That’s exactly right! Skeptics always demand that True Believers do the blind test. As if that will prove skeptics were right, after all. The skeptics never do the blind tests themselves. What are they afraid of? Like I keep saying, the only real utility blind tests have for audio is as a weapon wielded by skeptics in the war on “irrational tweaks” and “preposterous ideas."
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Why would I deny or discount what I clearly hear, just because it doesn’t fit into someone else’s worldview? I don't need a blind test to prove to myself what I hear. If I hear that one cable sounds better than another in my system, and post about it here, it is directed towards those who accept the possibility that there is a difference. I am not trying to prove anything to, convert, or convince those who don’t hear any differences and/or deny they are possible. Why argue with someone who has a firmly established contrary opinion? I am sharing my experience and saying that, if you are interested and open, you might want to look into it further, and maybe try it for yourself. Why can’t those who disagree respect that? Why must you rudely and repeatedly chime in and express your unsolicited opinion, which is likely already well known? If I see a post or thread of yours that I disagree with, but I don’t have anything relevant or useful to say, I move on. |
Lets not ignore the elephant in the room. The purpose of the double blind test, which geoff cannot help himself to react to other than by saying they are rigged, is to determine whether there is really a discernable difference in sound or its a case of people wanting to believe they are paying the dues to buy into an elite club. I am not saying there is not a difference in sound. I totally applaud the test performed by Kevin at Upscale Audio and I think a lot of others did too. Wish I could have attended. |
It's already been pointed out (right here in this thread) that those with experienced ears score reliably above average in double blind tests. Somehow, comments like that get glossed over. It's also been shown that listening takes time with a system one is familiar with and quick takes amount to nothing more than a parlor trick. Being easy to fool someone doesn't equate to their being wrong. Not too hard a concept to wrap ones head around. There was someone who pointed out, on another thread, that the whole concept of expectation bias is inherent in those who refuse to believe there is a difference. It's very hard, if not outright impossible, to prove a negative. The naysayer will simply state he/she doesn't hear a difference no matter how obvious. Or eventually, that it's not of any significance. One individual went so far as to say so on another, related thread. People he had invited over heard the difference, he did not, and yet he still said it was all B.S. I think the answer lies somewhere in there. All the best, Nonoise |
jetter Lets not ignore the elephant in the room. The purpose of the double blind test, which geoff cannot help himself to react to other than by saying they are rigged, is to determine whether there is really a discernable difference in sound or its a case of people wanting to believe they are paying the dues to buy into an elite club. >>>>I never said they are rigged, well, perhaps in the case of The Amazing Randi, who made very unreasonable demands on those tested. For example, having the test performed at a location of Randi’s choosing. Having to use a system of his (Randi’s) choosing. Having to use unfamiliar discs in the test. And having to pass ten consecutive tests. I mean, come on, people! As far as other blind tests go, at least in the general sense, what I actually said is that they don’t prove anything if results are inconclusive or negative due to the myriad reasons tests can be corrupted. Just like any type of test. Reasons include but are not limited to failure to follow instructions, lack of experience in listening tests or plain old hearing impairment, and mistakes in the system. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry. 🐁 I have more experience than the average bear when it comes to testing, not only testing for sound but in testing of very large expensive communications systems. Know what I mean, jelly bean? |
There's an experiment where different stacks of playing cards have different pay/lose profiles. That is,some decks may reward/ punish in $5-$25 range, whereas other deck contains more big payout and punishment cards. The test subjects hands are measured for voltaic conductance (sweaty palms) and it turns out the hands react differently when choosing which deck to play. That is, if the big emotional punches come from deck 3, the hands "knows" the difference in decks long before the conscious mind is aware of any difference or can articulate it. So in some experiences, the "body" can discern before the mind. |
It seems to me that those who are clamoring for blind tests should be the ones conducting the blind tests. @cleeds You are correct. However, that is a generalization. Within the context of this thread specifically the blind test I'm advocating for should be conducted by the party who has the most to gain or loose by the result of the test. Clearly that would be Geoff, as he is the one who professes that wire has directionality. I'd have to think *he* would be interested to learn if he could actually hear a difference. That’s exactly right! Skeptics always demand that True Believers do the blind test. As if that will prove skeptics were right, after all. The skeptics never do the blind tests themselves. What are they afraid of? @geoffkait But it is posts from people like you that create skepticism in the first place! The burden of proof to your outlandish claims lies with you, not those that are skeptical of them. Why would I deny or discount what I clearly hear, just because it doesn’t fit into someone else’s worldview? I don't need a blind test to prove to myself what I hear. @tommylion You wouldn't deny or discount what you hear just because someone else disagrees, doesn't hear what you do, etc. And you're absolutely correct that you do not need a blind test to prove anything to yourself. So please allow me to ask your opinion - within the context of audio - how would one prove a wire is directional (i.e. can hear a difference oriented one way or the other) *without* a blind test? So in some experiences, the "body" can discern before the mind. @electroslacker I agree. |
Funny you should ask! Kidding, my buddy recently compared a few digital cables. We heard differences for sure. Hugh difference, well nope. Slight differences in overall dimension, clarity, smoothness, etc. The higher priced digital cable won out but not at two and a half the price difference. It also did not have the clarity of the cheaper cable. My other friend couId hear the differences in our other friends system but not that much in his system so system dependent? have stated many times in the past, swap out a few resistors and you will probably hear bigger differences. I have a selector switch in my preamp so I can change resistors to go with the recording on the fly! Happy Listening. |
Well, I certainly hope you’re not trying to convince us that everybody will get the same subtle results that you and your buds got. It all comes down to the sticky question, what exactly do tests prove, if anything - even when they’re positive? We already know what they prove when they’re negative, right? |
@geoffkait I do wish you would read and comprehend before blasting I doubt anyone could hear a significant difference between those two particular cables.Approximately HALF the participants COULD tell the difference better than guessing. How else would we have come up with an even split? I assume you were trying to portray Monster as a sort of high end cable.We were not trying to portray anything. We were conducting an open test where anyone could participate and indicate whether they could repeatedly identify the cable as A or B. Any detected difference between the two cables was not captured as it was not relevant. I had some Monster Cable circa 1983 and frankly, it sucked.As I’ve mentioned several times, cable interacts with the amplifier and speakers. There are 3 possibilities relative to the existing cable: Better - No Change - Worse. While the cable maybe demonstrably worse electrically, it may be preferred by listeners in that system at that time. In any case, as I’ve opined on more than a few occasions, a single testAs I said, "Some who took repeated tests could tell better than 80%." We structured the test so some would take it many times and each test series was different. Statistically, getting it right better than 80% that is way beyond what could be achieved by guessing. means nothing when the results are inconclusive or negative.There are multiple possible conclusions: Cables make no audible difference - Cables make an audible difference - The test was so poorly run with such bad equipment that it is impossible to tell. There are many factors that biased against detecting differences: poor seating, distractions, poor room. In other words you cannot draw any generalizations or conclusions.Given that half the participants could reliably tell in adverse conditions, my takeaway was that people could distinguish differences... which I’ve maintained and reliably detected for more than 40 years. And things have changed a little bit since the 80s, you betcha.Yeah... lots of internet experts without one iota of technical expertise |
Wire directionality can easily explain the results of your test. Wire directionality was not even a gleam in an audiophile’s eye in the ‘80s. For all you guys knew, you were comparing directions, not cables. Would it be fair to say one person in the group had reasonably good hearing but the rest were of, uh, unknown or questionable ability? 🙄 |
gdhal, I don’t know that one can “prove” that wire sounds different (better) in one direction over the other to anyone but themselves. Especially if the person(s) you are trying to prove it to is not open to the idea, or even hostile towards it. Either they hear it for themselves, or they don’t. The great thing is that if you hear a positive difference, you don’t have to prove it to anyone in order to enjoy the benefits of it. For me, this hobby is not about proving anything. It is about enjoying, engaging with, and being moved by, music in my home. |
Well, I did once do a single-blind test with Wireworld vs. Nogami. The results were interesting. My test subjects heard what I did, but completely disagreed on the value. The Wireworld had better imaging, but was darker. Nogami lost out in imaging, but brighter, more enthusiastic presentation. Of course, double blind is better, but it was convincing enough for me. Will I spend $300 on speaker cables again? No, but there's something interesting going on. Best, E |
I don’t know that one can “prove” that wire sounds different (better) in one direction over the other to anyone but themselves. Especially if the person(s) you are trying to prove it to is not open to the idea, or even hostile towards it. Either they hear it for themselves, or they don’t. The great thing is that if you hear a positive difference, you don’t have to prove it to anyone in order to enjoy the benefits of it. I agree with you @tommylion. At the same though, and in the absence of any proof whatsoever, those such as Geoff who profess to hear positive differences in wire direction ought to keep that observation to himself (i.e. without posting on a public forum). It's akin to someone writing "I can walk on water", and then expecting that no one will chime back in asking for proof. And while the hobby is not about proving anything, it shouldn't/wouldn't hurt where possible and applicable. |
gdhal “At the same though, and in the absence of any proof whatsoever, those such as Geoff who profess to hear positive differences in wire direction ought to keep that observation to himself (i.e. without posting on a public forum). It’s akin to someone writing "I can walk on water", and then expecting that no one will chime back in asking for proof. And while the hobby is not about proving anything, it shouldn’t/wouldn’t hurt where possible and applicable.” >>>>>You act as though you’re a complete newcomer to a debate that has been going on for twenty years, at least. Are you Rip Van Winkle? 😬 We already have evidence that wire measures (resistance) better in one direction than the other from the data sheets on the HiFi Tuning web site that involves measuring directionality of fuses. And it’s always that direction that sounds better. It’s not random. And all fuses are directional, not just the latest spate of high end fuses. And they’re direction because the wire itself in the fuse is directional. We also have evidence of all the high end cable manufacturers who control directionality and mark their cables with arrow to guide the user how to connect them. Have been for years. Especially very well established high end companies like Audioquest (very outspoken on the subject of directionality) that controls directionality for ALL of their cables including power cords and HDMI cables. Hel-loo! Wakey, wakey! Geez, you’d have to believe there is some sort of enormous global conspiracy by manufacturers attempting to fool gullible and naive audiophiles. We also have the evidence of all those who have reported on these forums over the years, the great many years, hearing differences in fuse direction and cable direction. Wake up and smell the roses! 🌷🌷🌷 This whole directionality debate serves as an excellent example of the Backfire Effect, which is what oft occurs to someone has strong beliefs or is extremely skeptical when confronted with contradictory evidence. He becomes more strongly convinced he must actually be right and that the contrary evidence is intended to somehow deceive him. The more contrary evidence the stronger the Backfire. Ka-pow! As Juror 3, the last holdout in 12 Angry Men, kept saying, “You can’t prove it!” In many cases there is no proof, only evidence. We must weigh the evidence. As I said anyone can try it for himself by reversing interconnects or speaker cables or a fuse. It’s not rocket science. 🚀 |
jetter ...The purpose of the double blind test ... is to determine whether there is really a discernable difference in sound or its a case of people wanting to believe they are paying the dues to buy into an elite club. Please tell us how you can design a double blind test that could determine why a listener might be unable to detect a difference between two items subject to the test. |
@geoffkait with regard to your 03-12-2018 7:31am post herein, I'm not disputing the resistance measurement being different in one direction or another. I'll save that dispute for another time and thread, if you don't mind. But with specific regard to the listener evidence of all those on the forum who have reported hearing a difference in wire direction over the years, did any of that evidence involve any kind of blind testing? From what I've read from you thus far within this thread, it has not. Hence my point that perhaps if those same listeners were to subject themselves to a blind test, they might (or might not) arrive at a difference conclusion. So without the blind test, the listener "evidence" is meaningless as far as I'm concerned. To your point "...anyone can try it for himself by reversing interconnects or speaker cables or a fuse. It’s not rocket science" of course. But to reiterate, performing that activity knowing what you have or have not reversed is completely, utterly and entirely different than not knowing (i.e. blind). |
gdhal ... of all those on the forum who have reported hearing a difference in wire direction over the years, did any of that evidence involve any kind of blind testing? ... So without the blind test, the listener "evidence" is meaningless as far as I'm concerned.That's fine, you needn't accept the observations of others. Please feel free to conduct your own blind testing, and to share the results with the forum. |
That's fine, you needn't accept the observations of others. Please feel free to conduct your own blind testing, and to share the results with the forum.Just to reiterate what I've already stated, I certainly do perform my own (with the help of an assistant) blind testing in cases where I hear (or believe I do) a difference, in order to confirm/deny my observation. But in cases where I'm *not* the one making a claim to hear a difference - and wire directionality is one such case - then in my view the onus ought to placed on the person (Geoff) making such claim, not the one (me) disputing it. |
Sorry, but no one here is obligated to test anything for your benefit. @cleeds No apology necessary. You should know, I happen to agree with you (quoted above) completely. Thing is, it’s my assertion that the "benefit" actually lies with the person making the claim, not with the person disputing it. And please know, in no way am I intentionally wanting to be obstinate in my thinking here. But being able to hear a difference when speaker wire is reversed? Seriously? And to write that in a thread devoted to "scientific double blinded cable test". How *un-scientific" can that statement be? LOL. |
At NASA there is a strict regulation to observe directionality of cables. Otherwise false discoveries could result like that at CERN where some neutrinos were faster than light. Hi @nugat And are the cables NASA uses where they must conform to strict regulation to observe directionality used as audio speaker wire? |
Just for the record the assumption that the onus is on the person making the claim is an old wives tale. It’s a myth perpetrated by clever little Skeptic Scamps. And that’s precisely why you won’t see any court cases - ever - where someone somewhere decides to take some cable or tweak manufacturer to task legally over some preposterous-sounding claim or another. Want some prime examples? OK, Silver Rainbow Foil, Morphic Message Foils, Clever Little Clock, the Intelligent Chip, the Teleportation Tweak, Mpingo disc, the Blue Fuse, tiny little bowl resonators. Besides it’s not as if I’m the only one making the claim. I’m afraid you’re going to have to demand that every single person who has reported positive results over the last twenty five years perform blind tests, including all the cable companies who are advanced enough in their thinking to control directionality of their cables and cords. |
I can understand wanting objective, unbiased information about the sound of cables, or other equipment, before trying them for yourself. Unfortunately, it is scarce. This hobby is fundamentally a subjective one. It is ultimately about what YOU hear, in YOUR system. There are areas of general agreement, but no one can tell you for sure what a particular product will sound like to your ears, in your system, or even if you will hear a difference at all. This means that there is an inherent element of risk. You do your research, read reviews and forum posts, talk to any friends or acquaintances who have experience with it, arrange to audition it somewhere, if possible/practical. Then, once you are reasonably assured that it is likely to make a positive difference in your system, you take the plunge. |
Hi @nugat And are the cables NASA uses where they must conform to strict regulation to observe directionality used as audio speaker wire? Ehmm....I would hope people get the NASA joke. I asked a simple question in the beginning and people gave answers to questions I did not ask. Perhaps there was never a scientific double blind test of audio cables conducted. I learned here how flawed science is, even trying to find objective truth. Well, instead we have post-truth tweeted to the whole world. People have not only own opinions but also own facts. NASA never flew men to the Moon, BTW. |
nugat OP At NASA there is a strict regulation to observe directionality of cables. Otherwise false discoveries could result like that at CERN where some neutrinos were faster than light. The problem with the neutrinos was they went back in time and disappeared off the screen. Just like the De Lorean in Back to the Future. That’s how Superman saved Lois Lane, by racing around the Earth a bunch of times faster than the speed of light. Duh! |
IMO, learning to navigate the often murky waters of reviews, subjective experiences & impressions, anecdotes etc., and find the bits & patterns relevant to your particular preferences, goals and situation, is an essential part of this hobby. Sometimes, whether you like it or not, they are all you have to work with. |
The problem with the neutrinos was they went back in time and disappeared off the screen. Just like the De Lorean in Back to the Future. That’s how Superman saved Lois Lane, by racing around the Earth a bunch of times faster than the speed of light. Duh! @geoffkait Are you sure you're not a Grateful Dead "Head"? You've obviously had way to much electric koolaid. :) |
Cables are not about soundwaves and hearing. Loudspeakers, rooms and brain+ears are. Cables are about carrying voltage that tells loudspeakers how to move air. Amplifiers generate the voltage and cables are supposed to carry it as faithfully as possible to transducers. That process can be a subject of scientific research. What goes into the cable and what comes out. People and their ears are redundant here. Really nobody has done it in the whole world? |
“People and their ears are redundant here” That’s a peculiar statement, considering “people and their ears” are the whole point of the exercise. Say you run tests & measurements on a pair of speaker cables, and tell me they are passing the signal perfectly. I then put them in my system and live with them for a while. If my ears tell me something is not right, or they are not as good as what I was using, I’m going with my ears. |
nugat ... That process can be a subject of scientific research. What goes into the cable and what comes out. People and their ears are redundant here. Really nobody has done it in the whole world?You may very well be the first to suggest that when it comes to audio cable research, people and their ears are redundant. Perhaps you'll undertake the research that you're so surprised remains unexplored. If so, please report back with the results. |
Um, the problem with faster than light neutrinos was a loose fiber optic cable. No current involved, not directional. Total bs. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/06/once-again-physicists-debunk-faster-light-neutrinos Best, E |
„People and their ears are redundant”. Half-joke in response to claims here that double blind method cannot study human behavior. So eliminate humans. But in fact, if you check for error rates of digital transmission in cables the observer’s opinions are irrelevant. The same you can do with „voltage transmission”. Of course pundits here will claim that there is no method to reliably study human hearing which is quantum phenomenally more sensitive than any measurements. |
I’m not against scientific studies, and gaining broader knowledge. For me, they just don't have much relevance or usefulness when pursuing greater musical enjoyment from my personal system. I'd rather have recommendations from one or more people with similar tastes and goals to mine, whose ears I trust. |
nugat Of course pundits here will claim that there is no method to reliably study human hearing which is quantum phenomenally more sensitive than any measurements. >>>>That can’t be right since human hearing ability varies all over the place. Also it’s patently false that sound is completely determined by how the ears transmit acoustic vibration to the brain. That’s one of those beliefs we assume we learned somewhere along the line that everyone agrees must be true. What else could it be, right? But that’s a subject for another thread, another time, partner. 🤠 |
The problem is statements like that, that everyone is welcome to their opinion, or that if someone feels like he doesn’t have to go high end, are OK, and can be quite soothing and conciliatory but do not (rpt not) address the actual heart ❤️ of the debate, you know, the one that’s been raging like a California wildfire 🔥for 40 years. Which is is there an audible difference among cables (or fuses)? (I know two is’s in a row again). All we have so far (if I can be so bold to summarize) is a lot of who shot John. “If someone did a blind test...” “If someone measured them...” “Let your ears decide...” |
I don’t think anybody would seriously bother. Cables make little to no difference as anyone can verify themselves easily - provided they have good equipment. If you have big differences then get better matching equipment, repair it or get rid of it. Nobody who sells high end cables does double blind because it would show that special high $ cables dont work (unless they have a filter) and ordinary cables are just perfect as good audio systems are designed that way - so there is no interest to prove that cable products are just snake oil and hence none of the sellers or manufactures offer any form of proof. Obviously if a manufacturer could prove their high end cable to be audibly superior to others then you can bet one or more of the hundreds of manufacturers would be offering demonstrations - quickest way to make millions of $ so it is not like there is no incentive to prove the superiority of a product. |
shadorne"Obviously if a manufacturer could prove their high end cable to be audibly superior to others then you can bet one or more of the hundreds of manufacturers would be offering demonstrations" Actually the simple and easily shown proof of this matter is that both manufacturers and audio dealers perform these kinds of demonstrations all of the time so what you might consider is actually attending one of these demonstrations using an actual Music Reproduction System and see and hear for yourself that you're information here is profoundly misinformed but of course it is easier to simply proselytize from the comfort of your easy chair than actually undertake any listening tests. |
Obviously if a manufacturer could prove their high end cable to be audibly superior to others then you can bet one or more of the hundreds of manufacturers would be offering demonstrations - quickest way to make millions of $ so it is not like there is no incentive to prove the superiority of a product. +1 And, obviously if a forum member could demonstrate they could hear a difference with said cable oriented one way or the other, they would have taken me up on the offer I made herein this thread on 03-10-2018 6:55pm. |
gdhal"obviously if a forum member could demonstrate they could hear a difference with said cable oriented one way or the other, they would have taken me up on the offer I made herein this thread on 03-10-2018 6:55pm" I am sorry I don't see that offer in my feed here could you please repeat it for the beenfit of the rest of us? If you are offering actual financial renumeration I would like to participate NOT because I need the money but to simply put this matter to rest for once and for all. I can assure you confidentally well in advance of any such test that you must be prepared to part with your money because I have already past these double blinded tests on multilpe occassions as has been documented elsewhere. |
@clearthink Here is a copy/duplication of my 03-10-2018 6:55pm post herein. Not "clear" to me (pun intended) why you couldn't find it. ------------------- @geoffkait Your point about not linking to old posts because you may have more current data to offer is a fair reply. Thanks. To your point about knowing that wire is directional, I'm using Belden 5T00UP speaker wire. Would you say that wire is directional? And, if you answer yes, would you say you could *hear* a difference if connected one direction or another? If you answer yes to both, I have a business proposition - directly related to this thread - for you (or anyone who answers yes to both questions for that matter). Broadly, the proposition involves either a blind or double blind test where it is my position that you *cannot* reliably hear a difference, and it would be your position that you could reliably hear a difference. If interested, and if the amount is worthwhile (low five figures?) we can have our attorney's draw up the contracts, establish an escrow account and so on. |
