Tube virgin, here. I am building a system and I'm trying to contain the preamp/amp cost to $3k or so. (I could go up a little.)
I'm inclined not to dive into tubes all the way through, but get a solid state on the output end. (Open to suggestions; inclined toward PS Audio, Parasound.) I'm reading around about tube preamps and have talked with my local dealer, who sells Black Ice/Jolida and Prima Luna (PL). He used to carry Rogue but said they kept coming back for repairs. That's why he carries PL.
I'm asking these questions after having established (via reviews, comments) that Schiit gear is quite the value. Lately, I've been reading about Decware and other small tube makers. I'm very curious about buying direct, if possible, and a company that stands behind their products is crucial.
So, your opinions about tube integrated or *especially* tube preamps —
1. Who do you like? Consider I want to do pre/amp for a total of $3k if possible.
2. Do you think PL is worth all that money just for a preamp? I get the feeling they're high quality but a bit over-hyped. (No disrespect to the highly passionate Kevin Deal, but he's all over my search results.) And what would you think about $2k/$1k preamp-to-amp spending ratio?
3. Any sense of what happened to Jolida since the name change to "Black Ice"? I see there's a sordid story there but did the re-branding clear up the mess? Any experiences with the Black Ice company?
4. I know there are many Schiit fans out there; so my question would be -- did anyone consider Schiit for tube preamp and go another way? Or move beyond Schiit for any particular reason? It's hard not to just capitulate and do a Freya+ or Saga+ but why wouldn't one just go with Schiit?
I missed your budget being a combination of preamp and amp - my apologies.
For both, you could do something like a CJ PV12/15 or ARC LS15 and match it with something like a McCormack DNA .5 or 1, Krell KST-100 (make sure it's been serviced), various Brystons, etc. You'd likely want to get a set of replacement tubes for any tube pre you bought used; but that's usually not a huge expense.
@last_lemming I'll look at decware but very low wattage. I am not sure about how that would pair. @naimfan Thanks for those additional suggestions.
I've been glad to collect and hear rationales for anything folks mentioned, especially if they worked somewhere w/in the price parameters I mentioned. I've learned a lot.
But honestly, I realize that I will *not* buy something I cannot audition on a trial basis —either in a store or on a demo. I want to hear things in combination, preferably with my speakers and, ideally, in my home.
From all the research I've done and considering my location (Denver area), the tube list gets shorter:
So, what I can actually audition in stores or via mail, these are the choices:
Schiit Quicksilver Black Ice/Jolida McIntosh (a bit pricy but the MA252 is doable) Prima Luna Rogue Octave (probably too expensive)
If I missed a brand that does in home trial, please correct me.
This probably kills all interest in the topic, but just want to let you know how things are ending up for me!
@tvad I'm so grateful to learn from your experience. I do not want to buy and sell, over and over. I'm not against changes but there are other things besides audio I want to pursue, if I may say that out loud. @decooney has been making the same point about all tubes — I think the message is sinking into my head.
I've had exactly 1 experience with tubes — the all-tube Prima Luna EVO 400, which I didn't like. Sloppy bass, lack of tightness and crisp highs. And I do realize that was likely a one-off for various reasons. If I could have another session which had the virtues of tubes (a variety of virtues, I'm not trying to oversimplify) but which contained a bit more of the crisp, tight, control of solid state, I'd probably be ready to go all tube right now. But I have to hear it.
I don't think of your comment as a sidebar; you see that I'm after what you finally accomplished, and you're warning me off what might be a potential dead-end. That's appreciated.
And RMAF may be worth waiting for, final decision-wise. I'll probably gain years of experiential knowledge from that event.
It's good to have aspirations! I have a very detailed chart which I've built from these suggestions; some of these will be marked out as things for down the road. This is one. @decooney was saying a lot of great things about Pass, too. Thank you!
....@tvad Pass Labs also makes an excellent integrated amp, the INT-60, for around $5200 used/demo (but IMO, the XA-30.8 is where it’s at).
Agree with tvad on these two. While these are above @hilde45s stated budget, I messaged him the same kind of referral last night about the 30.8 and INT-60 and a few of the Firstwatt amps if he decides to go with solid state instead of tube components.
It’s been interesting watching how hard Nelson works to make his circuits and solid state gear sound like tube. Today we see Nelson’s NuTube DIY preamp. Now all we need is a DIY NuTube amplifier by Nelson to make it one step closer to an "all tube" equation. Hehe. :)
Prima Luna for the money nothing better you don't have to worry about a tube if it goes bad easy to identify. Also they are very hard to find used people don't give them up. Should tell you something.
Agree with 4425, although I would add refurb'd Dynaco or Van Alstine gear to CJ/ARC. Any of these you can easily get really good, fully depreciated preamp and amp for $3k or less.
This might be surprising, but don't look at it a foolish...until you check what I say,
Some years ago I discovered a "cult" preamp-amplifer from a mass consumer mid-fi maker from 1960's, Stromberg-Carlson. I have restored three of these through 2007 -2013 in my restoration work for Audio Classics, or two privately (for my son). The device is the Stromberg-Carlson ASR-433, an integrated preamp-amplifier with 6BQ5's, a whopping 10-12-watts or so per channel.
When done, listening through my Joseph Pearls !!! the sound was astonishing, good, and all owners were happy with this unit in a "second" system for casual listening. The usual recapping, etc, but no modifications. Worth checking. There is a bigger model using 5881 or 6L6 output tubes but I have never seen it. There is of course, other vintage tube stuff around for anyone brave (or crazy) enough to experiment and have fun...
My own system (all my design) is tube, a 50-watt/channel triode amplifier with MAC output transformers built in 1989, a two-box tube preamp (1991) , and a TUBE MR78 tuner in 1995 (for the MR71 tube sound). Drives a set of Josrph Pearls (my design also! in 1999)
Well, it’s been a while since I looked at this thread. And internet fora are nothing if there aren’t Divergent opinions expressed, right? Having said that, I will recommend that with respect to your power amp question you seek out a white paper which is on the Sanders sound systems website on transistors versus tubes or solid state versus tubes. IMHO this will help you understand some of the important differences between tube and solid state power amps.
The next point I want to share (and its just my opinion) is that a good tube preamp can make an ENORMOUS difference in the sound of a system. IMHO it is better than not using a preamp, or only using a passive volume control. I don’t have a technical basis for this opinion but I can tell you that I’m not the only one who has this opinion.
Personally, I am very much in favor of the small artisan, designer/Builder such as the the Haviland, or the don sacks, or the supratek. You’re just paying for the parts and skilled labor to design and build the equipment. You’re not paying for staff meetings, fancy buildings, inventory control systems, email systems, accounting departments, shipping departments, management salaries, marketing, Etc. I have nothing against the larger companies, but I have worked for big companies and I know that all that money for all those salaries has to come from somewhere.
You asked about why point-to-point wiring is important. I don’t think I can really answer that. I did enjoy Kevin Deal’s video on YouTube in which he raves it up. I have read what Mike Maloney has to stay on the Supratek website and he basically says that point-to-point wiring simply sounds better. That he’s tried to make preamps with printed circuit boards but they just sound boring, Flat, plastic and two dimensional By comparison. I know that all the people that use point-to-point wiring are hardcore, hard-headed, Fanatics. That’s the kind of person that I want to do business with. That’s the kind of person I want building my s***.
One other point I want to make is that you're really not in that unique of a position with respect to finding it hard to audition some of this equipment. At least in my experience the very best equipment is hard to find. It's not mass Market. Yeah there's stuff out there that you can find but you're going to get a lot more for your money if you go to those individual Artisan builders. In my experience and from everything I've read that's where the juice is.
Thanks, Markus. I started reading that white paper and it's great. Aimed toward people with electrostatic gear, but I see the principles are general and that will be very useful. Appreciate that.
Glad to hear your view on tube preamps. I've been whipsawed back and forth on this, with some agreeing and others saying, in effect, "If it ain't tubes all the way through, you won't get the effect you're really seeking." I honestly need to listen to hear the proof, but until then, I'm not clear.
I agree about the small builder thought. Quicksilver is such a builder and that's who I'm auditioning tomorrow. Through a dealer, yes, but not a big company.
And you're right about my position not being unique; it may be like a lot of other things we buy — we take a chance. It's just that the money involved is in the 4 figures at least and may be hard to recoup or re-sell. But as many pointed out, it can be hard to find that Ultraverve or whatever. People know them and want them. And tube rolling does a lot (so I hear).
Thanks for taking the time to check back in an add to the advice. I added your comments to some notes I'm keeping.
Good for you for taking notes with some patience. It will pay off to listen to different combinations and take your time comparing. Looking at the dealer and list of gear they offer, will be very educational for you.
Yes, sure, you can do the hybrid approach with a tube preamp and solid state amplifier, in most cases you’ll still hear a TWO dimensional sound stage. It can sound really smooth, musical, but not 3D.
Remove the <average> solid state amp (within your budget), and replace it with an appropriately matched tube amplifier (within your budget) to your speakers and you’ll hear a THREE dimensional sound stage - then it will click. It’s like reading about what car to buy, nobody really knows until they go and test drive them and compare. Listen closely, pun intended :)
Hilde45, I am looking forward to what you think of the Quicksilver pre. Have the the dealer let you audition with both SS and tube amps.
Using a Jolida Fusion tube pre into a BEL 1001 MK5 SS amp presents a very holographic soundstage in my ~15x12' room. Would the right tube amp make an improvement? I can't say.
I will be receiving a Aric Audio 6sn7 based pre next week to replace the Jolida. I have lived with the Jolida for 7 years and believe it to be a very fine produce at its' proce point. The Aric pre is at greater than 2X the price. Wanted to try the 6sn7 type, all tube including rectification, point to point, variable gain, high input/low output impedance, from a respected one person operation. I will keep you posted.
@mesch Thanks -- and yes, please keep me posted. This might be a good way to go. I'm not buying today -- I don't even have my final speaker choice decided. This is pre-research (and fun). It's a shame I can only try one tube type today in my price range, but that's going to tell me something. I'm also curious to try solid-state Atoll -- symmetrical power outs -- because they seem a good, smaller company but there are not many reviews for the US market.
@tvad I got the Harley book yesterday, and already created a "cheat sheet" to take with me during my auditioning today, along with a range of music. Amp power, character, difference to look for between tubes/solid state … I'm ready!
@tvad re: "the importance of impedance matching preamp to amplifier very helpful..."
Agree. And, also important particularly with low power tube amps. Speaking of impedance, there are instances of folks I've come across running very low efficiency speakers (low as 82db @1w/1m) with high impedance 8-16ohms (not 4 ohms), and yet those speakers can still work fairly well with with low power tube amps. Or, as long as the related 8ohm and 16ohm speaker taps are available on the amp.
Using a Jolida Fusion tube pre into a BEL 1001 MK5 SS amp presents a very holographic soundstage in my ~15x12’ room. Would the right tube amp make an improvement? I can’t say.
I will be receiving a Aric Audio 6sn7 based pre next week to replace the Jolida.
Maybe. However, as you likely well know, your BEL is one of (few, more rare) and exceptional older SS amps that does provide unique sound and soundstage. It would take a really good tube amp to dethrone your amp (an average tube amp won’t cut it IMO), which is higher power of course. With the right 6SN7 preamp and your BEL, you’ll be in bliss. I was in the same boat as you, with a higher power 200w SS amp until I went back to tube monos.
FYI: I ran a similar combo to yours in a prior configuration (tube pre / SS amp), and still have my 6SN7 based preamp. Absolutely love it, and yes, the right preamp will dethrone older Jolidas, handily, unless it has all 5-levels of upgrades which makes it a decent unit - but not as good (IMO) as a super nice 6SN7 based point-to-point preamp. A buddy has one, and the factory modded that Jolida until there was nothing left to do. In my rig I went head-to-head side-by-side comparing for a solid year and finally went back to mono tube amps. Again, your BEL is a bit of an exception. I was messing around with similar demos/approaches with Pass amps, before going back to tube amps. While 6SN7 tube preamps can sound nice, and I like mine a lot spent several years messing around to find really good 6SN7 tubes both NOS and new. I can goof up the sound of my preamp by installing lower-cost and more common new re-issue russian or chinese 6SN7s. Not all 6SN7 tubes are created equal, this is for certain!
This is why you see Mike Sanders (Quicksilver) and others now using (lower cost / more available / quiet) 12AT7 tubes in their preamps. He’s thinking of the consumer, his customers! I ended up with some boutique 6SN7s and it paid off, but it was a journey to get there. When you get your 6SN7 tube preamp, if you don’t buy some new/re-issue tubes, check out the "Sophia Electric Blue Glass 6SN7 Tubes". Not inexpensive, but...can be a game changer IF you do not buy NOS/vintage black plates or something. A buddy has the Sophia Blues and apparently for him they "best some of his very near and dear vintage 6SN7s" he’s tried over many years, and he has a lot of tubes. The key i found in a good 6SN7 preamp is getting the right tubes (with decent coupling caps too) Or, finding the right preamp where the designer truly KNOWS how to build the circuit to best utilize the new/re-issue 6SN7 tubes - very few seem to know how to do it well or at least to make it worth buying a 6SN7 based pre.
All said, this is what makes the Mike Sanders Quicksilver Linestage (non-remote) version tube preamp a real bargain. He thinks of the consumer, and value.
Don't overlook building one from a kit. There are plenty of SET preamps kits and plans which are as good as many very expensive manufactured preamps. I made one using Arcturus 27 triodes with blue glass.
Speaking from my own experience I have a Rogue Audio 99 Magnum and have never had any issues ever in almost 15 years. I love the sound of the 6sn7 tube which led me down road of 6sn7 variants, like the 6fg8, and others. Anyway fwiw the 99 sounds great with the right tubes.
@ferrox Atma-sphere MP-3..you’ll simply love it as long as you have low noise tubes to accommodate it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- ferrox, Agree with your "noise" considerations, x 11 tubes. Worth noting for sure. Good point. Last week I had a few email exchanges with Ralph at Atma-sphere, nice people. Never heard their gear, a local dealer almost carried them a while back. Was interested in hearing them beyond an engineering discussion. I reached out to them merely trying to understand the design and reasoning - it would seem like potential for added noise due to sheer quantity. Also asked if they could build a nice amp with half the tubes to gain perspective. Love the look of their very industrial looking tube amps, nice point-to-point under the good. However, correct me where I’m off but it kinda seems like they are into "more is better" logic though, good grief, why so many tubes to accomplish a fairly simple preamp function -
Your thoughts?
MP-3 Tube complement (11 tubes)?: 7 x 12AT7 2 x 6SN7GT 2 x 12AU7
LISTENING UPDATE: With an initial budget seeking $3k or less, I auditioned:
* Quicksilver Integrated Amp against * Atoll separates (MA100, 60w amp & Atoll HD 120 preamp)
Source: Atoll CD player DAC was in CD player. Speakers were Dynaudio Evoke 10’s.
I was hoping that they would set me up with more powerful Atoll (the 100 watt integrated) but they didn’t. So, I spent a lot of time comparing various types of music between the QS Integrated and the Atoll 60 watt. I also asked that a setup be done with QS preamp and an Atoll (or whatever) power amp, but that did not happen.
Quick reflections were that the QS integrated was phenomenally good — rich, luscious, great control over bass and lovely soundstage. However, the volume had to be turned a fair way up and my impression is that the amp was reaching close to its limit.
The Atoll was really good up to a point, but then, especially in the highs, it became almost shrill. I’ve been reading that a big sign that an amp is having a challenge is when the highs get shrill and the soundstage collapses. That definitely happened with the Atoll/ Dyns at higher volumes. I wish they had set me up with a bigger amp.
This is where the listening day ended. I had a couple of exchanges with the sales guy that left me a bit perplexed.
First, when I said I was concerned that the QS might not have quite enough power, he said I could go QS Preamp plus QS monoblocks but that was it. He suggested going to a Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated ($3k) instead. (I'm not dead-set against the monoblocks, but I'm setting up a fairly compact space as was hoping not to sprawl out so many components.)
Second, when I said that I was still interested in trying a tube pre/solid state combo, he seemed to deflect from that idea. “Then you’re getting into matching them and you’ve got additional cables involved. You really make the most of the combo when you get an integrated or at least separates from the same company.”
So, not only did we NOT try any kind of hybrid today (as I had requested) but he also made it seem as if I was getting into complicated and too-deep waters by trying to mix and match tube amp and preamp. My sense from what I’ve read on the blogs and elsewhere indicates that this is not so difficult. I sense he was trying to “steer me” toward an easy, all-in-one solution, even if it was no longer QS, which I definitely liked a lot.
Any thoughts about my experience and what the sales guy was saying and/or about the Rogue Cronus Magnum appreciated.
@decooney Thanks for your perspective regarding my system. My BEL amp was manufactured in 2007 so it has a few years let in it prior to needing a refresh. Not sure what I would replace it with, possibly a Pass XA25. Looking forward to playing with the Aric preamp. I am using a Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC III which provides a great soundstage. I will look into the 6sn7 tubes you suggested.
I agree with you that the non-remote Quicksilver pre is great value.
@decooney Thanks for your perspective regarding my system. My BEL amp was manufactured in 2007 so it has a few years let in it prior to needing a refresh. Not sure what I would replace it with, possibly a Pass XA25. Looking forward to playing with the Aric preamp. I am using a Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC III which provides a great soundstage. I will look into the 6sn7 tubes you suggested.
I agree with you that the non-remote Quicksilver pre is great value.
Comparing your SS to SS: Yes, the Pass XA25 is nice, would likely be my choice for $ IF I ever went back to SS amps and a smaller room. A buddy who bought my former modded Cary V12R went back and forth several times with the XA25, liked both, but the larger tube V12R with 50wpc Triode / 100wpc ultra linear one his heart over, XA25 got returned. I sold that lovely V12R to try the QS 120 Monos for some larger custom speakers - 2x the transformer foot print too. The QS Mono 120s closed the gap on power, added dynamics for my larger 92.5db speakers. Had to change inputs to NOS tubes to make it a more fair comparison. Much closer to the big Cary now. Deciding on caps now to make it a fair competition. re: SS, yes, I still look at Nelson’s Monoblocks mainly because I grew up in Pass Land and admire his work, worked at the same speaker Co too :) when I was younger. He truly gets "soundstage", kinda like your BEL has. For your own comparison IF you need to compare for power and dynamics (compared to your BEL), in all fairness maybe something like the Pass 60.8 monos or 100.8 amp to be fair. Your BEL is no slouch on grunt at 200wpc, right? Yes, XA25 is nice, but not 200wpc like the BEL. It’s all speaker dependent. Now XA25 with the right Harbeths could be nice too :). I continue to admire how Nelson works very hard to make SS sound like tube! (i.e. lower power Firstwatt SIT-3), Pass XA25, etc.
QS Linestage Pre vs remote version: Clarification (Quicksilver LineStage Preamp, non-remote version) is a "value" not only because it’s less cost, MANY will argue its the more purest preamp because it "sounds better" "more musical" than the QS remote control version preamplifier (different design, different volume control). Side by side many say the lower cost Linestage is the ticket for sound, and you are only dealing with TWO tubes, makes vintage NOS upgrades low cost, easy, less noise! Most cave and go for the more exp remote version. I ended up keeping my former Cary Audio 6SN7 preamp now paired with the Quicksilver Mono 120s and it’s very very nice. Love it, actually. Pairing Brand-A with Brand-B can be done but it’s always a gamble til you actually try it.
+1, what tvad said. Agree. --------------------------------------------
David, Reading above you went for a nice dinner and got served an appetizer and the restaurant stopped serving, chef went home, servers started cleaning up and turned off the open sign. Missed the real Entree and the Desert. :)
Heads up on the "we’ll only tell you about the... "what we have in stock sales person". Of course they could only show you what they had, but did they make much reference to what they could order too, a clue.
The QS Linestage paired with QS Mid Monos or Mono 60s was the ticket for 86-92db speakers. Mono 120s for harder to drive speakers. The little QS Integrated is nice for lower power more efficient speakers at 20wpc. Unfair comparison other than to learn what a musical amp can sound like. I run the QS Mono 120s for my 93db speakers and it’s a great match. Your Salk Wow1s are 84db, right? (it always starts with the speakers...).
This is where QS Monos start to shine to compete with good SS amps with regard to dynamics, driver control. The Rogue recommendation is what they had in stock, different sound, in your budget. Might be your ticket for the $ excluding comparison to QS Linestage + Mid Monos (you did not hear it yet :), unfair to compare to the the little musical integrated (amazing btw), only when paired with the right efficiency speakers. Same situation.
I find QS Monos are rarely in stock at dealers, usually sold before they get there. Gotta ask the dealer to order/hold them in all fairness. Back to square-1. :) Once you hear a really nice (power equivalent) tube amp to speaker match, you’ll gain much better insight. Patience and persistence can pay off in this instance until you get a chance to really "hear" it. :)
I would talk to Mike Sanders of QS. I have seen the non-remote version described that way on other threads. Much of it would likely be the value of the need for remote. In a small room maybe not so much. Either version represents value. Reasonable price, great company. I have only heard a earlier version lacking remote. I would likely had the QS pre in my system if not for a Friend that was a dealer for Jolida setting me up with mine at cost. Both represent value.
@mesch I would likely had the QS pre in my system if not for a Friend that was a dealer for Jolida setting me up with mine at cost. Both represent value.
Yes, and key question. Not sure which Jolida preamp you have, BUT, have you reached out to them for their I-V upgrades they do? For example, five levels of upgrades to make the preamp sound notably better. My buddy just got all five upgrades (went from upgrade level 2 to level 5) on his Jolida 801 integrated amp, and with all new tubes. Big change. Circuit boards or not, It went from $1000 tube amp sound to $5000 tube amp sound. Replacing low-cost low-grade caps, resistors, and upgraded wiring with really good NOS tubes can help a lot. Again, this is what makes really good point-to-point preamps with really good designs and decent parts, and decent stock tubes, great bargain right out of the gate, in comparison, fwiw.
To give you an idea, from the current Jolida Upgrades page (for fusion): ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Clip:
Fusion Preamp Upgrade I:Replacement of 13 capacitors with Clarity Cap ESAs. Gold pin 12AX7 tubes. Retail Price: $600
Fusion Preamp Upgrade lI: Cardas Input and output RCA Jacks and XLRs (reduces RF interference): Retail Price: $ 450
Fusion Preamp Upgrade III:Addition of the ByBee Rail. Reduces the noise floor by 45dB. Retail Price: $450
Fusion Preamp Upgrade IV:Using extreme purity cast wire. All internal signal wire and power wire is installed. Involves 70 feet of ultra copper cast wire and rewiring the complete unit. Retail Price: $4000
Fusion Preamp Upgrade V:Combination of 8 pieces of Ultra premium copper foil paper in oil Ride or Audyn Capacitors combined with Clarity Poly caps. Retail Price: $2000
Thanks, all, for your reflections. From the get-go, I have not felt a lot of help from this person (nice enough, but young, late 20s or 30s); there’s a kind of impatience with the sales process that makes me feel that I’m over-staying my welcome. It’s a vibe I got. Emails, also, didn’t fully answer my questions — and I did not ask that many. Kept steering me toward what was in stock. Never mentioned other products in the line they actually carry.
@decooney Thanks for the explanation about the non-remote QS. Noted for future reference. Also, they DO have the Quicksilver Mid Mono Amp. Maybe I just suck it up and get QS separates? That would work with any speakers, right?
@tvad After finding myself really psyched about the tube experience, I’m now concerned that you are outlining a real, forced dilemma: give up the speakers or give up the tubes. Or at least give up all-tubes. Some tubes is still possible, if the match is right. Pass labs is beyond my price range and it almost seems silly to outmatch the speakers by so much, no?
Ok, so at this point, it is seeming all-tube QS separates or solid state or still investigating a pair up.
I wish this dealer was a bit better — or at least the salesperson. It’s hard to push away from someone who’s is working with you in the store, but I suppose I could reach out to the owner? Or, as Tvad said, just move on to another dealer or distributor for the QS stuff. (Any recommendations on QS dealers?)
@Tvad, you make an excellent point. And I will definitely think hard about the Pass Labs integrated amplifier. The hard question would be if I’m going tubes or not.
That said, you were making a larger point about investing for the longer term. By rejecting the QS integrated at 20 wpc as under-powered (which I heard yesterday and really enjoyed) I think I’m already starting to enact your advice, but in a cautious piecemeal way. You’re saying, "don’t go half-ass" on what is a sound trajectory — toward quality gear.
My thinking against such a high dollar purchase was that I need to live with solid state or tubes or hybrid for a while before knowing what I really want. Paying $6k or whatever, now, much now makes the experiment feel riskier than paying $3k. I guess it all gets re-sold at some point, though, so best not to dwell on the purchase price.
@decooneyThanks for the explanation about the non-remote QS. Noted for future reference. Also, they DO have the Quicksilver Mid Mono Amp. Maybe I just suck it up and get QS separates? That would work with any speakers, right?
Key Question (speakers): Well, back to square-1 questions. Are you 100% settled on Salk Wow1s, done, and ordered? Its not an issue, need to know for sure to help more.
Personally, in that situation and (IF) you go with Quicksilver, I'd recommend going with the QS Mono 60s (vs Mid Monos) so you have a future-proof upgrade path for larger speakers later. It might happen. I like the QS Mid Monos (partial triode) but they need to be matched with the right speakers, say above 90db. 84db from Salk Wow1s might be better served with QS Mono 60s or Mono 120s, amps alone being beyond your started $3,000 budget. Back to speakers question above.
INITIAL COST vs. Amortized cost over a long term: If you buy the right preamp and amplifier (right from the get-go) - (tube or ss), amortize that initial cost over 10-20 years vs. a five year purchase buying a lesser amp you'll upgrade again in 5 years anyhow. Return on investment also has to do with longevity too, avoiding upgradeitis later. It's not just about the initial purchase price. I ran my last SS amps for 20 years, loved them. Very nice, but not tube though.
@decooney ey Re: Key Question (speakers): "Are you 100% settled on Salk Wow1s" Answer: They are ordered. Not auditioned yet and returnable. I'll have to eat the shipping. A lot of research went into picking them, so I'm really inclined to give them a charitable listen.
Regarding the QS Mono 60s (vs Mid Monos) — Yes. I would do that. I just agreed with Tvad that he's right about not skimping now and paying later. So I'm reaching into the college fund (kidding) and altering my budget. As you point out, this is not just doing something that is good for the speakers, but it is opening the door to change.
As for thinking amortized over initial cost — I'm there with you. I can accept this as an argument. My price limit just got more flexible but it's based on good reasons provided here and not on sales pitches or vanity/luxury bs from a dealer. That's a critical factor for me.
@tvad Re: "Auditioning amplification prior to settling on speakers is an audio merry go around." Answer: Yes, you're right, and I see that it's reaching a terminus. But I'm not that up in the air about speakers — I know I like the Dyns and I suspect I'll like the Salks. But I do need to give it a rest and let the (speaker chips) fall where they may. That said, once I do pick a speaker — high or low sensitivity — the research folks have helped me compile and the listening I've done is still valueable. But you're right if you're saying that I'm at the point of diminishing returns! Time for me to just "cool it."
I had a Schiit Freya pre last year. Sold it as the tube circuit was a bit too noisy for me. Tried different tubes. It's real nice tho. My 100db speakers may have been why. I have a PL amp (not pre) and it's built like tank. Can't go wrong w/PL.
I've bought from Upscale, great service all around. Buy there w/confidence.
You CAN get great sound of your 84db Salk Wow1s If you bought them already. :) Those or most Dynaudio speakers will require some grunt. Looking at 20w integrated amps gives ideas on tube/tone, but not what is needed to get the most out of your Wow1s.
No need to "chill", research is what got you here. However, just be aware underbuying now MIGHT cost you more IF you choose to upgrade again later (speakers or preamps or amps). Good 2nd hand gear is an option too, but you lose "warranty" in most cases. Gotta know what to buy, and buying 1-2 year old gear that someone overlooked is one angle.
Other Options to buy "up": I see people buy (and immediately resale) decent solid state and tube gear and resale in 60 days or less because they 1) don’t burn in tubes, don’t burn in coupling caps, -or- allow the really good SS amp burn in over 300hrs; or simply listen to gear cold (premature judgements) in less than 45 minutes warmup, 2) often use cheap so called "budget" interconnect cables between components that veil over or filter the sound vs. let it through... 3) use oddball preamp and amp combos with mismatched in/out voltage 4) poorly matched speakers for a particular amplifier application, 5) get off track with misinformation.
Something to be said for a good preamplier and amplifier that is designed to work together, right from the designer. This is partly why some folks just go with integrated amplifiers if they are not sure what to do. That’s why I felt the Pass INT-60 might also be an option for you, IF you do not go all-tube preamp and amp.
@tvad I asked Jim that question in early January, when I was buying the speakers. He gave this answer, which I have used to set some basic, minimum standards: "I would look for a minimum of about 100 watts for solid state and 30 watts for a tube amp (the more the better in both cases). The reason is that the way these amps clip is different. The solid state amp will be linear until it reaches its maximum output and then clip, becoming overly bright and edgy. As you increase the gain (volume) with a tube amp, it is linear to a point near its maximum output. As you increase it further, it acts somewhat like a compressor and simply limits the maximum output. So it is “soft” clipping as opposed to “hard” clipping. For that reason, you can get by with less wattage with tube amps. People who love tube amps love the liquid-smooth midrange they provide. But they don’t have quite as tight a grip on the bass. If you want tighter bass, then solid state becomes more attractive. The bottom line, then, becomes “what is more important to you...liquid smooth performance or tight bass performance.” Other than that, as long as the basic amp design is good, wattage becomes the most important (since amps are very accurate compared to speakers)."
Regarding the audition of the speakers, I have Adcom separates at the moment. Jim thought they'd be adequate to try out the speakers. There's a problem of too many variables, here — I cannot choose an amp until I have settle the variable of the speakers, but I cannot choose which speakers while also changing amps. So, I'm going to keep the amp constant — my present one, which I know pretty well — and then pay attention to how Salk speakers sound as compared with Dyns, etc.
Thanks, Scott. Appreciate hearing your experience.
@decooney Yes, I think that's right and it aligns with what Jim Salk said about his speakers. 30w min. on tubes. Noting all you said about buying "up." And I've written to Reno HiFi to know their views and stock in case going solid state was important.
But the INT60 is 60 watts, right? And Jim Salk said 100 watts minimum, right? I suspect the answer for this Pass Labs stuff is going to be in the "not all watts are the same" category — right? So a 60w Pass Labs solid state should be plenty for these Salks. Have I suspected corrected that this is the answer to that question?
While going integrated or matching from the same brand seems the safe route, and one I will probably take, there are numerous experienced folks here who have made a good argument that it can be done. That's why I feel it might be a good way to go.
I've been quite satisfied with my Eastern Electric Pre-amp that I bought from a local dealer no longer in business. I also own an Eastern Electric push-pull 6bm8 tube amp bought used on Audiogon as one of four tube amps I use to power the mids/highs on my K-horns
I can't say enough how satisfied I have been with these pieces that I have owned trouble free for years. This equipment will fit your budget as well.
The distributor for Eastern Electric was/ is Morningstar Audio, Bill O'Connell, 847 255 1150 is the contact info I have.
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