Searching for the most "accurate" speaker (below 15K)

Any thoughts on Polk Audio LSiM 707 speakers (1995.95 each)?

Interesting that Dave hears more detail from the Persona than the ATC. The ATC is commonly used for mixing, where that’s of paramount importance. For my taste, ATC is probably more detailed than I prefer for home hifi use, since half my record collection is mediocre sounding, but that’s a different kettle o fish, altogether. The Persona certainly sounds like it would be worth an audition.

Cswood, believe it or not the Polk LSim 707 is a nice sounding speaker it is not exceptional but does a lot of things well for the money. We got a pair in trade and I was actually suprised how musical they are.

Martykl, the Beryilium drivers just have a clarity that brings in little details like breaths, and cimbals, and macro details that are just masked in most other speakers. 

The best drivers we ever heard are the Diamond drivers from Acution which have  a smoothness with detail that is excpetional the next best drivers are the Persona drivers, which create this immense soundstage with detail that is just remarkable, these speakers do require careful matching of ancellories of they can be a bit too forrward for some tastes.

ATC are very smooth if they are sounding bright than it is something in your system possibly cables, source, or your electronics. 

We show the ATC SCM 11, and the SCM 19 we have also had a pair of the 40s which sound like a bigger version of the 40 and in all of our setups the sound is great. 

We show them on Naim alot and the match is fantastic,  with Wireworld Silver Eclipse speaker cables which has both great detail and has great bass heft, we have compared these cables to both AQ and Nordost cables and the Wireworld's were far better at the same price. 

Dave owner 
Audio Doctor NJ

surprised no one has mentioned the Sanders 10e speaker system. To my ears its probably the most neutral/ accurate speaker YMMV.

Good choice, rsf507. I've mentioned the Sanders ESLs in other threads, and love them myself. I heard them at the S. CA show a couple of years ago, and thought they provided the best sound at the show.

Comments regarding Electrostats- audio doctor Way out of Touch .
I own conventional Loudspeakers as well as New Martin Logan powered 
 24 bit DSP and room correction And powered subwoofer dual  units.  The purity of the stat panel  and speed of 
Attack is  second to none. Conventional drivers mass is much heavier ,,thst bring said no drivers are perfect for everyyhing.
And there us no compression what so ever.especially If kept under 100 db output 
Which I always do. This is hearing damage over 90db. If you don't own them ,or spent a lot of time in a properly setup room then your statement is not worth much.your opinion is just that .they are in the Class-A rating in TAS magazine so they must be doing something right . I have heard many  top speakers sound not to good  especially at shows.as far as Dealer comments, Dealer have No business giving opinions on gotims for they have A bias agenda to begin with. 

Seems like this thread has been hijacked by Audio Dealers who believe they sell the ultimate speakers.
The way to decide is simply go listen for yourself. Everything sounds great to someone out there. Listen, then buy.
Purchasing $15,000 Speakers is a big decision for most folks, do your due diligence by listening for what rocks your boat. 

Go to the warsaw show.

There will be show deals.

Hear everything there is, get the best deal.

Only three weeks away.

Look at who is going to be there, and make the rounds to the rooms you think will hold promise.

Make a choice, make them an offer. Show deals are usually the best deals you'll ever see, as some of them (the given equipment), will have to be shipped to lands far away.... so it is best to let them go at the given show. Be ready to pay immediately and take possession immediately.

I don’t think you’ll get a better, more perfectly timed opportunity in the next year.

The Personas are very good speakers which Audiotroy has been selling all over Audiogon. I've heard them on 3 occasions, including at Audiotroy's set up at the NY Audio show. Audiotroy later said it was the room there, but it wasn't the room as I heard the same issue at another dealer in the showroom. The Personas are very nice, very dynamic but a bit bright and hard IMHO. They use all beryllium tweeters which have a "sound" as all materials do. Listen to the ATCs. Listen to the Personas. I think you will find as I do that the ATCs sound more natural and, to me, more like real music.

Grgr4blu, your comments are based on hearing them at one show, which dealer did you hear them at and what were they using? Your negative bias against the Personas is more based on your issues with us.

The Personas now have three outstanding reviews, Tone Audio, TAS, and Soundstage, and so far not one of these noted reviewers said the speakers are too bright, they are howerver, extremely revealing so if this other dealer was not using the right stuff of course you would not be blown away. Our setup  at the New York audio show was not bright at all, we played loud and most people raved over the sound. 

As per ATC vs Personas we sell both and they both are great but totally different and by the way Vermeer lives in Europe so we are not going to be selling him anything!

Vermeer has heard the speakers and loves them, they will also work in a small room with the 3f.  

Audioman58 haven't heard those Martin Logans, all the others in the past sounded great in some ways, but had issues. No speaker is perfect. 

The large soundstage of the ML is great, I have yet to hear a set of any panels image the way a good set of dynamics speakers do, the Wilsons, Paradigms, and Rockports all create an image that can be very life like
most panels produce an image which is too large without the image specifitiy that that the best dynamic speakers do.

I get the impression that few posters realize that under 20 sq m is actually a very small room, both to physically fit some of the larger speakers, and to make them sing without room modes. 20 sq m = 215 sq feet.

Exactly, this is al about pairing a good speaker to the room. A natural sounding speaker that is 8’ tall is going to sound incredibly bad if it over pressurizes the room.

Small rooms can sound amazing but you approach needs to be different. This is an intimate, out of body listening room in my opinion. You need to pair speakers that will align with that approach.

You don’t want to listen to concert level SPLs in that sized room (IMHO).

What about a nice nearfield powered monitor like the Focal CMS 40 or bigger brother? Perfectly matched amps, some eq and damping, and then spend on our source?

I get the impression that few posters realize that under 20 sq m is actually a very small room, both to physically fit some of the larger speakers, and to make them sing without room modes. 20 sq m = 215 sq feet.

True. However, regarding making them sing without room modes, if I recall reading elsewhere on this forum and other sites, given the option between a larger and smaller speaker, larger is preferable from a sound quality perspective. If my understanding is incorrect, I'm sure others will chime back in and impart their knowledge.

Depending on what you mean by large, you are wrong. Room modes are peaks (and nulls) at the resonance frequencies of the room. The smaller the room, the higher the frequency this occurs. Hence, using big speakers with a lot of low frequency output is asking for trouble.
There are five ways to deal with this:
1 use a bigger room
2 use bass traps (hard and ugly in a small room)
3 avoid low frequencies altogether, by using mini monitors (the only possiblility in really small rooms).
4 smoothen them by using multiple subwoofers
5 equalize them

In a small room the best way to proceed I think is a combination of the last three options. Multiple small subwoofers can give you enough extension for anything other than mega bang HT, and are a lot smoother than two main speakers. They can be located discreetly for best bass response and that is unlikely to be the best spot for midrange image. Avoid subs that go very deep.
Use room equalization like the Antimode 8033 to smoothen the response even further. Here, the use of multiple subs is particularly beneficial. The higher the frequency, the more localized the equalization will be. So if you start with a wider listening position by using multiple subs, you have a much better starting point for equalization. For the same reason, you do not want the main speakers to go very low.

There is one alternative to all this, and that is to use dipole speakers like the Quad electrostats (only the smaller 2815 in a room of this size). Dipole speakers excite far fewer room modes (which is why they sound so clean and neutral). However, they are pretty massive and need a bit of space behind them as well.

@willemj 

Appreciate your clarification.

ATC. Some of the other speakers mentioned here, regardless of price, add their own coloration or character to the sound.

Dave

ATCs don't sound bright at all to my ear.  It's just that many pop and rock records (a fair bit of what I listen to) are splashy (at best) and ragged/awful through the presence (not uncommon) to totally screwed up overall (sometimes).  I prefer something with a gently falling treble response, which isn't ATC

To be clear, I prefer a specific type of inaccurate speaker, which isn't to suggest that anyone else should.

Marty is correct. My experience with ATC is they are quite flat but have rolled off treble above 12K. So actually their soft dome tweeters are polite compared to other metal dome tweeters that extend higher.

The main thing with ATC is that the mid range has no dip or scoop. This means distortion and compression in modern pop rock can sound harsh on an ATC compared to the usual scooped midrange of the vast majority of speakers (B&W is prototypical). This translates to a more forward sound (close to the stage) than most smiley EQ speakers with a scoop.

Perhaps this is what Dave means by bright. I think Dave has the ATC 40 which is mid range in ATC domestic range. The larger ATCs actually have even more massive drivers - the 3 inch mid range “super” model is heavy (20 lbs).

Audiotroy:
I need not prove my hearing capabilities to you. Nor are you entitled to waste my time proving anything to you, a naked Persona shill here on Audiogon. Are you paid an extra commission to sell them? I'm not entitled to that answer so don't bother.
If @vermeer wants to pm me about any of my encounters with the Personas which are very good speakers overall, I'll be happy to oblige.

Easy - studio monitors like ATC SCM 50, PMC MB2, Grimm LS1
consider active versions - best bang for buck

Grgr4blu i am sure you are the expert on accuracy in all matters of life.

Oh by the way you are hijacking the thread.

how about something like a series one magico s3 - there were a few here that had a price in the 11-14k range. the series one s1 could be had at well below budget there is/was an s1mk2 listed a week or so back in the same price range.

if you want something less "straight to the source", raidhos might be up your alley. the ceo told me he likes pairing them with nagra (along with a few other brands)

dealer disclaimer: i carry raidho, but i do not carry magico

Excuse me, any speaker that has rolled off tremble above 12 khz is  far from accurate, possibly ridiculous, depending on how much. If it is true, I don't understand how they can be taken as something that is worth consideration. 

Easy no-nrainer - QUADS 
THE most accurate, natural, transparent I have ever experienced in my 60 years in audio.

For room your dimensions we have special model called Acoustic Preference GRACIOSO 1.0 LE (99 pairs only), if you prefer neutral-natural sound. Right now in special 10.anniversary action -40% off, look to eBay or our web site. Sorry, we dont have dealer in many countries, but we offer 45 days of money back warranty. The cost of purchasing with customs and VAT should not be higher than $ 10000; delivery is paid by our company.
Maybe interesting information for you and other audiophiles. Also our bigger model GRACIOSO 2.0 LE will be very good for your room but cost approx.2500$ more also in action now.
A little advertise for our oudspeakers which are not very well known in audiophiles world.

Marjan, CEO Acoustic Preference-EU

Quad ESL - fast, natural, accurate

and you can also use them to electrocute flying insects!

If you want accurate speakers - someone mentioned the Emminent Technologies - but without the subwoofer, the new Carver ALS would be around 15K.  Though tall, they are very thin and sound good in both small and larger rooms.  TAS menyioned how very similar in the midrange they sound (but better!) compared to the ETs.

The Carvers at $15k, the Eminent Technology at $2499---one sixth the price. The $12,501 difference will buy a swarm of nice subs! Or a whole lotta music.

- for a "classical" direct reflecting, beautiful speaker, no doubt about the XTZ Divine Alpha - as    good as BW800D3 - about the best speaker under 10k, and worth double - not efficient
- scale, transparence, dynamic, presence, in your face, room filling envelopping sound Tannoy Legacy Arden
- for an efficient, ultra transparent/accurate, ultra dynamic and ultra capable speaker, Tannoy GRF (new versions) - normal price is US23,000, but you can get them for less 15k -  If you get this, prepared to be shocked (coming from a guy using Westminster GR)

It is refreshing to read the Tannoy name appearing in these discussion pages. Worthwhile remembering is that Tannoy have been producing loudspeakers since 1926. They must know something about this stuff!

For those who care about such things, Tannoy is neither fashionable nor trendy, and most definitely unsexy! But have a listen anyway. Tannoy  have more or less global representation, and a dealer should be relatively easy to find. You may like what you hear.

If shopping vintage is your taste, one of the best values is the late '90s Tannoy Churchill. Produced in limited numbers, I have seen lightly used examples go for well under $10K.  A steal!

Lastly, (and this is really going back!) do some reading on IMF, a mid 70's company among the first to successfully bring the transmission line speaker to market. http://www.imf-electronics.com/Home
Pioneered by the late Irving 'Bud' Fried, IMF's boasted a flat frequency responce which was as linear as I have ever seen. 'Accuracy' was not only graphically represented but also accoustically.  And because of the TL design, the bass was clean and true down to the nether reaches (depending on the model size). Not as musical as Tannoy IMO, but a classic in its' own right. They are out there.

Good luck on your search.

@vermeer I went through a similar exercise earlier this year.  I spent a couple months listening to speakers at that price point.  My end choice came down to 3 speakers, the Persona 3F, Sopra 2 and Legacy Focus SE.  I took the Personas and Sopras home together for a side by side comparison.  They were the two most detailed/accurate/revealing speakers I had heard.  In the end I chose the Persona.  The Sopra by comparison was flat and laid back.  Both are very similar when compared to all others and it may have to do with the beryllium.

I chronicled my search here.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30844-reference-2-channel-speaker-recommendations/

@gpgr4blu the Persona has both a beryllium tweeter and mid.  I would say accurate, detailed, revealing and at times forward.  I wouldn't say hard and bright at all.  They are well balanced.  Perhaps you like a more laid back, "musical" sound?  Like the Vandersteens.  That's a great sound as well, but different.  The downside of that to my ears is the lack of depth and detail.  It could be that digital music was the source which has a tendency to be hard and bright.  Did you listen to them with vinyl or a tube amp or pre?

Kii THREE.
Recent Stereophile review.
You don't need the amp, because the're powered speakers.
Highly recommended.

Just a general comment.  I think that some people who comment about Vandersteens lacking detail or sounding overly warm (i.e., to the point of being colored) perhaps have not heard the current line.  I find it hard to believe anyone thinking the carbon tweeter in the Treo CT models+ and the "reflection free" mid (let alone the carbon cone one) lacks detail.  It seems like an old stereotype that's hanging on.  Heck, I think even listening to my ca. 2016 3A Sigs would change your mind about that stereotype.  Consider yourself invited.  :)

Hi Vermeer,

Just to second what Audiotroy and Initm said, the Persona is a great speaker, but only if you pair it with the right separates.

As a case in point, I had an experience with a Delaware dealer recently who warned me over the phone, prior to my auditions, to stay away from the Personas because they were "too bright". However I took with me, to the audition, my Anthem AVM60 pre-amp- Anthem being the same company that manufactures the Persona Speaker. Upon hooking the equipment up, the dealer loved what he heard and apologized for "misleading" me earlier on - it turned out the Personas were bright on his separates, but not on mine. 

I auditioned the Persona 5F in Delaware, and prior to that the 3F at Audiotroy's store in New Jersey. Both speakers impressed me. Best wishes with you search! 

One side note, since Vandersteen was mentioned. The 2 model has been one of the best selling speakers for over three decades. Not many speaker brands can boast about that. When listening to speakers, often it is the design/engineer who is responsible for a great sounding speaker. Richard Vandersteen, Kevin Voecks, Jim Salk, Andrew Jones etc....

Audiotroy:
You are a loon. How can I hijack a thread which concerns your hijacking of threads and my treatment of you in those threads?
Oh that's right I forgot---you still don't know what hijacking a thread means because you are too busy talking and not listening.
Sigh.

Grgr4blu you are hijacking a Paradigm thread where several people have reported the speakers to be amazing when set up correctly you are adding nothing as ususal. 

Many people find you to be inappropriate in your negativity and your continued attacks against our store and our products make you look like you have an axe to grind.

vermeer

If you can audition a pair of the Wilson Beseech Geometry Series speakers I think they would work well for you. Yes they are accurate but they also have soul, really enjoyable. Because the cabinets are carbon fiber there will be far less cabinet resonance to interact with your smaller room.

Audiotroy:
Your store has good products, indeed many excellent ones. I’m a fan of ATC, T&A, Legacy, KEF, Stiipoints and many others that it appears you may sell. I actually have no ax to grind. Don’t hijack with never ending "educational" and self promoting pablum and biased dealer opinions and we’ll be fine. Just look at posts by Jonathan Carr, Atmasphere, Audioengr, Kevin Deal (Upscale Audio), Albert Porter (Allnic) and countless others whose opinions many of us here value. They don’t come in to threads that have nothing to do with their products and suggest to OPs to try their products as an alternative to the product at hand. I’m sure they have the urge to talk about their very extensive knowledge and experience and cite chapter and verse of how they came to manufacture or sell what they believe to be the best products of their kind. But they don’t. That is why when they speak, we still listen attentively and often learn.
And you don’t have to claim that you have more integrity than other dealers to sell your stuff. It is simply not necessary. Let the products you sell speak for themselves.
Peace

15k is a generous budget. If your room is 10x14 or smaller suguest a used pair of Wilson Sopha 3's, (and invest difference in S&P spiders), if larger room size then again used Wilson, but larger Sasha's. Both are very accurate, World Class. Enjoy!

Nagra Classic amp and Wilson Benesch Discovery 2, in a 20 square-M room.
This will be my choice and an option for your consideration

As @willemj has pointed out, this is a smallish room. I’m surprised by the number of recommendations for speakers that, though terrific, are likely not the best fit for the room.

@vermeer Can you tell us more about your room? Is your room dedicated for audio or is it a mixed use room? Does it open to other rooms / spaces? Room construction material and height (since you are in Portugal, if it is older construction it is likely different than what is typical in the U.S. and Canada).

Vermeer,

have you considered Wilson Audio?  I know the secondhand market in Portugal is relatively small, But if you can get a pair of Sophia 3, Watt Puppy 8, or even Sasha 1 used, you will get some amazing resolution and detail.  Can your nagra amp go to 4 ohms?

what part of Portugal are you in? Are you dealing with Imacoustica?

At under 15k the pair why not go for the best (IMO) and pop for a pair of Magnepan 20.7 's.  Pretty hard to beat for the money if you have the room.

I think OP has a small room (around 200 square feet). I used to own Maggie’s and loved them.  The space required for Maggies to fully perform might be a deal breaker here. 

Thiel CS 2.4 or CS 2.7- natural, fast, accurate.
Happy Listening!

These days have been hectic and I was not able to come back to discussion before ...

@marktomaras : yes, I know Imacustica (who doesn´t in Portugal? ;)). I must confess that Wilson is not exactly my sound ... and currently they have no opportunities. They have, however a pair of Martin Logan Summit X which are going to be sold with a good discount since that line has been discontinued. I'm not sure however if they will be a good fit for a small room ... And I also don't know how my amplifier will handle them ...

@david_ten : it is a living room in a restored 100 years old building. It is a suspended wood floor, so I've playing with isolation solutions to decouple the speakers from the floor ...

From my perspective I don't feel the discussion has been hijacked by a dealer. Actually there was a very informative post from @audiotroy which I felt was quite honest (btw, it was removed not longer after it was posted). As long as properly identified (and this is the case), I have no problems at all in having dealers taking part of the discussion. We all have biases, not only the dealers ...

Vermeer, thanks for the kind words and support.

Your room is small but it is not that small. As long as you look at direct radiating loudspeakers with bass in the 40-30hz range you will be fine.

Also depending on electronics you can avail yourself with units from Micromega M100 or M150 hat sound fantastic on the Personas and also have room correction. 

Our smaller playback room is 18 feet long by 14 wide and the Persona 3F sound fantastic in that size room.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

As noted here, one has to "go out" and listen to as many speakers as possible. All speakers introduce coloration to the sound, so it is vital to listen and find out what YOU like in terms of sound and which brand YOU favor. Hype about a speaker or any electronics is flat out dangerous if you don’t have money to waste or blow through. Many audiophiles here have listened to dealer hype or went on the advice of a brand "fanboy" only to have bought something that does not sound good to THEM. Dealers have an agenda, sell their products. Owners of products they like, will get over-enthusiastic about the great stereo they have. The smart prospective audio buyer will listen to as many components as they can, and find (in your case) speakers that truly fit what YOU like.