Seeking advice on Speakers that create an intimate 2 channel listening experience
So the past month I started a couple of threads on speaker choice on AVS forum (One asked for Powered/Active floor standing Speaker choices and another one around non-active FS speakers for a tube amp I was looking at).
But I've come to realize this was the wrong tact, got lots of flack much deserved and wanted to try to solicit the advice/opinions on this forum which I just discovered.
Short background...Hunkered down in a suburb just outside NYC now for the past 3-4 months, I started to get the itch for a dedicated 2 channel stereo Turntable setup in our living room in May. After much research and twists and turns and immediate upgraditis, as some know on here from other posts, I've finally settled in and now own a Rega Planar 10 Turntable. I also own a Sutherland phono --20/20 with LPS and that's staying. Right now the phono preamp is hooked up direct to a pair of ELAC ARF51 floorstanding speakers (all drivers powered by built in AB amps) which I like a lot BUT ITS HERE THAT I WANT MORE. Btw, I love the ELAC design of mounting the tweeter concentric in the mid driver -- makes sense to me. I kinda wish ELAC would take the same design and make a reference speaker but thats for another day.
So to swap out the ELACs, I will obviously need an amp, but I will figure that out later and want to focus on getting the right speakers for me for what I want. So what do I want?
1. Floorstanders. Close to full range as possible. No subs. 2. Looks count since in my main living room. 3. Speakers that prioritize Imaging Imaging Imaging. That disappear in the room creating an intimate but 3D listening experience. Clean (Accurate) warm sound. No distortion. I would easily sacrifice low end for untiring highs and warm mids I don't listen to metal or hiphop anymore so I don't need loudness, more like lounge experience if that makes sense. Apologize if I got the adjectives wrong but its personal description of what I'm seeking. 4. Price Point - -$10k-25k. Room is 22x18 with 25 foot ceiling
I would like to audition/demo before I buy and since I live in the Tri-State area it should be possible. But I'm finding that obviously difficult to do right now. I listened to a pair of Salk speakers but didn't love them. And have an appt with the Audio Doctor in NJ in two weeks.
Consider Magnanpan speakers! Choose to demo ones that fit your room! I use the 1.7i in a 15 x 30 dedicated and treated listening room. They are intimate enough to reach out and touch the instruments! I have a 2.1 set up that sounds stunning! Remember amplification and source is just as in important with any speakers you choose..let your ears be the judge! Good luck in your quest and keep us posted!
For some reason the admin deleted my response maybe because I cursed slightly but whatever. So while Quads were at the top of my list, there are 3 reasons why they won't work for me.
1. The Quads would be placed no more than 2-3 feet away from a back wall of all windows and I called Quad and their own technical guy told me, with this particular dipole design, it could be a huge mistake and didnt recommend that placement (but that's all that works in my room).
2. The used Quads like the 2912 and its smaller sibling had major issues and were falling apart so Quad had to fix probably everything imported into the US, and then stopped importing to fix the issue; I heard they will be importing again towards End of summer/Fall, so I wouldnt want to risk even $5k on a defective product even if refurbished.
3. Perhaps the biggest issue is that my fiancee took one look at them and said quote, "I'm pretty tolerant with all your audio stuff, but there is no way you are putting these things in my living room" unquote but with a few expletives left off.
Get a used pair of the latest Quad ESL's for about $5K. Add a used Pass amp and you're done! The new Quad's beat all dynamic speakers for imaging and transparency!
At the $10-25k price point, I think aesthetics, service and how you connect with your dealer are just as important as the sound. Fortunately there are numerous dealers in the greater NYC area. The only question is how exhaustive you intend your search. I went to quite a few in NYC and the key thing for me was dealer rapport. You have to find someone you think gets your taste and whom you trust.
Most of those very expensive speakers are way over priced to begin with! Opened up a pair of B&W 801s many years ago and could not believe the cheap crossover parts used. Same for Snell CV awesome sound from vey poor parts and cheap drivers. Most of the cost for advertising, shows, dealer markup, are rolled into the high price tag. Then there is the psychological aspect of “Hmmm if they are that expensive they must be awesome...” My mantra is sift through the hype and always listen before you buy!!!
It is crazy how discounted used speakers generally are, similar to a car once you drive it off the lot and then when start to add miles, especially when newer models come out. Case in point, Raidho speakers. People who can afford Raidho seem to typically trade after just a couple years as newer models come in and sell the older versions for like 60-70 percent off. Raidho D3.1's which are 70k speakers selling for under 25k on audiogon/ebay/hifishark. There's a guy on the same sites selling his 107k msrp YG Acoustics A Anat Reference II for 25k. And he lives on Long Island. I should just rent a Uhaul and be done with it. Lol . Of course its not without its risks.
Do you like small, intimate music/jazz clubs? Do you prefer to sit mid-hall at a live music event? How about desiring to hear the music between the speakers (with depth and slightly beyond the outside of the speakers)? If you answered yes, then you owe it to yourself to hear a pair of used Spendor S8e speakers.
I have two pair and I will never sell them. I've owned the Spendor SP-100, SP1/2e; heard a pair of SP2/3e, and others. I sold them all and kept only the SP1, and SP2/2. If you want the ultimate in imaging and intimacy but are willing to sacrifice low end impact, although bookshelves, the SP2/2 are terribly underrated. In my opinion, they deserve the cult following over the LS3/5A. I have the Harbeth HL5, which I do like for a couple of reasons, but they are overrated in some regard. However, I won't sell them because of their versatility. Well, I would sell them and one pair of my S8e's to help finance a pair of Tannoy Westminster Royal.
If you can find a pair of the very musical and handsome Spendor S8e floor-standing speakers to start your experiment, try them out and you might just find another use for your hefty speaker budget.
Some people here have suggested used speakers. I have gotten some fantastic speakers at some crazy good low prices. Especially when it's the exwife or daughter selling off there hubby's or dads stuff.Craigslist,letgo I have found speakers Allison's,Klipsch, Martin Logans ,Jbls,Polk,Tannoy,Kef,SonusFaber,B&W and many more at crazy prices.True some,need a wire soldered, or Surrounds replaces ,or need to be refinished but when you get a pair of speakers that list for thousands for less than $200 OR $100 or even FREE.Im not a person who would ever buy $250,000 even if I had the money.The joy in getting a pair cheap that sound good that's my thing.
@yuvalg9 Thx Yuval. I should have been more specific but I do currently own the Navis ARF51 which is an active but all analog designed tower for $4600 pair. You cited the ARB51 which is the smaller bookshelf at $2,300 a pair not $16,000 lol. I even reached out to Mr. Jones to see if he had any interest in designing a no compromise Reference Navis model but never heard back.
I’m familiar with Triton but they are not an all active design just the subwoofer is powered which is pretty common these days. In fact it was Sandy Gross owner of Triton who designed one of the first powered sub enclosed tower speakers with passive radiators when he owned Def Tech. Cheers
AJ523, I am not surprised that you like your ELAC's so much. Andrew Jones designs superb speakers - he used to work for TAD (and designed they're (forgot the model) reference speakers - cost $80,000 at the time - which are still considered some of the best speakers ever made. He also had a long tenure with KEF, and helped with the design of their (famous!) concentric tweeter. If you'd like to stick with active speakers - (and you are so right about this!), I suggest the ELAC NAVIS ARB51 ($16k/pr). Otherwise, I agree with the recommendation of the Goldenear Triton Reference - they are also active 'speakers, with 1800 watts of internal amplification, and very smart use of passive radiators (in lieu of a conventional bass-reflex port, which always suffers from some 'chaffing noise'. Otherwise, I do agree that bookshelf speakers tend to 'disappear' in the room more so than Floorstanders; I recommend you check out the new Magico S1's (A bookshelf model, cost (give or take) $12,600/pr, which is within your budget. Cheers, Yuval.
Boy is that room ugly! A modern crappy rug with a syrupy Romantic painting and to top it off; a clock over the painting! That said, the system is nice...
At your price range you would be hard pressed to pick a BAD speaker.
Imaging was your dominant concern and goal, imaging can be found in dealer showrooms. So I would go to as many show rooms as possible and listen for the speakers imaging. basically road trip
Please take notes, is the imaging forward or is deep, how many subs were used during test and rate their looks and get their minimum distance from back and side walls and lastly how big are they.
All these issues and possible more impact your enjoyment after your purchase.
Once you make your choice you will now have to find the optimal location for your room. This is not simple or quick and I would recommend dealer help. I would also recommend looking at MiniDsp.com, Their products will help dialing your system in for your room, and any dealer worth their salt will know how to use this tool.
At your price range your music source will play a major role in your enjoyment. The major problems with an excellent system is that you can actually hear more than before including all the issues related to bad recordings. I would highly recommend an external dac as part of your system. the RME ADI-2 DAC is a good reference point to evaluate dacs. If HDMI is needed look at the Bryston Dacs which is one of a few that offers and HDMI connection.
Biggest point is, your Room is 50% of what you hear from your system, getting your system setup in your room is critical to getting the best sound out of any system.
As for a speaker recommendation that would be Ohm Walsh https://ohmspeaker.com/speakers/beta/ They are known for their imaging and sound no matter where you are standing or setting, a rarity for a lot of speakers. They also have their own sub line. Also you can call them and they will help dial in your speaker to your room ( based on shape and cubic volume) before it is shipped. Also the allow you a 120 trail period to make sure they work for you. Style is it only weakness for some people.
Charney Audio in Somerset NJ will give you exactly what your looking for. Engage in intimate 3D listening with articulate bass from a well designed and constructed work of art. If you drive or take mass transit Charney will accommodate you. Contact Brian and set up an appointment it will be well worth your time. http://charneyaudio.com/
Some OP nostalgia.... Around 1991 after I graduated college, I bought my first pair of speakers at the Listening Room in Scarsdale NY.
There I auditioned, eyes closed, 4 sets of speakers all in the same price range -- Thiel, Mirage, Snell and Def Tech BP10. I don’t remember the model numbers for the first 3, because I wound up buying the BP10’s. That bipolar sound, whether a gimic or not, had me at hello some 30 years ago. I think the other 3 are no longer making speakers and Def Tech has cheapened their line in my opinion since the 1990’s. The Listening Room closed up shop years ago. Times change, but I’d like to do a similar thing with at least 4 speakers again.
P.S. I paired it with a Pioneer Elite receiver from the Listening Room (I think Dolby Surround had just been introduced), and that receiver was a tank, it was beautiful and never an issue (It was over $1k at the time) so I kept it for 30 years, rarely used, and only recently gave it away in full working order.
If anyone is keeping score, it just goes to show how silly but profound my post was. Whether the recommendation came from a dealer, distributor, boutique manufacturer, engineer, or plain enthusiast/audiophile, the responses meeting my criteria (which lets face it wound up being a "best of the best floorstanders" under $25k) yielded almost 50 responses, so far.
I'm not even sure how all these speaker manufacturers stay in business (God bless them). A few picks like Harbeth or Yamaha aren't floorstanders but got so many nods they make it on the list FWIW. How does one even approach this other than listen to what they can and then make a decision?
Here's the tally in no particular order as of July 10th
1. Devore Orangutan 093, 096 (and Gibbon X) 2. Tektan (Moab, Double Impact, Ulfberht) 3. Spendor 100/200 or D's 4. Gershman Acoustic Grand Avant Garde 5. Harbeths 6. Tannoy (Kensington), Revolution XT8F, Cantebury 7. Vandersteen 8. Boenicke W11SE 9. Raidho C2.2, C3.2 10. Avantagarde Zero 11. Wilson Yvette/Sabrina 12. Horning Eufrodite 13. Magnepan 14. Magico S1MKII,S3MKII and A5 15. Legacy Audio Aeris/Focus XD 16. ATC SCM XXXX 17. SoundLab Electrostatics 18. NOLA KO's 19. Bache Audio 20. Audio Physic Tempo 21. Jern 22. Martin Logan 23. Sonus Faber Olympica Nova 24. Spatial Audio X3, X5, M3 25. Audio Note E 26. Pure Audio Project 27. Neuphor 28. Joseph Audio 29. Wharfedale Elysium 4 30. Zu Audo 31. Vienna Acoustics The Music (Used) 32. Dali Epicon 6 or 8 33. Soundlabs Electrostatic 34. Yamaha NS5000 35. Daedalus Apollos 36. Fyne 701s 37. Dynaudio Contour 60i(take your pick), Special 40s 38. Revel Salon 2/Studio 2 39. Audio Physic Avanti II 40. Audiokinesis Azel (Duke!) 41. ProAc K6 Signature 42. Focal Jm Lab Utopia 43. Janszen Valentina P8 44. KEF Blade 2 45. QUAD Electrostat
Yes but on the other hand even audiophiles ought to know speakers do not create an intimate listening experience. Speakers REcreate whatever is on the recording. If its intimate and the speakers are any good then they will recreate the intimate experience. If the speakers create an intimate experience regardless of what is on the recording they are inexcusable crap as far as audiophile speakers go.
So what are you looking for? Good speakers? Or a one-trick pony?
Low to medium power tube amps excel at delivering just the sort of captivating natural sounding low level detail that makes intimate recordings hair-raisingly real. So it will help if your speakers are high sensitivity, and with easy to drive impedance. There's a bunch of them that fit the bill.
To me it means a warm sound, not analytical, that can be played at low levels with all the nuance. Involving is a good synonym.And above all else not boomy on the low end and not piercing on the high
There's one company with a whole range of excellent choices that owners describe in almost these exact terms. Highly efficient too.
@iopscrl C’mon dude. Pick the speakers first, then match the amp. Golden rule. Even electrical amp engineers told me that one. BUT if I had to lean in a direction, it would be towards a tube amp, since I spent the better part of 25 years swapping solid state amps in and out of my home theater.
Janszen Valentina P8 (passive) or A8 (active). They are floorstanding, inconspicuous, provide plenty of bass (depending on positioning), and image til the cows come home. Available for home trial.
Unfortunately the Web site doesn’t currently have a page on the P8. But you can email or call, and David Janszen will get back to you.
You can find reviews under "Janszen Valentina" and also under the previous name "Janszen zA2.1".
The larger Spendors or Sonus Fabers can be both warm and inviting, yet also high in resolution and imaging ability. You'd never guess it by looking at them but the aforementioned Spendor SP100s are capable of incredible imaging when setup correctly. Allegedly they somewhat reduced the hot tweeter voicing in the new .2 D series.
If you didn't have a stipulation of full-range, I could recommend many other models and brands.
@flatblackround As I’ve been given over 40 speaker choices claiming to all be "the be all end all", Hijack away! As the OP, I’ll start off. To me it means a warm sound, not analytical, that can be played at low levels with all the nuance. Involving is a good synonym..And above all else not boomy on the low end and not piercing on the high. And yes if the pair were female (in my case) well then....
The adjective “intimate” is used by the OP and several of the respondents. I’m wrestling with this in terms of describing loudspeakers. I love my gear, but so far I haven’t been intimate with any of the various components. (That’s a joke, so just let it go!) I believe it is more useful in describing various types of music and performances than an attribute of a speaker. “Musicality” and “involving” come to mind. I thought about perspective, but that is mostly recording related. I don’t mean to hijack the thread, but audiophile terms are interesting and can be confusing. What does this mean to you?
Try Salk Audio. Jim Salk sells direct so he can afford to build better cabinets and add better drivers and crossovers. They are simply amazing and will blow Spendor out of the water. I know the dealers that participate in this discussion would not like to hear this, but wait until you hear his speakers and compare them to speakers two to three times more expensive.
For what it’s worth, there actually has been some science done on room size. The School of Acoustics at Salford University (UK) has done a quarter million simulations to determine optimal ratios. Your room ratios look good. I suggest that you look up their site.
Your windows are a real wild card, but the simulations give you a place to start. For the record, I have owned Magnepan, Logan hybrid, and Quad ESL’s, and now use modern Quad ESL’s exclusively with class A solid state.
WOW, lots of advice. I have a pair of Tannoy Revolution XT8F that I love. They are $1,350. each (pretty much everywhere). I would spend more on an amp. You want an intimate experience? You can't go wrong with a Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP integrated amp. The Tannoys love the tube amps. I have Primaluna Dialogue 7 monoblocks driving mine. Sound fantastic at low and high volumes. The amp runs $4,400. Your turntable and 20/20 phono preamp will do great with the tubes.You didn't mention cartridge but I think the turntable come with an Apheta 3 which will give you the balance you want with the tube amp.
You really ought to listen to a pair of Wilson Audio Sabrinas. Wilson makes the best speakers in the world, and builds on decades of experience doing so. The most affordable of their floor standers, the Sabrinas are on a whole other level than most of the competition. Wilson has sold more than all other Gigi speaker manufacturers combined with good reason! Unlike some manufacturers, the quality and technology implemented in the top end speakers are also used in the bottom. While their impedance dips to ~ 3 ohms, they are not terribly difficult to drive - I’ve heard gorgeous results with a 20 Watt Luxman Class A integrated amp and even surprisingly good results with the modest Parasound Hint6. Nobody can match Wilson for low distortion! It is related to how they look - the X material and other materials in the cabinet damp virtually all vibrations coming anywhere other than the intended directions, but require automotive style finishes. Also worth considering, but not remotely close in bass, are the Paradigm Personas. they have extremely high resolution, but can’t match the Wilsons in dynamics, naturalness or bass.
Duke, agree with everything you say above. For clarity, I didn’t describe an OB/Dipole sub as a line source, rather that such a sub behaves like a line source loudspeaker in the matter of SPL drop off as listening distance changes. Even the mighty Infinity IRS suffers from that weakness. It uses a column of woofers (servo-feedback controlled) in a sealed enclosure for bass, a large "wing" with line sources of EMIM’s and EMIT’s for mids and highs. Again, the balance between the woofers and the m/t drivers changes as listening distance increases and decreases.
Your idea of reversing the polarity of one or more subs in an DBA is a great one. Danny Richie displays at shows with a pair of OB/Dipole subs at the loudspeaker end of the room, a pair of sealed subs at the other, their polarity reversed.
Rythmik’s Brian Ding prefers sealed subs to the OB/Dipole, liking as do you the pressurizing of the room the former provide. He finds the OB to sound too lean, without enough weight. Others view that weight as too plump, or fat. Each to his own! To my ears, the OB/Dipole Sub sounds very much like the bass panels in the Magneplanar Tympani bass panels (which I also own), still considered by some as the best reproducer of instruments like bass drum, upright bass, cello even, the lower piano and organ registers, etc., ever offered to the consumer. Some feel the same about the bass produced by the Apogee full range ribbons, which I've never heard.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
