two more table packages, before I pull the trigger. |
As I said, just my opinion.
i have been seduced by a package deal before and ultimately been left wanting.
Its a tough call but as a package deal at $1500 I can see the Marantz has curb appeal.
I would be the Clearaudio Concept buyer, lol.
Project Classic or Marantz?
That might just boil down to best deal however I would lean towards the Marantz there just for the superior cart......... |
I was under the impression Clearaudio manufactured the Marantz turntable.
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@stereo5 you would be 100% correct. The TT-15S1 is basically a “rebranding” if the Clearaudio Emotion. They slapped on the Marantz name because they “designed” it, but it’s still a clearaudio at heart.
so, what’s your point or purpose of that statement? |
Another combo I would say to take a close look at: The Music Hall MMF 7.3 w/ Ortofon 2M Bronze. Same price range.
I also used to own a Clearaudio Emotion CMB (which is a slight upgrade from the Marantz). I had a Maestro V2 cart on my Emotion (better cart than the Virtuoso that comes with the Marantz). I’ve also had the Virtuoso mounted on other tables. I have a lot a carts.
I liked the MMF 7.3 much more, and the Ortofon 2M Bronze I like more than all the Clearaudio carts. The 2M Bronze can also be fitted with a 2M Black styli, which will take it up a notch further.
Just my $.02
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It seems you may have less of the audio file disease then most of us. I would go with the best used table I could afford for now and then buy a good cartridge separately later but I’ve been at this for 20 years
But you would probably be happy with any of the deals you quoted… |
That last comment may have sounded snarky and I didn’t intend it as such. I just mean that there is no real wrong answer ultimately it’s whatever you’re going to be happy with. |
No, it didn’t sound snarky at all. 🙄 |
@robelvick I looked at the MH 7.3, and liked it for the Bronze. Having previously listed to a Red and a Blue Ortofon on my Pro-Ject, I would say I do like the Blue Ortofon sound a lot. There is a Clearaudio Emotion for sale here for $925, but has a Denon DL-103R cart. Seems like a good deal on a used table. I’ve read that the Denon cart is nice, but never listened to it, and wouldn’t know if it paired well with the Satisfy tone arm.
@analogluvr I’m a bit less of a DIY or audio tinkerer for sure. And I dot have the budget to continuously update my table and cart.... vinyl is a different story! |
The Denon 103 sound is going to be VERY different from the Ortofon Blue/ Bronze/ Black sound.
It has a lot of support for sure but I was not impressed with a 103 I had and much preferred a Ortofon Black on the same table/arm setup.
However at that price if you did not like the 103 you could sell it, buy an Ortofon Bronze and still be well under the $1500 mark.
Means you have to tinker a little but no matter what you buy you really need to tinker as you will need verify the setup if the cart is already fitted, trust nobody!
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I was also not impressed by the Denon cart, especially compared to what else is available for the same price.
Not a bad price for the used Emotion, but like @uberwaltz mentioned, I would change the cart. The Denon takes some knowledge, and patience to setup/mount correctly as well. Ortofon 2M carts are much easier, especially if you go with the MMF 7.3, which it’ll be premounted. Just a few minutes to double check, as you should always do.
If you liked the 2M Blue on the Project, then the Music Hall w/ 2M Bronze will make you very happy. |
@robelvick have you heard the Sumiko Blue Point No 2 before or Ortofon Quintet Red? The Pro-Ject Classic SB comes with one of those carts based on who is selling it. I really like the look of The Classic, and obviously all of these tables are in the Pro-Ject family, so quality will be very similar to the Music Hall, right?
good to know about the Denon 103R.
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@bignamehere Correct, Pro-Ject and Music Hall are in the same family, so quality should be similar per price range.
I have not heard the Sumiko BP2, or Quintet Red, but I have owned the Quintet Black. The Sumiko is a high output MC, which I usually don't care for, but can't say anything definitive since I haven't heard one.
Quintet Black in excellent though, but that's at the top of that range. I'm guessing it would be similar comparing the 2M Red to 2M Black, which there is a huge difference in SQ.
I'm you like the Classic table, I would choose the non-SB version, and then pick a different cart. Most dealers will you give you a discount on a cart, if you buy the table from them.
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Which one is Alfa TT? I thought it was Audi. |
“Alfa” or “Alva”?
Alfa Romeo = my car
Audi = another car I owned
Alva TT = Cambridge Audio Alva TT Turntable that I sold
😊 |
@bignamehere...........
Thanks for the the snarky response. Totally uncalled for. My POINT was, if the Marantz is made by Clearaudio ( I wasn’t sure), why not buy the Clearaudio?
You post a question and received many good responses, you should be grateful, not a jerk about it. |
I wouldn’t bother with the Quintet Red - that’s simply too much money to spend on a bonded-tip stylus; you should be shooting for at least nude elliptical. My dealer has a base Classic and I haven’t been too impressed by its overall build quality, either. Any Clearaudio will be far beyond that. |
@stereo5 me being snarky would look like... “what’s your point?”
me responding to an ambiguous statement looks like... “so, what’s your point or purpose of that statement?”
The additional clarification, and extra effort, removes the “snark”... for most people.
You didn’t ask any questions, nor reference a statement made in this thread. Do you believe the two statements below communicate the same thing?
1. ”I was under the impression Clearaudio manufactured the Marantz turntable.”
2. “Since the Marantz is manufactured by Clearaudio, why not just purchase a Clearaudio turntable?”
The first statement, with the use of the idiom “under the impression” implies your understanding of something is in direct conflict with what has been stated. Since that topic was never debated nor discussed, using the idiom doesn’t fit in the context of the discussion.
Secondly, why would you assume anyone would derive your underlying point of buying a Clearaudio instead of the Marantz from your posting? There is nothing at all in your statement that would suggest a recommendation to buy a Clearaudio table instead of the Marantz, but thank you for the clarification.
My response to what you intended to communicate would be “cost”. The retail cost of a basic Clearaudio Concept is $1800. When I listened to both turntables, the sound quality coming from the Marantz ($1499 w/ Virtuoso cart) is much better in every way than the sound quality of a Clearaudio Concept w/ MM cart. With $1500 being the top of my budget, and repeatedly stating I am not looking to purchase a table for “upgrade paths”, the Clearaudio isn’t a wise purchase for me. Your opinion may differ.
@mulveling
See cost/budget statement above. If I had the money, I would buy the Clearaudio Concept (bamboo) with the Virtuoso V2 cart or buy a nice Clearaudio MC cart and purchase a midrange MC Tube Phono stage. I can currently buy a Classic SB with Sumiko BP#2 HOMC for $1100 (open box), and have extra $$ to roll some nice tubes. Or I can buy the Marantz at retail and still be on budget.
I have seen a number of Clearaudio Concept basic packages being sold on eBay for $1399 from foreign dealers, which makes me a bit skeptical. Any experience with buying from overseas dealers for a large discount? |
Don’t buy new from foreign dealer on eBay.
And BPS is not the best option, to put it as diplomatically as I can. |
@lewm what is BPS? Also, what have you directly experienced with an overseas dealer? There are a couple listed as demo/show models as well. Obviously, if I can save $500 on a table, I’m definitely going to try, but don’t know the overseas market. |
Also, has anyone had any good or bad experiences with HiFi Heaven (hifiheaven.net)? They have a large number of display model and open box tables for sale. |
OP
I have purchased quite a number of items from HiFi Heaven and still have a number of pieces in use in my HT system.
I have found them to be very prompt and professional and very fairly priced and ready to strike a deal if you call them direct .
I purchased a new $4000 integrated amp from them and it arrived with a scratch on the top from brutal UPS handling ( looked like they had tried to run over the box with an 18 wheeler!). There was no quibble and after sending them pictures they replaced it and had damaged one sent back all within about 4 days.
Just my experience, YMMV.
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HiFi Heaven is a very good option. Used them numerous times for purchases and trade-ins. Never any issues.
I like The Music Room (TMR Audio) the best though, but their selection of turntables is smaller, most of the time. Shipping is fast, and the guys over there are very reasonable and responsive to inquiries. |
Good to know about HIFI Heaven... they have a few open box items that could allow me to grab something slightly better that what I had planned.
@lewm I am currently testing the Pro-Ject Classic with Blue Point No 2 (not BPS), and I feel like it is similar to the Clearaudio MM... maybe slightly more detailed.
I also listened/compared the Marantz TT15S1, Clearaudio Concept MM, and the Rega P6 with Ania MC and was rather impressed with the Ania MC in comparison to the Virtuoso on the TT15S1. The Ania sounded very full compared to the more open and clear sound of the Virtuoso. I plan on doing an in-home side by side test with the Pro-Ject Classic and the TT15S1 in the next couple of days. Should be fun. |
