My speakers are listed as going down to 40 HZ (Dynaudio 1.3 MkII monitors). There is an REL Strata III available locally that I might snag, try out and re-sell if I don't like/need it. My question is this: since I would not be using this for movies, do I even need this? I mostly listen to classical music, more chamber than symphonic, and occasionally listen to rock, jazz and other pop styles.
Am I likely missing something without that lowest octave? I'm thinking that 99% of the time the sub might not even be in use if it kicks in at 40 Hz.
Any comments, purely theoretical or from experience, will be welcome.
A good subwoofer not only gives you better bass but will increase the size of your soundstage. I could see a major improvement with your speakers and a quality subwoofer. Good luck.
I too am a huge REL fan. Teajay said it correctly in the first post. I bought a Stadium 2 almost 15 years ago and have found it had dramatic improvements in every single pair of speakers I have ever used it with including: Martin Logan Aerius i's, Audio Physic Tempo 3's,Silverline Sonata 2's, Apogeee Mini Grands, and currently with my Apogee Duetta Signatures. It is simply the best single component in my system and adds so much improvement I will never listen without its obvious benefits always included. Follow the above advice: crossover pretty low, gain pretty low. I truly can't imagine any speaker not gaining some improvement using a properly integrated sub like a REL, into their room. I would almost label it "REQUIRED" to get the best out of your system...it's THAT much of an improvement. Happy Lissn'n
It isn't very likely that your listening position is actually the optimal spot for all sound wavelengths, meaning that you are probably sacrificing sound quality in some frequency range no matter where you're sitting. In many rooms one could find the sweet spot for optimal sound stage and dispersion, but that spot be less than optimal for the longer bass wavelengths. With a sub you have the luxury of obtaining the correct placement for both creation of sound stage and full bass wavelengths. The best of both worlds.
JL has limited hookup options, especially compared to the Rel's. JL's are great subs, but you really need a certain set up to use them. Also, they do not allow for mulitple input signals as the Rel does. If you have Rel's you can put your LFE signal into one input from your HT processor, and the Speakeron connection from a dedicated 2 channel preamp, and it will work with both signals, the JL will not do that.
Interesting that JL Audio is not mentioned in this thread. The OP went with REL and is happy, congrats. No doubt REL produces a fine sub, but for anyone else considering (Mapman?) adding a sub to a fine pair of monitors: (1) absolutly do it, for all the reasons mentioned above (particularly Teajay and Grannyrig), and (2) audition JL Audio. I recently added an F112 and the expansion of air/soundstage/tone is amazing. It transformed the entire sonic spectrum by enveloping it in an expansive, yet tight and tuneful foundation. Get it dialed in right, set it, forget it, and enjoy it.
That said, I do want to make it clear that I wasn't being sarcastic in acknowledging that your extensive musical training better equips you for the task I was describing. I've become much more attuned (pardon the pun) to pitch subtleties since I started studying guitar a few years back. However, I was trying to point out the difficulty inherent there for anyone undertaking the job.
Suffice it to say that - should you ever have the opportunity to add RTA and /or x-over flexibility and/or DRC down the road - you will likely be surprised at just how much improvement you'll get out of your existing sub/speakers.
Aplomb! Has anybody named an adjustment knob "aplomb" yet? That is also a great name for an audio company or product.
I have this little corner thing going on that reinforces the REL amazingly. My system is tweeked (for "active" listening anyway) to my listening spot only, as standing waves and other bass reinforcement elsewhere in the room go bananas, as well they should.
I have the same Dyns. Yes, they can benefit from a sub with some kinds of music in particular. But the Dyns can sound lovely with bass down below 50 hz or so by themselves, so it is a tough call.
I do not use a sub with them because I have other speakers that do full range quite well.
If I did not, I might consider a sub, but only a larger very good one capable of going down to 20 hz or so with aplomb in order to really add clear value.
I would try to cross over at 50 hertz or above I believe.
I have used my Dyns with an older M&K sub with good results but that was in my second system where the speakers are stored way up high inside a cabinet and bass performance is way down compared to proper setup as a result.
Wolf, I tried the sub facing towards me and it did not sound good, so I don't think I'll have the controls against the wall (unless I move to another house, and even then, who knows...) Marty, you're probably right, but once again, the expense.
Clarification--I didn't mean to imply that I'm uniquely qualified to do this by ear. I imagine most of the folks on the forum have spent a lot of time squinting their ears to sound and music. I think most of the folks here would do a good job of setting up by ear, given enough time. I tried to make that point, briefly, before.
IME, the problem with set-up by ear is that you're trying to optimize for 3 major variables at once (and a few minor ones, too). Smoothest response will vary with room position, as will the native output level from the sub (as reinforcing or destructive room interactions have their way with the low hz output). The placement with the smoothest response will likely require a different level setting on your sub than the placement with the second smoothest response. Finally, the x-over frequency (and slope, if applicable to your set-up) must be optimized for the particular placement you've chosen. As above, likely to differ (unpredictably) between best, next best, etc. And you've got to pick the best compromise....
I'm sure you're better equipped for the task than I am, but it's an awful lot to ask of anyone to optimize that equation by ear.
Good Luck (and kudos on the self-improvement project, too).
I also run my REL Q150E relatively (but appropriately) pretty low...and as an older (but still amazingly handsome) musician/soundman I also have "experience specific" tastes in this stuff (unlike the "teeming masses/great unwashed" non musicians who have irrelevant tastes...heh heh). I do adjust the level sometimes but only in tiny increments. I suggest 3 things: An angled Neutrik plug (hard to find but cool) and an angled IEC cable (Audioquest sells an IEC angled adaptor) in case you want to put the control panel side back against a wall (I do this), and a "chicken head" knob for the level pot in case it IS backed against a wall...you can adjust the level and more readily tell where the knob is set.
Yeah, Marty, I did think about that. Trying to be better in my old age! And, I trust my ears-- as a musician and teacher I've relied on them. I've done multitrack mixing, live mixing and things which make me focus on various aspects of sound and listening that most folks (outside a forum like this) probably never think about. I have (so far) wound up with a frighteningly low volume setting on the Q150E (so low that some would say "why bother") and I'm kicking it in around the frequency where the Dynaudios supposedly kick out. The biggest problem right now is dragging myself out of that room so I can get other things done. I am really pleased with the sound. Wife is away for a couple of weeks, so now is the time to really take it in.
You can order the SMS. Skip the EQ section and x-over section. Just use the RTA. Move the sub until you get the best results on the video readout and you will be very close to optimal placement. Trying to do the same thing by ear is -IME- both much more time consuming and much less reliable. You can then return the SMS.
I am not suggesting that a highly principled fellow like you would ever do such an unethical thing - merely observing (purely theoretically) that you could.
OTOH, if you tried that, you might end up exploring the x-over and EQ functions (IME, hard to live without once you've tried 'em)and decide to keep the thing, which might morally justify the whole evil plan.
Yes, do bother. Just don't get crazy with the volume. You don't want to know it's there when on, but miss it when it is off. And don't be afraid to move it around the room a bit for optimal sound.
Yes. If you can flip it for minimal loss, why not?. I was very happy with my aerial 7b's but decided to try a sub to get a bit more bottom end. below 50 is all I wanted bumped up a notch.
Went with a dd12 and took the time to set it up right (many hours). Ended up running full range to the 7b's and cut off the dd12's at 48. Have the volume set at only 14, on a scale of 99. Like I said.....just a tiny bump up, but it yielded incredible improvement imho. The aerials are still doing their full range thing with the dd12 offering a tiny kick way down low. was really surprised by how much I liked the addition. The key of course is the set-up part.
I'm sure the Velo electronic setup is great, but it's a bit of a budget-buster for me. I've spent parts of three days listening and tweaking and am happy enough with it that I decided to take the plunge and buy the REL. I'm sure I'll continue to make adjustments hear and there, but overall it's been educational and fun, if perplexing at times. Bottom line is, it's a significant overall improvement and I'm a born-again audio freak. I'm digging up a lot of material I haven't heard in ages, and it's never sounded so good. Maybe I'll upgrade the CD player down the line, but for now this is really satisfying.
Audioquest provides an excellent idea. The Velo SMS-1 sub controller will help you get the set up right. It's a 180 degree difference from set-up by ear.
The cost is +/- $400, in-home money back trial period. If you decide against a sub - return the SMS-1. IME, it's a mistake to try to judge your subwoofer set up 'til you've used a tool like the SMS-1.
So...I am auditioning an old REL Q150E over the weekend. It's and interesting process if I don't get to manic about it. Lots of knob twisting and changing of music. I'm honestly not sure I like what I hear all of the time. It seems I keep lowering the sub volume and the crossover frequency. Pretty soon I may have eliminated the sub altogether!
It's a side-firing speaker and I found it to sound very directional in spite of what everyone says. I turned it backwards in the corner and that made a huge difference--night and day, really.
More later. Thanks to everyone who has offered their two cents worth.
Integrating a sub into a two channel system is difficult, but does not have to be. I use a Velodyne SMS-1 equalizer with my system and have great success playing all types of music. I do not have bass boom, droning, or one bass notes that some people are experiencing. It takes a lot of time and effort to get the correct volume, phase, and EQ set properly to listen without having to adjust any settings. Regarding having enough bass, someone is asking for a sub to go with a pair of Wilson Audio Maxx III's in anoher forum. Once you do have a sub setup properly, you can always turn up the bass volume for parties, jamming out, and other reasons to play loud. Ciao, Audioquest4life
"Oh. If you do get a sub or two: find drag racing on tv, turn stereo up as high as courage allows, listen to them launch. It is really cool the first time."
Oh. If you do get a sub or two: find drag racing on tv, turn stereo up as high as courage allows, listen to them launch. It is really cool the first time.
The "proper" sub frequency point should depend on the main speaker's low frequency capability and careful listening...if I set the REL too high up into the main speaker territory it gets muddy, untoward, unseemly, tawdry, flabby, unfocused, unrealistic, overbearing, and innacurrate, thus harshing my mellow.
At least one person here is recommending a crossover point of 80 hz (or higher). Me.
Marty
My earlier post explains my thinking. My own experience leads me to believe that high crossover points work best in most rooms, provided extreme care is used in managing the crossover function. I understand you prefer a different solution, but mileage does vary.
True...there are those who are ethically challenged by subs, and I would be also if I spent $6,624.37 on "full range" speakers just to discover somebody gets a similar experience from adding a good sub to a more modest speaker. My groovy sounding Silverline Prelude/REL Q150e combo was purchased (used) for less than the cost of a decent brake job.
"Oh....your cheating!" when they see my sub in the corner.
And I've also heard
"OH, I thought that was all coming from your speaker, Your using a sub!?)
Like using one is like wearing platform shoes or something?
My sub is crossed low and set at around 50 hz or so. I don't turn it up alot,just enough.....you know... tastefully!
I run into certain ....mind sets.... that don't like the IDEA of using a sub. These people want a set of speakers to do it all for them, because they FEEL a proper set SHOULD give them ALL the sound.
In large rooms, using big speakers is fine, most people don't have big room. If you set up good, small speakers on stands and use a quality sub you can get most all the benifits of great sound.
Why try and let the idea of what a thing should do or be. limit you on what you could have?
If I try and run large, full range speakers in my smaller room (11x22), I forfeit good imaging, soundstage, air, depth and so on. I would just get a ham fisted BOOM sound.
The thing I posted was pasted directly from the REL site, and it seems REL stuff generally does music very well (a friend has a completely different model than I do with the same main speakers and it works fine). Also...every room differs absolutely, so a corner might sound great for some. REL subs crossover (or appear) wherever you want 'em to. I set the frequency on mine right where my main speakers lose the low end based mostly from listening...and aided by a test CD which I highly recommend if only just for fun (you can see from warble tones or whatever exactly what your room is doing to the sound at your head). It does take a while to dial it in...now I just adjust the level a little here and there. I also think they're expensive new, but, again, used they can be a steal.
I'm sorry, but IMHO, crossing-over at or above the -3 dB bass response of your primary speaker - particularly monitor speakers - is a recipe for frustration. Ever wonder why some say subs are difficult to integrate into a 2-channel system? One of those reasons is simply the sub is crossed-over far too high. At least no one here is recommending an 80 Hz crossover point.
The Dynaudio Contour 1.3 MK II has a lower -3 dB response of 43 Hz. Again, IMHO, the best place to start is multiplying the lower -3 dB response by 0.7 for your starting point:
43 Hz x 0.7 = 30.1 Hz
This is assuming you can cross-over your sub this low. Many cannot (and have a lowest cross-over frequency of 40 Hz).
Often, rooms that are appropriate for monitor speakers have natural resonances in the 50-ish HZ range. You need to consider more than just the response of the speakers...you need to consider the response of the room.
Oh...and keep it away from corners. IMHO, that's mistake #2 that makes subs "hard to integrate".
And my last controversial statement in this post...IMHO you'd be better off with 2 (or more) "lesser" subs than one "more expensive" sub.
Duke over at AudioKinesis has an offering he calls "the swarm". Check it out (at least for some food for thought). www.audiokinesis.com. I have no affiliation (other than meeting him at LSAF a couple years back).
Rgs92 I use a REL B1 with my Sonus faber Cremona Auditor Ms with great success. My dealer took about 1 hour to dial it in - even though I do not have it located in an ideal spot. Xover is around 32Hz.
"Acoustically, either the 'ST' or the 'Q' range work excellently in either a hi-fi or home cinema system. However, the inputs on the 'Q' range are slightly more oriented towards home cinema use."
That I can understand. But did they actually say "Their downward firing subwoofers are designed for music and their forward firing subwoofers are designed for home theater."?
Here's the possibly disturbing line from the currrent REL site (the "FAQ'S" section, "6. Which REL sub-bass system is best for me?":
"Acoustically, either the 'ST' or the 'Q' range work excellently in either a hi-fi or home cinema system. However, the inputs on the 'Q' range are slightly more oriented towards home cinema use."
They do say "slightly"...I feel better already. Also notice that they no longer make the "Q" series. My beloved Q150E has all the adjustments one could ask for in a sub: Phase, frequency, level for both input types, and a weird 2 position knob for disco freaks.
The older SF monitors (like my Minuettos) are a tough match for a sub because their upper bass was both elevated (relative to the mids) and a bit ragged. It's hard to find a good place to get a crossover that is both seamless within the mid bass and not too high in overall bass level.
I understand that more recent SF models are quite a bit more neutral in that region, so my comments should not taken as relevant to those circumstances.
Has anyone tried a sub with Sonus Faber monitors? I have to say, so far I have never heard a subwoofer that I thought I could deal with permanently. It kind of makes the speakers more omnidirectional to my hearing, less point-source, and confuses things a little. But I'm keeping an open mind on this.
"06-28-11: Rrog According to REL their downward firing subwoofers are designed for music and their forward firing subwoofers are designed for home theater."
NO! Say it ain't so! In spite of what "REL" says (what the hell do THEY know anyway?)...mine sounds great for music, which is all I use it for. Now I have to go look that up...damn...
Yes the Q series is front firing while the Strata III is a downward firing 10 inch driver.
The smaller Q series is fine in the corner etc... Room placement on any sub is a matter of trial and error. Larger subs can overpower a room in the corner however.
I owned the REL Strata III and found it to be quite good.
My REL Q150E is front firing. It sits in a little corner made by a fake fireplace behind the left speaker (firing forward toward the back of the main speaker) and that is EXACTLY where it belongs in my room (I moved it all over the place and pointed it in various directions until it seemd to lock into its current spot).
The REL sub is fine and will give you a taste of what a sub can do when set up properly. It is down firing and smaller, so closer to a corner is OK, but my suggested set-up could yield better results.
Knowing your room size etc... would help greatly.
You could always pic up a second one for more improvement as one becomes available and you decide you love the improvement that ones gives.
Yes, get a sub and set it up as others have said here. Keep the volume low and cross it over low - no higher than 60 htz and 40-50 would be even better.
The stage will open up just as Teajay stated on the first post. Please read his post again. He is spot on and very wise on the topic. I use a Velodyne DD18 sub with my Soundlab M1 speakers and I set them to only handle 16-50 htz or so. The volume is set very low and the improvement is wonderful.
Larger stage, more 3D sound, a foundation and scale not achieved without a good sub. The improvement is HUGE when done right. Avoid the corners of your room, instead place it anywhere between your speakers at a plane just behind them with the sub shooting at a 45 degree angle into the room - if a front firing sub.
Avoid turning it up to much or crossing over to high as these things will ruin the mids and call to much attention to the bass.
As a former full range speaker user and subwoofer hater (except for pro sound use) I found Elizabeth's comments understandable but less valid than usual when applied to a topic including REL subs..."Rock" music can certainly have a lot of bass (as does a lot of the jazz I like...Brian Bromberg anybody?) but the beauty of most RELs is the amount of gain, phase, and frequency adjustment inherent in their design. I adjust the output level frequently (in small steps...I put a "chicken head" amp knob on there so my greasy little fingers can "feel" what I'm adjusting) to fine tune the bass response for certain bass shy or bass bloated wall shaking recordings (do I agree with ALL of the engineering decisions made by the faceless strangers who messed with the sound of my recorded music? NO!)...otherwise impossible with my (and most everybody else's "high endish") preamp. It's nice to be able to do this while leaving the rest of the signal chain and main amp signal unmolested, as, for my tastes, this is all the adjusting my rig needs...plus it allows me to continue my sonic dominance over these things as, after all, I am the "decider".
Blkadr makes several good points. I run my main speakers full range down to around 50Hz then using a good SPL meter and test disc, blend the subs in near that point where they start to creep into the lower midrange then back them off just a bit.
That's what I like about the REL's, you don't have to have your main speakers going through a filter mucking things up.
Tmsorosk, you make the dumb blanket statement, bad grammar and all, and I'm the uneducated one? As pointed out by Macdadtexas, few people own speakers that go much below 40Hz. They're giving up a lot of what's in those grooves/digits. If you've "tried at least a dozen subs in the last 38 years" and been unsuccessful, duh, perhaps you bought "the wrong speakers", I mean subs!
Many thanks to all who responded--I've learned a lot and will be actively looking for a sub. Unfortunately, in the meantime the Strata III has sold (he who hesitates is last), so I'll be searching the archive for threads on good mid-fi subs that might match up well with my Dynas.
I disagree with those who suggest a sub is just for explosions and crashes. REL has a great reputation, it should be a good addition for your Dynaudios. The mistake many make is in the set-up. I find that setting the crossover too high at first makes it easier to find the right phase adjustment. Then set the crossover and output levels too low and inch your way up. When properly tuned in, you should be almost unaware of your sub- until you turn it off. Although there can be benefits using the crossover to cut the lows from your main speakers, I usually like running the speakers with fullrange signal, you may experiment with plugging the ports. If you get a good price, I definitely say go for it. You may love it, the set-up can keep you busy in a fun way, and if it doesn't work out? It's a REL, and should be easy to unload.
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