I'm on a search for a very specific type of integrated. I am upgrading my system from the top of the stream down. I go all digital / Lossless quality or higher so the logical start was with the DAC. I just received my Yggdrasil which I absolutely LOVE and feel that I got a much better value than I was expecting (even with all the praise online it met and exceeded my expectations).
My quest continues with the integrated. I am looking for a company that spends very little on marketing and works to move as much of the value for the money to the product itself. Very high value is important to me, I want to get value above the price and I don't want to pay for anything I don't need (such as a built-in DAC as I already have one). The more musical and the higher the clarity the better. My short list is pretty short- the SimAudio Moon 600i and Ayre's integrated. Some other factors are below. I typically buy new but I'm open to a good value in a used product as well.
Budget (only for the integrated): $8K+/- Music preference: classical, light rock, pop End speakers: It is between Accoustic Zen Crescendo / Vandy Quatros / Wilson Sophias / Revel Salon Ultimas Power: 150 WPC+ into 8 ohm
I tried many including Vitus RI-100, Plinius 9200, plinius Hiato, Jeff Rowland continuum 500, Accuphase E-470 and E-600, Luxman 590ax, Bryston 135, Musical Fidelity Nuvistas, BAT-3000 and some others during last 15 years.
Currently have PASS INT-250 and INT-60 before. Both are outstanding and for the money (buying from Mark at Reno HiFI) and reputation and service, I doubt you can find any better than this.
Pass INT-60 would be my choice - it will get you closer to life sound than any others I heard. It has 2K VA toroidal transformer inside, even so it rated only 60db at 8ohm and 120 at 4ohm, it highly biased to class A and drove my speakers (Sonus Faber Guarneri Evo that are not that efficient) without braking a sweat.
How about a used Krell FBI. It's Class A. Designed by D'agostino. Check out the reviews. I know Streophile reviewed it, but not sure who else may have. I would think 8K would buy one in good condition. I know it's not by an "unknown" company but it is an excellent integrated.
I'm an Ayre devotee for a few years (all my electronics are Ayre seperates). They are very customer sensitive and always are there for help. (I've only done offered updates.....the units have been rock solid)
If looking at 2nd hand integrateds, you should also seek out the Vitus SIA-025 which offers musical, liquid/smooth Class A sound, and is fast, detailed & has wide bandwidth. Though they rarely appear on the 2nd hand market in the US however due to limited Dealers over here & folks tend to keep them. You will need to up your budget above $8k however as the SIA-025 retails around $23-24k in the US.
I'd make every effort to find a used Dartzeel CTH 8550. You'd be set for many years. I can say with certainty that it will compete with virtually any audio gear out there. Herve the designer is a genius and fine gentleman. Check with Blue Light Audio as demos or used are sometimes available. I don't own one BTW. IMO worth stretching for.
I am looking for a company that spends very little on marketing and works to move as much of the value for the money to the product itself. Very high value is important to me, I want to get value above the price and I don’t want to pay for anything I don’t need (such as a built-in DAC as I already have one). The more musical and the higher the clarity the better.
If VFM is your thing & you value musicality, I would take the Wells Audio Majestic integrated over an Accuphase integrated any day of the week, and for a fraction of the price ($3599USD). The only downside is the cheap remote, but you can pay an extra $100 & get an upgraded remote apparently. And with the savings, you could buy Stillpoints Ultra feet and/or upgrade your cables.
I would look speakers that are easy to drive. Large crossovers, to me suck the life out of the music. I would also avoid shine looking drivers. Are they just for show?
I have heard a number of " miracle integrated amplifiers " To name a few, the Sophia Electric 91-03, Japanese Triode TRX-88PP, Melody Hi Fi AN 845. Now find a speaker with synergy.
I'm one of those people that thinks that the amp and speaker choices should inform each other. So my only comment is that if you end up choosing the Vandy, then I would urge you to seriously consider the Ayre AX-5 Twenty. And vice versa.
Look at the Marantz Reference integrated line as well as the newest line of Yamaha integrated gear. These two fit your criteria, save for the power you'd like. As others have said, try more efficient speakers or see if you can get a try out/return program like Music Direct offers. It's where I got my Marantz gear from. They are great to deal with.
I revisited you post and looked at your power requirements which are pretty high for a not real expensive integrated. I would consider speakers that require less power, that usually means they have a crossover that doesn't suck the music right out of them. Some are so over dampened they sound lifeless. In your price range I would be thinking more efficient speakers and perhaps a sweet little tube integrated.
$700 only buy excellent cable, if you are very lucky, not monoblock, unless perhaps it is made by slaves from parts made by slaves. I do not buy $700 monoblocks regardless of how they sound, period.
Thanks to everyone for all your input. A very interesting turn of events has taken place at RMAF- Schiit is going to offer a 400w monoblock amp fully balance and A/B into 8ohm for $700 each.. That's Nuts!!! A new pre-amp also at $700 is joining the lineup. I'm going to add both of those to the list if reviews are good. The challenge is that they are not integrated but at that price it might be time to buy a new audio rack and have an all Schiit setup.
Not sure how the Simaudio dropped off your list, but this is a definite must hear. I upgraded from separates to the 600i and haven't looked back. This is a great integrated and took my system to a new level from Rogue audio power and Audio Research pre.
@mgmarcus Good point. Gilbert at Blue Circle is a design genius and a powerful engineer. His FtTH2 hybrid integrated and his BC 022i integrated are superb.
Not that you don't have enough suggestions to sort through, but Blue Circle Audio meets all your criteria. I doubt there is anything more musically complete than their integrated amps at any given price point.
Just utterly surprised no one has yet mentioned the LFD NCSE? It has been properly accolades as one of the purest and most liquid solid state integrated offerings regardless of price (I think it is around $6K now).
I have four different reference level systems and one of my systems has this exact integrated in it. Very pure tonality, surpasses the Pass in transparency (which I auditioned against it).
The minor issues I have with it is that it is only 70 wpc, which I think is due to the fact that it only uses one pair of output transistors per channel (which I understand, improve transparency and liquidity due using multiple pairs for more output results in smearing comparably). Also doesn't have the ultimate bass power"heft" of massive amps comparably either (what does? ).
I do think the great reviews all over the net are spot on and not hyped up fan boys. And, for $6K, it seems embarrass most stuff I've heard under $10K from any other solid state manufacturer I've experienced.
I know this may not reach the Pinnacle of high end. I was recently speaking to an Anthem Representative. I was in the market for a I225. Its a beast if an amp. He informed me that production had stopped on the model. I was able to find a great second hand unit with a warranty for $900.00 and I found this article on the 2016 CEDIA...
ANTHEM- Canada’s venerable high-end audio manufacturer has re-entered the two-channel space in a major way with the introduction of the new STR Integrated Amplifier. Anthem says that the STR Integrated Amplifier is features an entirely new platform and amplifier technology. The STR Integrated replaces the venerable Integrated 225 that has graced Anthem’s lineup for a decade. Anthem made the announcement today at CEDIA.
A major aspect of the STR Integrated amp is Anthem’s renowned Anthem Room Correction (ARC™) for the two-channel music. Integrated amplifiers have been traditionally abandoned by companies and left without the benefits of high end room correction. Now, with the inclusion of ARC, two-channel listeners are now able to optimize their listening experience and achieve the very best sound experience possible in their room with the ability to target specific frequencies based on ARC’s sophisticated room correction software.
We’ve had exceptional experience with ARC and consider it one of the best room correction solutions out there not only in terms of what it does but also what it doesn’t attempt to do. ARC focuses on the frequencies under 5kHz, which are non-directional and the most important to EQ. Users have the ability to tailor the frequencies that ARC targets through the ARC software.
Moreover, the STR Integrated Amplifier allows you to connect two subwoofers and bass manage both. The subs can be used in either mono or stereo configurations. An analog direct mode bypasses everything for a purist approach.
Anthem says that the STR Integrated Amplifier features inputs for moving magnet and moving coil phono cartridges. Also included is a high-resolution pre-amplifier section and high current, high output amplifier section. Anthem says there are eight bipolar output devices per channel, massive toroidal power supply, and Anthem’s Advanced Load Monitoring (ALM) for 225W at 8 ohms, 400W at 4 ohms, and 600W at 2 ohms, all with both channels continuously driven. It’s unclear at this point if the preamp section shares any similarity with the MRX/AVM 60 platform or if is entirely new and customized for specifically for the new integrated amplifier.
The DAC section features S/PDIF, AES/EBU inputs, as well as Asynchronous USB with support for USB, which supports 32-bit/384 kHz PCM, and DSD 2.8/5.6 MHz sources. The DAC section appears to offer a few advancements over the one found in the MRX and new AVM 60 models, which do not have an AES/EBU input. The amplifier featuring a stunningly beautiful front Thin Film Transistor (TFT™) display for an improved, high-resolution image compared to traditional LCD displays.
Anthem’s STR Integrated Amplifier is one of the few integrated amplifiers that can be fit into custom installation settings and controlled via high-end systems. The system comes with built-in ethernet and RS-232
Anthem says that the STR Integrated Amplifier is priced at $4,499 (US MSRP) and is the first of a new suite of premium two-channel / stereo products from Anthem. The STR Integrated will be available exclusively at Anthem dealers in early 2017..."
I have a Musical Fidelity M6si which for me has been truly phenomenal performance wise. Given its relatively low cost it makes for an overall good value. I’d certainly plus 1 the recommendations herein for the NuVista 800 having never even heard or seen it in person. I think that can be had for less than 13K (probably closer to 10K).
One issue I do have with Musical Fidelity is with the company itself, not their products. They are "dealer only" as far as customer support and that type of thing. Personally I think they would be better served if they had their own forum and communicated directly with end customers. They don't even provide an email address to contact them if needed, only an overseas (if in U.S.) number. Essentially they ignore the end-customer. Not sure if this is a cultural thing but regardless it leaves a lot to be desired.
In keeping with the thread title, "I need a miracle every day" :)
Thanks everyone for all the feedback it has been tremendously helpful! Here is my new short list (not in order):
Pass INT-150 Perreaux E'Loquence 150i Vinnie Rossie LIO CODA CSiB Modwright kwi 200 AR VSI75 might also be a consideration Possibly Schiit's integrated if they add a remote.
also I have officially removed Wilson and Revel from my speaker list. It is between Vandersteen (40%) and AZ (60%). RMAF is in less than a week so there might be some great new options on the horizon!
As you look at bang for buck propositions, you've got to calculate the differential between the companies referenced that do no advertising, put all the money in the piece etc......with: what sort of following do those brands command, so what is the potential resale if you decide to move on in say 2 or 3 years.......will your added value wash away because noone wants the piece when you decide to sell it......
In that regard, another candidate you should include is the Audio Research VSI75, which lists for 8500.00
You should be able to purchase it for 7K or less if you shop several reputable dealers.....
I owned the predecessor, VSI60 and wish I had it back.....
The CODA CSiB seems to meet all the criteria in your original post. Built by a company of seasoned veterans in amplifier design. They spend absolutely nothing on hype or advertising. Their products are built to last. The CSIB has more than enough power to drive any speaker you may decide on. And in my opinion Will sound as good or better than anything mentioned above in this post. I believe it is quite a bargain at $6000. An integrated amp to seriously consider!
Jeff Rowland Concentra 2 would be an excellent choice. True, service is limited to JRDG in Colorado, or a couple of repair shops in NY, but with the build quality of JR electronics, shouldn't be an issue. JR himself services the older units. Concentra 2s were built between 2001- 2004 (if you want more background info about JR products, go to HiFiadvice.com). Some of the esoteric names recommended in this thread probably face the same issues related to limited service. Many haven't been around as long as Jeff Rowland. You might also consider a Bryston integrated amp along with the many excellent suggestions above.
I really have liked my modwright kwi 200 with adagios...well under your budget...i was on the hunt as well for perfect integrated...pass 150,sim 600i were my other choices...those az will love the power
The Vinnie Rossi LIO is a no brainer for several reasons:
- It’s the best integrated I’ve ever heard and it doesn’t need expensive power cords as it’s "off the grid". - It’s 25wpc aren’t your typical power rating.....it seems to be much more robust. I have a pair of ProAc D30R’s at 90db into 4ohms and the LIO doesn’t even break a sweat. (It does produce 45wpc into 4ohms.) - You get 30 days of trying it in your home before you make a decision. If you don’t like it, you send it back. Who else will do that? - Customer service with Vinnie is second to none. - Modular unit. If you decide to add something or change something, you only add or change the module. - The AZ Crescendo is very easy to drive and the LIO will handle these with ease. Also, the Crescendo likes tubes and you have the tube preamp section with the LIO. - It doesn’t weigh a ton so you avoid getting a hernia when moving it. - You can configure the look the way you want it. - Made in the USA
400 Watts per channel into 8 Ohms 800 Watts per channel into 4 Ohms Class A operation to 5W State-of-the-art, remote-controlled "seperates" performance with the added benefit of balanced audio inputs for even greater audio quality. Preamplifier section derived from the Coda 05X design, utilizing the PGA2320 digitally-controlled precision analog attenuator. Component upgrades include PRP audio resistors, Black Gate and Multicap capacitors, and high speed rectifiers for the preamp power supply Coda CSX Precison Bias Class A/AB amplifier design, with discrete JFET differential input stage, VMOSFET voltage gain DC coupled to an ultra wideband bipolar output stage. Fully discrete amplifier FET differential input stage DC coupled to an ultra wideband bipolar output stage No overall feedback Separate tape monitor and processor loops Stereo subwoofer output Wideband, fully-regulated power supply with EMI and RFI line filtering 10 year warranty / 5 year transferable Designed, manufactured and assembled in the USA
People that are suggesting to start with the speakers are correct. Speakers have the most influence on the sound in a room. Besides, you'll want to decide on speakers so you know how much power (wattage & current) you'll need based on the sensitivity of the speakers. You've short listed some nice speakers with low sensitivity (86 DB) so an integrated without the muscle to drive them can leave you disappointed. 150 watts doesn't mean the same to every manufacturer.
Hi Guys! I just discovered this thread and wanted to mention tmh audio is the new US Distributor for YBA.
All YBA products continue to be designed Yves-Bernard Andre and manufactured under his direction/management.
Lots of information on all models and reviews on our website.
As an aside, at one time we distibuted Japanese SET amps that were priced into the 6-figures. YBA is THE best sounding designs with the highest level of construction quality that have ever passed thru tmh audio. Yves-Bernard is an extraordinary designer!
Gryphon comes to mind Automatically the Diablo one of the first very high quality integrated amplifiers $18k Mark Levenson just came out with s new integrated another great one at less money maybe find used Vitus another new comes from France Devialet very good sounding in the $5-6k range coda makes a very respectable integrated the Coda is not as fancy but very good sounding and Mcintosh the most bells and whistles probably last in this group just look inside loaded with $ 5.00 wins capacitores it is well balanced but without question not the last word in low level detail. I sold them I can say through my own personal experience.
It might sound ridiculous but for around $9k would the vinnie rossie amp/pre-amp combo drive most other $9k combinations out of the water? That be more than enough power to drive anything. It does move me away from integrated but would it be worth it I wonder?
The company seems to appeal to me as I love that they spend practically nothing on marketing and reviews seem very strong. No BS, just good sounding components. I took a chance with the $2.3k Yggy and was very happy but is a $9k gamble too much? Lol the sound would definitely have to be better than the 600i for me to consider that option.
I thought about the Rangarok but there is one problem- no remote... I'm controlling the amp from my desk which is about 10 feet away so I need a remote for volume etc.
As far as going the wrong way, I've always heard if you know the end speaker, go from the top of the stream down. Right now I do think the speaker is the weakest link but if I keep trucking with the direction of the source I'm expecting the final speaker purchase will have me hearing the greatest difference... So I save the best for last That way. I think I need to audition some 25W tube amps and see how they drive harder to handle speakers. How is the bass on the LIO?
I doubt that 25 watts will be enough. Depends on the music you listen to, volume and room size. Personally, regardless of speakers I never consider anything less than 50- 60 tube watts or 75-100 solid state watts. I can easily drive my speakers with 30 solid state watts and I used to do it with 60 solid state watts. Now I have 120 watts and it is much better, you can feel the power. My listening habits, taste of music and room remain the same. Speakers are 89db, 8 ohm, two way floorstanders with 8" woofer.
Great point simao a call to Robert Lee makes a ton of sense!
Glad to hear that about the LIO amp, if 25 watts is enough it is definitely a great option and to be honest it is under budget which gets me to the Crescendos even faster. Thanks so much for all the input!!!
LIO will have no trouble at all with 90 db speakers, 6 or 8 ohm load. I am running mine with KEF LS50s--much harder to drive--and it does a great job. Wonderful amp. Also 30 day home trial and the customer service is amazing.
Also, Wally at Underwoodhifi (here on Audiogon) is an LSA dealer. (LSA stands for Living Sounds Audio; it used to sound for Larry Staples Audio - the guy who designed the amp).
The musical fidelity seems to be a nice amp, very nice actually!
It is not a bad idea to do the speakers first. I wanted to see how good I can get my legacy classics to sound by improving the signal upstream. Even with my current NAD integrated (I think it is the BEE 356) I feel like I'm getting pretty close to maxing out the capability of those speakers. My listening room sounds sooo good right now and that is with a less than ideal amp. I'm really leaning to the AZ's so another reason for the amp first is the money. I don't want to drop $18k this year on Hifi it is just not in the budget so I'm thinking amp first then speakers soon after.
I tried to google the LSA but couldn't find anything. Is that short for something? As long as there is enough power I'm completely open to tube and hybrid systems.
i believe it is partly built in Taiwan. Build quality is outstanding. Very high level of fit and finish, and I am pretty picky about that. You could take a look at Fremer's review, as well as a long thread on Audioshark about it. It really is a great amp IMO. I have no desire to change at all (have had it over a year now).
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
