I use mu-metal foil to shield my low level phono step up transformer from noise from nearby HVAC equipment. Nothing special there, transformers emit em radiation that can induct undesirable noise into electric circuits. That's basic electronics.
Thing is I read that the theory behind benefits of Schumann is pretty much entirely based on its effects on humans as part of the earth's environment. Nothing about its effects on electric circuits or that being a good thing.
Just saying. IT's an interesting theory, but again not a hard one to test and support or not. Like a transformer, close unshielded proximity to an electric circuit should have a greater effect than farther away , and there is always some range limit involved.
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Interesting thread, even if just for the entertainment value. I have no doubt, as with many things audio, many people get a different response from their system/ear/brain interface.
Real question: It would seem to me as with all waves that there is the distinct possibility if using more than one SG that waves will peak and trough at different points in a listening room. There must be phase distortion?
So, I'm thinking one does whatever it does, but two or more would tend to disable the whole. Maybe because the wavelength is so long at that freq its simply inconsequential?
Regards,
barts. |
So with that thought..being a pair of mono amps I could remove the shield from only 1 amp place Mr. Schumann near one listen and move to the shielded side and play.
The amps are about 6 ft apart each sitting on Sistrum Sp 101 platforms. Tom |
We all know that throughout the history of HE audio there have been examples of things or ideas that many considered to be implausible or even quackery at first and which later turned out to have validity. If only there were some type of filter that would prevent someone from opining on the validity of something that he/she has not tried 🤔. There doesn’t have to be agreement; simply first hand experience. Perhaps a suspension of ability to post for a certain period of time? Say, no posting for a week for each “infraction”? 😊 |
Yes good idea frogman. Let’s censure everything we disagree with or do not like. That will get us far. |
Of course a magnetic field creates electric current, Physics 101. Just like current creates a magnetic field, especially in wires in loops.
I would love to see someone actually measure sound (which is what we can agree on here is what matters) with and without the SGs in a room at different listening positions with and without the devices just like when you prep a room for acoustic treatments.
I would bet it is not measurable, especially since the main proponents are saying it doesn't matter where they are placed.
Some things are measurable and not audible, but not the other way around.
It probably has some effect on some people who can then become better focused on the tremendous detail in the sound. Those people may be more relaxed. It shows up in health articles that ARE scientific as being potentially beneficial.
Please someone who has the SGs and sound measurement equipment put this argument to bed (if that is possible). I doubt it will change anyone's opinion on whether to use them or not, but it would be nice to at least prove what you are hearing is actually out there.
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Lighten up, mapman, it’s called humor. You know...funny? Smiley face? I shoulda known. Still, not sure how there can be honest “disagreement” without first hand experience.
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@bemused, There is a sucker born every moment. All of you tweaky guys would do better spending your money on lottery tickets. You might actually get something out of it.
@ mahgister, I think you need a job. First bemused gives a very interesting post....A beginnning of clarity in the subject.... I am not a scientist but i can appreciate the fact that resonance is key concept if we think about the why... Thanks.... I dont need a job, i need true friends.... I will say to Mijostyn that NO devices i bought cost me anything except a few peanuts... And all the others i created myself at no costs...I only recommend creativity at no cost for all.... Who is the sucker? Those who dont know anything save the word placebo? Those who recommend to buy pricey equalizer or costly upgrade instead of those like myself who advise about controlling at no cost the working embeddings dimensions of any system, mechanical, electrical and acoustical? Who is the sucker in the audio thread? me? |
I will do the same with my Music Fan all about reducing interfering energy and increasing laminar flow.
I wonder if a similar type of path crosses with Mr. Schumann and his wave machine. I can take measurements and observations on my grounded 6 shelf Sistrum rack front and center of the stage wall. Will laminar flow affect the concentration or dispersion of the
Mr. Schumann device? Never know till ya try.
Tom
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I explained many times now, to no avail, that the S.G. cannot be reduced to be only a subjective effect based only on an action on the human body...
It seems many dont read posts here before posting...
It is EASY to improve the sound of the S.G. by adding a golden plate ( shungite +copper tape) and an herkimer diamond to the device... The 2 minerals will produce, each one separately, coupled with the device, 2 completely different effect on the sound, and a more balanced effect together?
This is a triple EXPERIMENT, not a stupid mantra about placebo or deluded customers.... I sell NOTHING....and the chinese S.G. cost peanuts...
Bemused was one of the rare here with a beginning of explanation...Myself i am not a scientist but ALL of what i speak about i experimented it MYSELF at NO COST.... Is it clear?
I cannot be accused to be deluded....My experiment are repeatable...
I cannot be accused to sell "snake oil"...I sell my creativity at no cost...
But it seems some will never understand anything...
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I also have triangulated music directors on the floor that reduce floor bounce directly in front of my stand mounted mains. The music directors are slot loaded down there length and vented towards the ceiling to lift the air. Would placing a resonator in each one of my devices benefit or augment dispersion in any way? Wont know till I try. Tom |
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Frog, I’m neither agreeing or disagreeing. Just discussing and trying to understand how things work and this one is not adding up so far from what I read.
It happens but that is what Engineers do.
I’m getting closer to punting on this one (again) based on what I read but the jury is still out. If I didn’t already have to pry myself away from listening to my hifi for hours on end perhaps I might be more motivated to take a leap of faith. I’ve read and learned more about Schumann Resonance, which seems to be a scientifically established real phenomenon, what it is, and what people claim it can do. So that’s all a good thing. Thank you OP for bringing up the topic.
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@mapman The Fourier series theory stands behind all of electromagnetism.
The em wave emitted eventually by way of speaker transducer, becomes a sound wave. The cart before the horse scenario. The reason the Schumann frequency affects you, and all human physiology is because the frequency induces a calming, relaxed, yet alert and focused influence.
It is a theta frequency (7-12 Hz).
The idea has nothing to do with sound.
IT has everything to do with the manipulation of e signals that become sound waves.
That's what amps and speakers do.
There is no rational explanation out there that connects the dots.
Again: square wave, Fourier harmonic series, and resonance. All supported by laws of physics, which includes the science of sound. Get it? |
I do.
There is no scientific explanation that connects the dots. So its a leap of faith.
Rationalizations produce theories that may or may not be true. |
@mapman The Fourier series theory stands behind all of electromagnetism.
The em wave emitted eventually by way of speaker transducer, becomes a sound wave. The cart before the horse scenario. The reason the Schumann frequency affects you, and all human physiology is because the frequency induces a calming, relaxed, yet alert and focused influence.
It is a theta frequency (7-12 Hz).
The idea has nothing to do with sound.
IT has everything to do with the manipulation of e signals that become sound waves.
That’s what amps and speakers do.
There is no rational explanation out there that connects the dots.
Again: square wave, Fourier harmonic series, and resonance. All supported by laws of physics, which includes the science of sound. Get it? It is right on the spot and clear like water... I forget about that but ,yes, the frequency of the theta brain wave resonate with the S.G. It makes absolute sense.... I proposed a simple experiment: Put a piece of shungite on the S.G. and an herkimer diamond and the sound will be improved and more balanced.... then the S.G. act also with the audio signals ..... Thanks... It is my experience.... I think the resonance concept make sense and more on the spot than the "dither" one i was thinking about.... Thanks and my deepest regards .... |
This is not about faith. It is simple and logical. |
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theaudiotweak:
Just found a 2009 study done in Japan, but no follow up.
Looks like there is a >30% chance that it will lower my BP approx. 10%, and only a 3% chance that it will increase (my) BP (60% chance that it will have Zero effect).
I need one that is rechargeable (only USB charger source here is the iMac), so worth a try for $25, or so.
Not keen on exposing my wife to it so probably won't try it in the living/listening room unless she's in one of the bedrooms for an extended period of time.
DeKay |
I speculate that DACs can be improved because the resonances may influence the dither in a way to make "uncertainty" more certain.
That is to say the converter's resolution improves. Bits that were in the "gray" area are now defined to be a "0" or a "1". What was unclear in the data now becomes clear and strengthened after applying resonance. |
« Faith is only a blind logic and logic itself is anyway constructed on blind faith...Music is the best stick for the blinds» -Anonymus Smith
«What is music? it is a logic able to see... It is a faith able to rethink itself»-Anonymus Smith
«Numbers are music, music is numbers » -Pythagoras |
I speculate that DACs can be improved because the resonances may influence the dither in a way to make "uncertainty" more certain.
That is to say the converter’s resolution improves. Bits that were in the "gray" area are now defined to be a "0" or a "1". What was unclear in the data now becomes clear and strengthened after applying resonance. Very clear .... Thanks what a breeze to read coherent posts.... |
@sokogear Get a dB meter.
Play pink noise through your system at a level to read at about -50 or -60 dB. Use a fixed position for your meter. Turn on the Schumann device.
Read the meter, It should increase by a 1/4 to a 1/2 dB. .
A small change but still significant. Any fractional dB increase is still a lot of energy. |
Where can I find some scientific papers that back up this claim? The reason the Schumann frequency affects you, and all human physiology is because the frequency induces a calming, relaxed, yet alert and focused influence. |
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@sokogear Get a dB meter.
Play pink noise through your system at a level to read at about -50 or -60 dB. Use a fixed position for your meter. Turn on the Schumann device.
Read the meter, It should increase by a 1/4 to a 1/2 dB. .
A small change but still significant. Any fractional dB increase is still a lot of energy.
I was done with this topic for now but can’t let incorrect information go: No, this can’t be assuming the device is emitting em radiation at that frequency ( not sound) it will NOT show on a sound meter. You would need a sensing device sensitive to that wavelength/frequency in the EMR spectrum (se link I provided above) to detect that. Not a sound/db meter. This argument is all over the place. One minute its effect of EM radiation from devices like this and transformers on electronic circuits, next its the same device producing sound not EMR that you will detect on a sound meter. |
It's like homeopath medicine it cures everything. |
Where can I find some scientific papers that back up this claim?
The reason the Schumann frequency affects you, and all human physiology is because the frequency induces a calming, relaxed, yet alert and focused influence. Think a bit.....Like few seconds.... The theta waves in the brain work on the same frequencies.... Do you need a doctorate to understand that MAYBE the device could help.... The fact that we could ask for scientific experiments about that is one thing but doubting the fact CANNOT be a reason to stay still and not buying a cheap device reviewed for decade in audio thread for his sonic improvement... It does not need a very plastic brain to understand that... The ratio: FUN experiment and possibleS.Q.increase/ money invested, is incredibly positive.... Is it so difficult to understand? Associating S.G. with homeopathy is so stupid for 2 reasons i will not comment.... I am tired of the deluded zealots crowds but not less tired of the sunday sceptic crowds.... Experimenting is not believing or doubting, it is the 2 simultaneously in a process called thinking...Buying a peanut cost device is EXPERIMENTING.... |
This argument is all over the place. One minute its effect of EM radiation from devices like this and transformers on electronic circuits, next its the same device producing sound not EMR that you will detect on a sound meter.
Bemused is very clear.... The market publicity is very clear, Everybody knows that this device dont affect the sound DIRECTLY...And do not produce sound.... Your sentence prove you have not understood bemused posts.... Or if you have understood them you stir the pot with a confusion NOBODY make...The S.G. dont affect the sound DIRECTLY but through a resonance with the E.M. field...then some frequencies may be affected more than other and this energy level even low can be neasured... For me it is very clear this is the case with my experience with minerals on a modified S.G. How can shungite or herkimer diamond, put separately or together on top of an S.G. , can affect the sound if not by a specific resonance with the audio system E.M. field.... ALL E.M. of ALL the appliances in your house are in resonance with one another ....This is the general specific noise floor of your house....One of my embeddings controls precisely work by decreasing it : the "golden plates".... It is not "snake oil", my idea is free and it cost peanuts to try it....IT IS AN EXPERIMENT.... I have given ideas about experiments here, i did for 2 years, about embeddings controls and people replicate with stupid sceptic mantras like alzheimer brain repeating the same formula: placebo, snake oil, etc The fact a more sensitive device than a regular DB meter would be needed to measure the db or energy involved dont invalidate the general idea of Bemused.... |
@bemused,@mapman
I am just trying to get some agreement on whether these things change the actual measurable sound in the room. Not how we process it.
I am not an acoustical or sound engineer (but admittedly am an engineer who believes in science and showing how experiments support theories on a repeatable basis). You say it should increase the sound by a fraction of a dB. Have you done this? Is that tiny increase noticeable?
I don't have a DB meter or pink noise generator and am not sure that is what a microphone is measuring in preparation for acoustic treatment. I thought it looks at different frequencies. I don't have one of those either.
Please can a unbiased person do this?
I hear @mahgister talk about metal plates and diamonds and crystals and all sorts of other random things he recommends adding to the SGs. I was once told by a non medical professional (I forget how she positioned herself - maybe a healer?) how a magical crystal filled electric powered pad (not scientifically measurable or mentioning heat) cures all ills - it turned out to be a super expensive heating pad, which of course has benefits if used properly. I know @mahgister is not making any money off of this, and if it sounds better to him, then great. A glass of his favorite beverage would improve the sound to him as well.
When @millercarbon says the more the better, and no law of diminishing returns, then why not fill the room with them since they are so inexpensive? The law of diminishing returns is always true Chuck.
What is important to us should be whether or not these are actual audio devices that change the sound, just like acoustic panels and bass traps do, vibration control devices do, equalizers do, DBXs & 3BXs (remember those) or are they some type of biological influencer like the temperature or humidity of the room, even smells or lighting in the room (not its electrical effects on the circuit if on the same one as the stereo or magnetic impact of daylight). And if they are biological, that is OK - enjoy, but don't mention them as an audio enhancer. Maybe a mood enhancer. |
What is important to us should be whether or not these are actual audio devices that change the sound, just like acoustic panels and bass traps do, vibration control devices do, equalizers do, DBXs & 3BXs (remember those) or are they some type of biological influencer like the temperature or humidity of the room, even smells or lighting in the room Do you read my post? TRY AN EXPERIMENT: put a piece of shungite on it: the sound will be compressed... Put an herkimer diamond: the sound will be decompressed... Put the 2 together you will have a balanced effect... Call that an objective perception if many people perceive the 2 effects... IS it difficult to understand? No i dont sell "snake oil" thanks for saying it....I sell creativity.... My brain is not bounded by prejudices.... I tried 30 minerals at least in a set of 2 years experiments....Each one has his own qualitative effects by the way..... I let mantras to believers zealots or to sunday sceptic zealots... Thanks for saying that i am not a crook , only a deluded mind perhaps... 😁 But for me the deluded mind are those participating in the blind consumerism of audio... But deluded mind dont propose experiments... By the way.... If they do, it is easy to falsify.... I can change the sound of a room with a SINGLE straw.... i did it.... Is it delusion? No it is Helmhotz science.... Experiments are not opinions.... They are a process with an end which can be replicated.... Dont upgrade anything before embedding everything right.... is it snake oil? |
Regarding measurement Schumann Resonance, according to Wikipedia article on "Schumann Resonance": "
Measurements[edit]Today Schumann resonances are recorded at many separate research stations around the world. The sensors used to measure Schumann resonances typically consist of two horizontal magnetic inductive coils for measuring the north-south and east-west components of the magnetic field, and a vertical electric dipole antenna for measuring the vertical component of the electric field. A typical passband of the instruments is 3–100 Hz. The Schumann resonance electric field amplitude (~300 microvolts per meter) is much smaller than the static fair-weather electric field (~150 V/m) in the atmosphere. Similarly, the amplitude of the Schumann resonance magnetic field (~1 picotesla) is many orders of magnitude smaller than the Earth's magnetic field (~30–50 microteslas).[25] Specialized receivers and antennas are needed to detect and record Schumann resonances. The electric component is commonly measured with a ball antenna, suggested by Ogawa et al., in 1966,[26] connected to a high-impedance amplifier. The magnetic induction coils typically consist of tens- to hundreds-of-thousands of turns of wire wound around a core of very high magnetic permeability."
So good luck trying this at home folks.....
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So good luck trying this at home folks..... And you think that this is a valid objection ? The experiment of trying to link a chinese S.G. at 10 bucks to improve the sound has nothing to do with your wiki post....Our experiment is NOT measuring accurately the Shumann resonance like in this post.... It has NOTHING to do with it... Mapman do you want to try or do you want to put arguments that have no direct link with which is proposed? Only to confirm your opinionated attitude? Do you want to be right at the cost of being incoherent like in posting this wiki description of how to measure the Schumann resonance to only confort your belief? Are you a professionnal sceptic? if yes i will not discuss further...For me believers or professionnal sceptics are the same delusion....I prefer to think and experiment... In audio i dont buy anything, i dont put any money, i tried to create my sound heaven at peanuts cost, for that believing was of no use at all, scepticism was no more useful.... Thinking was and is useful.... Try to think by yourself.... By the way i succeeded.... At peanuts costs.... |
maghister,
Someone proposed it be measured.
That is how to do it.
You emotions are getting the best of you. You seem to take any questions about these things as a personal attack. You know they are not. Merely discussion to get to the facts....ie keep it real. Also light, if possible. Nothing more valuable than that. That is my only goal. If you find that threatening, then look in the mirror for the cause my friend. No need to justify yourself. We all do things our own way and we hear what we hear.
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You emotions are getting the best of you. You seem to take any questions about these things as a personal attack. You know they are not. Merely discussion to get to the facts....ie keep it real. Nothing more valuable than that. If you find that threatening, then look in the mirror for the cause my friend.
You are right i take things too personal... I apologize another time for that.... BUT Measuring the schumann frequency itself and measuring a change in DB coming from a speakers ARE not the same thing... You confuse the 2.... To suggest that the whole idea is unsensical... What is unsensical is confusing a complex apparatus to measure the real earth resonance of Schumann, with measuring a possible change in db coming from speakers... bemused has NEVER proposed to measure the Schumann resonance from speakers... He as suggested a debatable process experiment to measure a possible change in frequencies energy coming from the speakers when a cheap chinese device is in the room...... That is my point... You citation post make no sense except to confort a refusal to experiment yourself... Dont experiment if you decide not.... It is perfectly correct... But dont post unsensical argument about a simple experiment ... |
No reason not to take a measurement with music playing..
Switch Mr.Schumann on and then off for the section of music to be repeated. If there is a failure to detect and record a difference that either means there is no difference or I or we have no predictable method to measure a difference. That does not mean that our bodies and minds cannot sense the difference. Tom |
Also as a static test see if there is a detection by the micro phone when Mr.Shumann is switched on and off with no music so to check for ambient content of the room and air. Tom |
Since I don't know how to save a thread, I'll use this as a place holder for later. |
...just to make matters worse.....a couple of years ago I read putting some kind of stone (don't remember)in my house electrical panel, it would make my system sound better. I did.....it did |
I painted my incoming electrical service meter box with a conductive paint I now use on other components. After the first coat and listening to my hifi the difference was quite exciting. Tom |
"Since I don't know how to save a thread, I'll use this as a place holder for later." That's how you save a thread. |
...just to make matters worse.....a couple of years ago I read putting some kind of stone (don’t remember)in my house electrical panel, it would make my system sound better. I did.....it did You are completely deluded.... Instead of taking unsensical measure, invest in real audio, buy a new dac or a new amplifier... You will be enlightened...And equalizer will do, a costly one will be better and you will begin to be rational... Now you suffer placebo disease... What are the cost of this "snake oil" completely irrational act? 😁😊😎 |
I guess it depends on the stone and how stoned things got as to whether it sounds better or worse. |
I have an all Ayre system.....need nothing better. One who is really an audiophile will experiment instead of stamping feet decrying "impossible" |
I have an all Ayre system.....need nothing better. One who is really an audiophile will experiment instead of stamping feet decrying "impossible" I concur totally with your post... My Sansui AU 7700 is a legendary good vintage, my Dac is a miracle at peanut costs, and my speakers are very good one: Mission Cyrus 781... My question few years ago was why i dont love my very well chosen components? The answer came clearly to my mind in the last 3 or 2 years slowly...With experiments... My system so good it was , has never been installed rightfully in his 3 working embeddings dimensions...Mechanical, electrical and acoustical... It is not surprizing that i was not in love with it like i am now....I has never listen to it working at his optimal potential like most people here their own system unbeknownst to them... I described all my creations in my 23 pages solitary thread for 2 years; "miracles in Audio".... This was my journey... If i succeeded anybody can at NO cost or at very low one....The advantage i have was an audio room a room where i could plan my experiments that help a lot... I never bought "tweaks" for creating my heaven, they are way too costly, i replicated and modified some or simply invented new one...Like my S.G. grid connected and modified with minerals and stone... Like my specific 18 Helmholtz-Fibonacci pipes and tubes grid that work like a room tuner and created an activated room... Like my "golden plates" all along my electrical grid etc.... Like my dyssemetric compressive use of springs with damped box speakers....And other devices too "foolish" to mention here among, enlightened perhaps, but passive sceptic consumers.... But it seems, except for few people, that tried some of my idea, others believe only in costly upgrading and prefer to stay unsatisfied or forgetting their S.Q. or throwing money chasing their tails or the moon .... That was not my way.... |
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@djones "Where can I find some scientific papers that back up this claim?"
Google search for brain wave frequencies - alpha, beta, theta.
@sokogear Go get yourself an oscilloscope, open up the device, and you will measure the frequency. I guarantee that it will be a square wave 7 - 8 Hz. An EMF meter should measure ULF (ultra low frequency) placed over the device. Get a sound level meter. Play a CD of pink/white noise, whatever, through your system and point the meter to the speakers from your listening position.
Measure. Power on the Schumann resonator. Repeat the measurement. Any change that occurs is due to the harmonic series derived from the Schumann square wave frequency resonating with the pink/white noise CD signals.You will hear it - the increase in amplitude. And the dB meter doesn't lie.
I have done this simple test. It verifies what your ears tell you - that the sound pressure level got stronger or the sound got LOUDER! Anyone can do this. Just leave out the bias and bring in intellectual honesty.
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@bemused - I don’t own a pink noise generator and my CD player hasn’t been hooked up in15-20 years.
I agree with @theaudiotweak. Measure the sound with a microphone with and without the SGs playing normal audible music, not pink noise. I don’t know anyone who listens to pink noise (by itself). I don’t own a mic or any SGs.
Then please report the results. I’m not looking at lab results; just ones from a normal room where stereos are played. @mahgister seems to say they also need crystals, diamonds, pipes, etc. and he can change the sound with a straw.
If this doesn’t make you skeptical, I don’t know what will. |
