Seriously considering tube preamp…opinions?

But the INT60 is 60 watts, right? And Jim Salk said 100 watts minimum, right? I suspect the answer for this Pass Labs stuff is going to be in the "not all watts are the same" category — right?

Without getting into too far into the weeds, "Yes".

And, once you’ve heard a really great SS amplifier circuit design with larger super-high-quality transformers and capacitors, blah blah, you’ll be amazed how LOUD and FULL it sounds only playing 1.5 to 2.0 watts. A few local mentors showed me long ago why they say "it all starts with the transformers", and why I needed to come over to the tube side too. The truth is, I like both, really great tube amps and really great SS amps, but they are big $.

With Nelson, it seems to be his tenacity to explore different circuits, transistors, great transformers and good parts inside for amazing results. He started as a speaker guy ya know... where my roots came from too.

BUT, matching the right speakers with his amps is key too - and it can vary between the ".5" and latest ".8" version amps. I’ve heard his amps with super popular (unmentioned) high efficiency speakers (normally used with low power tube amps) that truly sounded horrible, like really bad, at an audio show mind you. Was floored how bad it sounded with poor speaker matching.

I bet the INT60 would whip those Wow1s right into confirmation, and much larger speakers too - but follow what @tvad said, ask Mark at Reno HiFi. I would love to run up to Pass (35 minutes away) and see about demoing an INT60 myself later after summer just to do it and compare it with my own custom speakers and my 120w mono tube amps. The only reason I have not is I don’t want to walk out of there with a pair of XA-100.8 mono amps and be hooked. Don’t need it and can’t afford it. Best to stay the heXX away from there. Caution! :)

@decooney Good to know. The match I'll need advice on, if I go this way. You're tempted by the Pass? Wouldn't that be abandoning tubes? Hmmm. Probably should stick with one god if you're a monotheist.

@hilde45 OP175 posts02-23-2020 2:10pm@decooney Good to know. The match I’ll need advice on, if I go this way. You’re tempted by the Pass? Wouldn’t that be abandoning tubes? Hmmm. Probably should stick with one god if you’re a monotheist.

For less money, 1/2 the price, I’ve been able to get amazing 3-dimensional, lush, dynamic (engaging) sound out of very simple design mono tube amps with the right transformers, designed to run KT150 output tubes. Before and after Mosfet SS amps, I was an EL34 tube midrange freak. Now with current KT150 tubes (in the right amp/circuit design) changed the game for me to stay "tube". IMO: those who just put KT150 tubes in a KT88 based amps don’t compare. My amps mainly run KT150s, designed just for KT150s. When biased correctly, all the sudden my Pentode tubes sound like Triode sound with power and dynamics I prefer. The designer is really on to something. Once I added vintage mid 1960s NOS triode Mullard input and driver tubes I was sold, done, game over! The result is quite astonishing and works well with my particular speakers. Again, "matching".

As to your question:
For equivalent solid state amplification "that sound like tube" (for the appropriate speaker/power/impedance i need) I’ve confirmed I’d actually spend 2.5x on the amps alone. Typically I build everything myself, yet in this case and (abilities of my own) I truly respect and recognize the mastermind amplifier gurus who offer something you just gotta buy and enjoy it as is, made by locals in the good old USA. :) 

I bought a used Audible Illusions Modulus preamp at the recommendation of a trusted friend with similar tastes in sound. It’s in very good condition and was upgraded with new caps. I mated it with a Trafomatic  Experience Two. Excellent sounding preamp at a fraction of the cost of all the latest recommended components. There are numerous models of Audible Illusions to choose from on the used market. 

@gotvinyl Thanks, I will go check them out.

+1 gotvinyl

There are two AI version "3.0" units on auction right now at $1200-1300.

A dear friend had one for many years. I always liked that preamp, 6DJ8 tube based too. Quality chassis, nice smooth volume control.  Had a pretty dark background too as I recall.  He ran it with a Roger Majesty RM-9 EL34 tube based amp and Shearwater Hot Rod speakers. Nice smooth tone, non-fatiguing, listened to it many times. He went through a few versions of different tube preamps to get to that one in the "3" version. Very Nice!    

http://www.audibleillusions.com/pricing/

That’s a lot of money for an illusion. Just joking! ;-)

@tvad Sounds like a amp worth selling a kidney for. Then again...Reno Hifi, right?

@tvad @decooney and all,
It's likely this thread is almost exhausted.
I'll just pose one final additional question.
* Assume, for the sake of argument, that you've convinced me to consider high quality solid state as an alternative to tubes. (This is a thought experiment.)
* Assume, also, that you've made me very curious about the Pass Labs INT-60 amp.
* Assume that I've looked into them and find $9000 too much for me, but that you've nudged me up to $6500, tops, for amplification.

QUESTION: Who do you think would be nearly competing, in solid state, with Pass Labs with this maximum price point (for new)?

I'm looking for a short list of makers you consider to be "nearly Pass labs" topping out around $6500, new.

When I look, I see things such as:

First Watt
Bryston
Hegel
Sugden
and many others.

So, in the upper tier, nearly in the same breath as Pass Labs but at a max $6.5k pricepoint, who makes your super short list?

Hide45,  As a way to recap on all the great advise provided across your 3 threads, I propose that, regardless of budget, a sound (pun intended) approach would be:

1) Understand the desired sonic outcome. Experience needed here.

2) Understand the room and have some idea of how system is to be placed within. Part of this is consideration for room treatment. Room is part of the system.

3) Choose speakers that fit the room and desired sonic outcome.

4) Consider the sources to be used in the now, and possibly to be used in the future.

5) Choose amplifier to compliment the room speakers toward the  sonic outcome.

6) If not an integrated amplifier, choose a preamp that compliments the amplifier towards the sonic outcome and supplies the needed inputs/outputs.

7) Choose the source components.

All aspects, 1-6, and budget, should be thought through carefully,   prior to the 1st purchase.  Much of the desired outcome is dependent on 7.  

I understand that this approach is very idealistic, that most of us have constraints that must be complimented in the process, thus rearranging the hierarchy, and often increasing budget.

I advise avoiding the consideration of doubling budget to accommodate speakers without consideration of the system as a whole.

@decooney  I have the Jolida Fusion preamp and have looked up, and followed up with a talk with Mike Allen of Jolida about the possible upgrades. I decided that for the cost, and my desire to go a more simpler, point to point 6sn7 design, looking  for that type pre and selling my Jolida was the best approach. 

On another note, I once had a Audible Allusions 3B preamp. However after deciding a) I wasn't going toward using vinyl as a primary source and I could get by on a lessor phonostage, and b) It had 4 tubes with 2 dedicated to the phonostage I wasn't using, I sold it.

I believe Hide45 is considering digital sources only.

@hilde45,
A few reasons some of us were noting the Pass INT-60, is you were:
-suggesting less efficient (84db) speakers, a bit more required to drive them.
-you seemed to be leaning back to solid state vs. tube amplification.
-uncertain about matching preamps (where this started); complexity.
-your suggestion of posible upgrade to larger Dyn speakers, later on.
-possibly wanting to future-proof your system, avoiding upgrades later.
-us knowing there are used 2nd hand INT-60s out there for decent deals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decide:
#1, Speakers: what speakers you’ll be using next 5 yrs, try to pin it down (changes a lot).
#2, Amps: decide if you like softer tube or SS sound (they are different).
#3, Budget: confirm if your original $3k limit is still a real goal or not (it matters, a lot). 

Sources:
Since you have not committed yet to working with any particular dealer, your options are wide open right now new or used. There are many good dealers who offer new/used. Yes, I agree with tvad, RenoHiFi is one source.

Fyi, you can achieve great sound close to your original $3k goal with (some new or 2nd hand) tube separates and integrateds out there. Several options exist. QS is a no brainer, super value, real tube sound (in your budget range). Now with SS, to achieve real "tube like sound", options are more limited and price goes up again, 2x of your $ goal. AND if you want something new, closer to new, with warranty. Few offer SS that sound closer to tube, already discussed. Pass is a no brainer. Firstwatt, offers less power - speaker matching is key there, as tvad said.

Agree, back to square one - figure out your speakers first, go from there.

@mesch 1,987 posts

02-24-2020 6:45am@decooney I have the Jolida Fusion preamp and have looked up, and followed up with a talk with Mike Allen of Jolida about the possible upgrades. I decided that for the cost, and my desire to go a more simpler, point to point 6sn7 design, looking for that type pre and selling my Jolida was the best approach.

On another note, I once had a Audible Allusions 3B preamp. However after deciding a) I wasn’t going toward using vinyl as a primary source and I could get by on a lessor phonostage, and b) It had 4 tubes with 2 dedicated to the phonostage I wasn’t using, I sold it.

-------------------

I believe Hide45 is considering digital sources only.

Ah, yes, the allure of a 6SN7 based preamp. I sure like mine. :)  But, good 6SN7s are not cheap, as you know.

re: Hilde45 ("digital sources"), really good to know.
>>THIS<< reason alone is what drove me away from Solid State again back to an all tube based system again:
1) Ladder Tube DAC,
2) Tube Preamp,
3) Tube Amplification, +
4) Good 1960s vintage input/driver tubes
5) Great OCC copper interconnects (not silver)

All really helped my system, ridding of all digital grain, no more edge, nice and smooth and lush with absolutely no fatigue. Easy listening to lossless content, back to real music again :)

@tvad I understand about Reno and I do *hear* you on that, and on First Watt and home additions; I’m trying to tease out what folks think are in at least a neighboring zone, quality wise.

@mesch Thanks for the great summation. I think I’m going to print that out and post it. Seriously. Cogent and instructive. I think I have done 1-4, though I have not done "treatments." I’m working on 5 in a "pre-thinking" way because choice of speakers (3) is still TBD. I am considering digital sources only.

@decooney You’ve got the path right about how we got here. I’m still leaning very much toward tubes, but the discussion of solid state lead to comments about how *good* solid state can sound and how well they can produce a musical result with low-sensitivity speakers. So, I’m working on 1 and 2; that’s why budget (3) is getting shoved around a bit — largely via comments about what it takes for really good solid state. I was pretty dogmatic (in earlier replies) to folks suggesting things way above my $3k pricepoint. But then folks (like you) weighed in about solid state, Pass Labs, etc. and it was clear that if I didn't budge my budget upwards, even used would be well beyond me. The Reno site has nothing at the 3k price point, even used, in power.

Thanks for your comments. Back to speakers.

@decooney Yes, I love my Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC. Getting the Aric Pre today, on the Fedex truck heading this way.  Likely one day will have to replace the BEL. Getting a replacement that provides what it does will be tough. Currently looking into the Pass XA25.Also Reno HiFi.  No hurry yet. Have always considered the BEL to be the strongest link in my system. The Tubadour DAC provides appreciation for the source. Soundstage and bloom. On a stricter budget i would consider one of the MDHT DACs.

It was my decision to go digital that drove me towards tubes for source and pre. 

@mesch Interested in the Aric. I had a nice email exchange with him. Curious how things shake out for  you.

Caution: This is a long post :)

Here are some comments concerning amplification that I would add to this excellent discussion, which also have potential implications regarding speaker selection:

First, small box-type two-way speakers (such as those the OP is particularly interested in) are very often designed such that their impedance in the bass and mid-bass regions is significantly lower than their impedance at higher frequencies. The intent being that when such a speaker is driven with a solid state amp the near zero output impedance of nearly all solid state amps will result in greater amounts of power being delivered at low frequencies than at high frequencies (for a given input voltage to the amp), thereby augmenting what would otherwise be a relatively weak response at low frequencies.

Since the output impedances of tube amps vary widely, what that means is that if a tube amp is to be selected for use with such a speaker it should have relatively low output impedance (for a tube amp). And since amplifier output impedance is inversely proportional to damping factor, damping factor should be relatively high (for a tube amp). Otherwise weak bass and over-emphasis of higher frequencies would be the likely result with many and perhaps most such speakers.

If a tube amp is chosen for use with such a speaker I would suggest a damping factor of at least 8, and preferably more. Most or all of the Quicksilver amps that have been discussed meet that criterion. Other tube amps having relatively low output impedances/high damping factors include those made by Audio Research, Music Reference, and McIntosh.

Second, I’ll mention that a bit more than a year ago I purchased a Pass XA25 from Mark at Reno HiFi, and I could not be more delighted with the amp as well as with the purchase experience. It replaced a somewhat older but very highly regarded tube amp, a VAC Renaissance 70/70 MkIII, which I had used for the previous seven years. (That amp cost more than $14K when it was new, ca. 2000). With my particular speakers (Daedalus Ulysses), at least, it comes remarkably close to the VAC with respect to dimensionality, imaging, liquidity, and other traditional fortes of high quality tube amps. It’s a bit less rich sounding than the VAC, but I interpret that as an increase in accuracy, which is fine as far as I am concerned. A caveat, however, is that my speakers are rated at 97.5 db and have an extremely flat and benign impedance curve.

The INT-25 integrated amp of course combines a very similar power amp with a line-stage preamp.

Also, per Stereophile’s measurements the maximum power capabilities of the XA25, the INT-25, and the INT-60 are all within about 1.2 db of each other, into both 4 and 8 ohms. I suspect Mark at Reno will tell you that the XA25 and INT-25 sound better when operating within their “class A envelope” than when asked to provide an amount of power which causes them to transition to AB. The class A envelope for those amps is spec’d as 50 watts peak into 2, 4, or 8 ohms. (That number would be significantly less on the more usual rms basis). However the INT-60 is described as being primarily a class AB amplifier anyway, which leaves class A at 30 watts. (It isn’t clear if that is peak or rms). So all three amps seem roughly comparable in those respects.

Finally, per the following calculator which I referenced in one of your other threads …

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

… Two speakers having 85 db/1 watt/1 meter efficiency, if driven with 25 watts and with a bit of “room gain” factored in, can produce an SPL of 95.3 db at a 10 foot listening distance. 130 watts (Stereophile’s measurement of the XA25’s capability into 4 ohms, which is a bit higher than that of the INT-25 and INT-60) would produce 102.5 db. Both those numbers are probably sufficient for most users on most or all of their recordings, but will be marginal **at best** for some listeners on some of their recordings, particularly those having very wide dynamic range (such as some classical symphonic recordings which have been engineered with minimal or no dynamic compression).

All of which, IMO, reinforces the notion of considering higher efficiency speakers. Especially given that the OP already has a sub, which would help to compensate for the tradeoff that often exists between the efficiency and the deep bass extension of a speaker, for speakers that are of similar physical size.

Best regards,
--Al

Almarg, thanks for the post. Informative as always. Matching tips are so appreciated.

It also reminds me of why I posted (in another thread) asking about the value of the crossover control on the Parasound — the ability to delimit the frequencies assigned to the speakers (and assigned to the sub, instead) was something Salk himself thought could work well with his little 84 db speakers. He didn't say it was necessary, but he accepted it as a way of doing things.

It may well be I wind up doing some speaker shootouts which result in a higher efficiency speaker. For now, I clicked with the Dyns and I expect to give the Salks a real chance. Everything I read about them was phenomenal. But there are other fish in the ocean. A higher efficiency speaker would really open things up, but for the moment, I cannot accept that as a directive given that there’s good evidence on the side of the speakers on my shortlist.

One parameter is budget. Is this Atma or Ear in the neighborhood of $3k?

@hilde45  We make a 6SN7-based preamp that as a line stage is $1900.00. It is single-ended. We also make balanced preamps (and were the first to do so) but they retail for more than you budget. But we've been making them a long time so you might be able to find one used within your budget. We can refurbish and re-warrant any of our older products.

Thanks, @atmasphere . I went to your website and took a look. Difficulty was that of the 9 dealers you list, none list prices for almost anything. (I think I found 1 dealer listing 1 price.) This makes it very hard to know what's in the realm of possibility for me. I realize that dealers want to keep things on the down low to work deals with customers, etc., but I'm completely in the dark about what your stuff costs.

@mesch 1,990 posts

02-24-2020 7:38am@decooney Yes, I love my Audio Mirror Tubadour DAC. Getting the Aric Pre today, on the Fedex truck heading this way. Likely one day will have to replace the BEL. Getting a replacement that provides what it does will be tough. Currently looking into the Pass XA25.Also Reno HiFi. No hurry yet. Have always considered the BEL to be the strongest link in my system. The Tubadour DAC provides appreciation for the source. Soundstage and bloom. On a stricter budget i would consider one of the MDHT DACs.

It was my decision to go digital that drove me towards tubes for source and pre.

If you like the sound of the BEL (many do, nice), and it works well with your Aric Pre and the non-oversampling Tubadour DAC, can't help but think you have a nice combo there. You could replace the main caps in your amp (if/when needed) go through it, try some nice vintage tubes in the DAC, ya never know might be well set for a while! There are a few amps I wish I had kept, yet trying something else is fun too :)

My system is likely to remain stable up to the point of the speaker binding posts for several years. Over the next couple years I will be looking into other speakers. Any consideration for a amplifier change would occur thereafter.  

to: @hilde45  

One last recommendation.  Set your budget limit -or- this will be a long roller coaster ride for you and others making recommendations for you.  

Short answer:
Total system = $11-12k max.
Amplification = $5-6k max

Longer answer: I agree that I'm indicating ambivalence. Here's where I am, budget wise — I have shifted above my initial budget above $3k because of:

(a) desire for tubes, possibly all the way
(b) desire not to be buying again in 5 years
(c) desire for headroom
(d) desire for quality

This dialogue and other research has helped me establish these criteria as necessary and has indicated that the picking might be slim in the sub-$3k region. Maybe not, but I'm sensing that.

My ambivalence stems from concerns about overkill. I have gotten more comfortable with $5k on amplification if no overkill. I'd love to meet the above criteria for less -- but again, no overkill.

What is overkill, you ask? I'd say that until I find myself deep in this hobby 5 years from now, I will not be spending more than $11-12k total on this system. I don't want to get into a long discussion about proportions of spending (I'm reading the Harley book, I've seen lots of pissing matches on this topic); I'm grounded in the fact that I have heard speakers and a sub I like that will run to about $3500-$4000.

That said, I won't spend more than $6k. I cannot believe that given where I am with this hobby, that'd be necessary or something that would sit right with me. And as you can see, going so quickly to nearly double my upper limit of $3k has made me nervous. But I can get there w/ the right criteria and deal.

but I'm completely in the dark about what your stuff costs.

We make a 6SN7-based preamp that as a line stage is $1900.00.

@hilde45

The line stage of my prior comment above is the UV-1.  Were you planning to run a balanced preamp or single-ended (the UV-1 is single-ended).

Thanks! I am not sure. I'll correspond with you off this thread.

@tvad  Wow! I cannot do an all tubes amplification combo for a 84db bookshelf for 5-6k? That's not total system cost, just amplification. Hmmm. 

Ok, Tvad. I'll think about those!
At the moment, I thought I might be able to do (at the least) something from Quicksilver, e.g. $1295 QS Line stage preamp + $2995 60 QS Watt Mono (60 watts) = $4290
and I thought there were others in my notes which could get in under $6k, but I have to go dig them out.

@hilde45 

Have you looked into the Rogue gear?  The ST-100 and one of their preamps would work well with your gear and you should be able to strike a deal somewhere plus the re-sale is good. 

From a specification standpoint I don’t see any issues pairing the Quicksilver Line Stage and 60 watt mono amps with low efficiency speakers such as the Salk WOW1, provided that peak SPLs in the mid to upper 90s at the listening position are sufficient for your purposes.

The high damping factor (20) of the amp, which corresponds to a very low output impedance for a tube amp, seems fine for use with such speakers with respect to the tonal effects I referred to earlier that can result from amp/speaker impedance interactions.

If the speakers were much more efficient (e.g. in the mid to upper 90s) I would be a bit concerned that the high gain of the preamp (18 db) might limit the useful range of the volume control to very low settings. But that seems very unlikely with 84 db speakers.

I have no experience with Quicksilver products, so I can’t comment on their sonics. But the impression I’ve gained from comments by others that I’ve seen here and elsewhere over the years has been very favorable.

As Tvad said, "go for it!"

Best regards,
-- Al

@almarg Thank you for taking a closer look at the specs. I've saved that information for down the road!
@jackd thanks for the Rogue tip.
@Tvad, I was thinking about what you said — the list available with the criteria I listed (well-known, easy to re-sell, under $6k, mates well with the 84db speakers to good listening levels, new, and not from boutique).

So, what can I compile from my notes?

IF I accept the minimum watts for driving the 84 db speaker to what Jim Salk indicated (at least 30 wpc for tube), I get the following list:

Black Ice F360 Hybrid tube preamplifier $1995.00 + Fusion F35 Tube Integrated Amplifier (60wpc) $1,999 = $3994
Cary SLI-80HS integrated amplifier 40 wpc $4495
Erhard-Audio Power Amps "Basie" 38wpc $1850
McIntosh MA252 hybrid $3500 100 wpc
Prima Luna EVO 400 tube Integrated amp 38 or 70 wpc $4999
Quicksilver $1295 QS Line stage preamp + $2995 60 QS Watt Mono (60 watts) = $4290
Quicksilver pre and Mono 120 Amplifier (120 watts), $3995 + $1295 = $5290
Rogue Audio Sphinx v3 tube Integrated Amplifier 100 wpc $1,595.00
Rogue Cronus Magnum tube integrated 100 wpc $3000
Schiit Freya+ and Vidar $1498 ($899 + $699)

I left off deHavilland Ultraverve because I don't know what it would pair with. But it might get together w/ something good for less than $6k

So, that's the list I came up with. I suspect that a couple of these might get eliminated by some additional scrutiny (e.g. you might think they're not quite at the quality level or easy to sell, etc.).

Anyway, I'm just trying to collect my thoughts and would be interested in what you, others, folks would add or subtract.

@tvad Yes, I think you’re right. That helps limit things a lot. Where does one get VAC? I am having trouble locating it.

I found a couple others to add to the list. Any thoughts?

• Van Alstine Fet Valve CF RB $1,599.00 + Fet Valve 400R (200 watts) $2899 = $4498
• PATHOS LOGOS MKII TUBE HYBRID INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER 100w $4995
• PATHOS LOGOS MKIII TUBE HYBRID INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER 70w $2995
• MANLEY STINGRAY II 32wpc $5900 (not enough watts with this extra criterion)

@tvad Why not van alstine? Pathos is too boutique-y, right?
Also, where does one get VAC? I am having trouble locating it.

Thanks
Van alstine not high, eh?

Hilde45,
the VAC 100/100 tvad is referring to is on Agon now. Combo ad of preamp and amp together. 11 hours left on ad.

tvad,
I noticed your prior VAC PHI 200 recommendation above (quad of 6SN7) input/drivers and VAC 100/100 with 12AU7s input/driver tubes. Nice gear, I like VAC too, yet never looked under the hood and cannot find photos. Somehow the VAC engineers have been able to make a $45,000 VAC statement sound good with re-issue TungSol 6SN7s, amazing, they sound rounded off and less musical in my Cary preamp. Boutique and vintage NOS sound way better, big$, had to hoard away four quads of vintage 6SN7s, argh. Hats off to VAC designers if they can make re-issue tubes sound good.  i.e. now we see amps going to 12AU7s too..

By chance do you know, Is it all 100% point-to-point wiring or any circuit boards under the cover of the VAC amps?

Aha. Will look. One more: VTL IT-85 Integrated Amplifier 60wpc New $5250.00

@tvad , all: I went back and read the last few pages of this long thread and really appreciate all the advice. I do regret that in some ways, my posts occasionally ran people in circles — reiterating good advice to me that had already been given, with sufficient clarity! My apologies.

* I now have a very, very short list of tube amps to drive inefficient speakers.
* I now have a very, very short list of solid state amps to drive inefficient speakers.
* I have some very powerful advice to reconsider buying inefficient speakers.

Since I am not fiscally committed yet, I can keep this in mind as I audition the Salks vs. Dynaudios.

Given the above lesson that "tube speakers love efficient speakers," the only question I'm left with as I keep the inquiry into more efficient speakers is a simple question:

At what *starting* level of db sensitivity does the choice of quality all-tube amplification open up? 88db? 92 db? more? (I suppose I'm not thinking of the tiny-watt tube systems, but things that are up to 35-40 wpc)
[Context for the question are the earlier parameters: listening at modest volume (85db), room (450sq ft), genres (classical/jazz/rock), digital sources, comfortable headroom]