So what are the magic minerals you add to your paint? Cryo? |
He doesn’t think that is the case. Everything is a startling improvement. |
This discussion is priceless. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you think it makes your system sound better, then it does.
Foreign governments tortured hotel guest with inaudible sound waves that got headaches and got physically sick not knowing why. Perhaps this has the opposite effect as people are reporting. Maybe try drinking a glass of champagne before listening. Bet it makes the stereo sound better..... |
Of course a magnetic field creates electric current, Physics 101. Just like current creates a magnetic field, especially in wires in loops.
I would love to see someone actually measure sound (which is what we can agree on here is what matters) with and without the SGs in a room at different listening positions with and without the devices just like when you prep a room for acoustic treatments.
I would bet it is not measurable, especially since the main proponents are saying it doesn't matter where they are placed.
Some things are measurable and not audible, but not the other way around.
It probably has some effect on some people who can then become better focused on the tremendous detail in the sound. Those people may be more relaxed. It shows up in health articles that ARE scientific as being potentially beneficial.
Please someone who has the SGs and sound measurement equipment put this argument to bed (if that is possible). I doubt it will change anyone's opinion on whether to use them or not, but it would be nice to at least prove what you are hearing is actually out there.
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@bemused,@mapman
I am just trying to get some agreement on whether these things change the actual measurable sound in the room. Not how we process it.
I am not an acoustical or sound engineer (but admittedly am an engineer who believes in science and showing how experiments support theories on a repeatable basis). You say it should increase the sound by a fraction of a dB. Have you done this? Is that tiny increase noticeable?
I don't have a DB meter or pink noise generator and am not sure that is what a microphone is measuring in preparation for acoustic treatment. I thought it looks at different frequencies. I don't have one of those either.
Please can a unbiased person do this?
I hear @mahgister talk about metal plates and diamonds and crystals and all sorts of other random things he recommends adding to the SGs. I was once told by a non medical professional (I forget how she positioned herself - maybe a healer?) how a magical crystal filled electric powered pad (not scientifically measurable or mentioning heat) cures all ills - it turned out to be a super expensive heating pad, which of course has benefits if used properly. I know @mahgister is not making any money off of this, and if it sounds better to him, then great. A glass of his favorite beverage would improve the sound to him as well.
When @millercarbon says the more the better, and no law of diminishing returns, then why not fill the room with them since they are so inexpensive? The law of diminishing returns is always true Chuck.
What is important to us should be whether or not these are actual audio devices that change the sound, just like acoustic panels and bass traps do, vibration control devices do, equalizers do, DBXs & 3BXs (remember those) or are they some type of biological influencer like the temperature or humidity of the room, even smells or lighting in the room (not its electrical effects on the circuit if on the same one as the stereo or magnetic impact of daylight). And if they are biological, that is OK - enjoy, but don't mention them as an audio enhancer. Maybe a mood enhancer. |
@bemused - I don’t own a pink noise generator and my CD player hasn’t been hooked up in15-20 years.
I agree with @theaudiotweak. Measure the sound with a microphone with and without the SGs playing normal audible music, not pink noise. I don’t know anyone who listens to pink noise (by itself). I don’t own a mic or any SGs.
Then please report the results. I’m not looking at lab results; just ones from a normal room where stereos are played. @mahgister seems to say they also need crystals, diamonds, pipes, etc. and he can change the sound with a straw.
If this doesn’t make you skeptical, I don’t know what will. |
@mahgister - I am glad you finally came around and are willing to admit it may be affecting you and not the sound. I have no opinion, I only beleive in FACTS.
@sbayne - you are a helluva researcher. How many of those articles talk about SG effects on a stereo system versus the human body?
Until someone can show me one of the 2 following things, I will surmise that SGs may effect some people physiologically, but NOT audible sound before it hits your ear and enters your brain:
1) A single professional audio consultant who designs concert venues, move theaters, recording studios, home theaters, stereo store demonstration rooms or home audio rooms who uses SGs. These guys charge by the hour, not the equipment, so they would MAKE money by increasing time spent having to worry about where to place these things and don't.
2) A measured microphone input signal from a listening position with and without SGs from a record or CD at a constant volume from a stereo system. Not pink noise. Not decibel meters that measure inaudible waves like those the SGs generate. Real audible sound, corresponding frequencies and volume (amplitudes).
I won't respond again until someone shows me one of these 2 things. This repetition is exhausting.....seems like Monty Python's "The Argument" and time's up! |
@millercarbon- Chuck you have got to be kidding me. “I don’t spend a lot of time obsessing over minutiae”. Absolutely hysterical! 7836 posts and counting. I like AG, especially for its entertainment value, but it is at least 50% minutiae, and probably 95% repetition as you can get the same topics that are debated many many times. Hearing recommendations for members goals is interesting.
You have mentioned countless tweaks, some very valuable and appreciated, some like these SGs simply science fiction from a purely sound standpoint that hits your ears. I can’t speak about between the ears and the brain. At least your others are based on scientific fact, although they may or may not be audible.
i believe that you have good ears and your system sounds great, but please just admit as @mahgister has that these SGs may be all in your head. |
@mahgister- this is all for fun, and if it weren’t for these weird reported physiological effects, I might’ve tried the SGs out. I’ve learned a lot on AG and improved my system tremendously, sometimes very inexpensively, others little chunks here and there. I really never knew that so many people spend so much $$ on stereo equipment and are so seriously committed to it. I try to get the best bang for my buck just for the sound, not the looks or to impress anyone but me. I used to think $25K for a stereo was a lot of money, now I think I am a beginner after 40+ years with a low 5 figure (barely) investment. Some are spending 6 figures without a second thought. It must be nice.....
@Dekay - WOW. Maybe it interfered with the tv signal? Did you try to see if it changed the sound on your stereo? There is no signal to interfere with over the air there. |
@mahgister- I am not opinionated at all. I just want to know why. I posted 2 ways I could be swayed 2/26 @ 11:13AM (I can’t figure out how to copy on my iPad and am too lazy to walk to my office laptop).
I am very open minded and always want Improvement from anything, stereo or otherwise, taking into the law of diminishing returns, but also very logical. When something doesn’t make sense to me from a normally sensible person, I try to figure it out.
I stopped postting on this discussion since my post I mentioned until someone responds to that, but couldn’t let @millercarbon post about not caring about minutiae go with no response. It was truly hilarious.
see if you can come up with one of them. |
@theaudiotweak - is comedian your full time job? |
In short, theoretically everything that touches the audio signal, power (from the electric company to the component) or sound waves coming from the speakers matters.
In reality, only some are audible. I have done several tweaks - in my mind if it is not immediately noticeable, it doesn't register. Break in period makes it almost impossible to notice. Especially if it is supposed to have no initial effect. At least when they talk of speaker or cartridge break in, the initial sound change should be substantial and only improve from there.
It seems to me that the ones affecting the source are the most impactful, and it is reduced down the line of the signal as it is further distorted. For example, vibration control on a turntable that is not a highly controlled table like an SME, such as my Rega P8, when put on Townshend pods (seismic platform actually which I recommend more because you don't have to worry about positioning them - they come attached and fixed and individually adjustable for tension) sounded like a completely new table. When the same treatment was added to my solid state amp, I couldn't hear the difference. I put lesser vibration controls (read cheaper silicone feet) on that and my phono stage because I know they theoretically improve the sound, I just can't identify it specifically. I think that is what MillerCarbon does. He knows in theory it improves the sound and does whatever he can in that regard. It's a free country. I like to justify any expenditure. I find it hard to beleive he can hear every single thing he's done and when removed he would notice it. Double blind test would be nice to hear.
I appreciate honesty and transparency when assessing the impact of the individual tweaks. I was going to put some bass traps in my den as recommended by a member and in general. When speaking with GIK Acoustics, they reviewed my pictures of my room and because of the unique layout and placement limitations (and those of my wife) they recommended doing nothing when I spoke with him. I wanted to buy a couple things and the guy said for that small amount of treatment, I would not be able to tell the difference. What refreshing honesty!
I am trying to assess HFTs (under a different discussion) and would appreciate feedback on them from anyone who has tried them. They sound good in theory. This discussion seems to get big airtime, so I am hoping to get a lot of perspectives, especially from people more like me that have very good systems worth in the low 5 figures that blend into a non-dedicated listening room, not the ones that are huge, room consuming of mid 5 figures and up that are typically dedicated and set up for listening primarily. They look like demo rooms of audio stores, which is fine if that is what you want, all power to you. It would be nice, I just don't have the space/room that would make a good home for it.
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Sorry - I have no idea he was putting shungite (whatever that is) on his "electrical service" and where that ends.
Like I said in theory it may have an effect. Whether or not you can hear it is another issue. Unless he shungites the electricity from the connection point to his house to the "outside electric service" I guess at the curb it makes me doubtful.
Are you using a power conditioner to smooth out the power spikes? |
Mahgister - you are not nuts. Like you say, you are conducting experiments in a lab type environment. You are not imposing a lab look into your living area like Chuck McGill on Better Call Saul. Sounds like you are having fun which is what this hobby is all about. I like hearing about your experiments.
It consumed Chuck's life and literally drove him nuts.
Double blind tests eliminate any bias, so long as they are conducted properly, which is not easy. Warm up times, adding or removing (or not changing) the variable, playing the passage exactly the same way, having the moderator not inadvertantly disclosing cues at whether or not they did anything, etc. An offhand comment about something sounding muddy when a speaker was moved off a cable elevator does not cut it.
If something does not have a logical description of how or why it works, then we should be skeptical. If something does, then it is up to the individual to determine the effect on the sound and if any, if it is worth the expenditure.
The easier it is to understand the logical description by someone with a basic understanding of science and the scientific method, the greater the probability that it is worth consideration. People who dismiss double blind testing obviously do not have that and can't imagine an experiment on how to measure gravity's effect on falling objects for example, they just beleive it. Do they even know that the force due to gravity changes on the moon? Do they even care? |
@millercarbon- I have to agree with @thecarpathian. How can every little thing be “startlingly better”? There is no scale of degrees of improvement? Suspension helps turntables, phono stages, amps and preamps, speakers all incredibly? Nothing is a subtle or mild Improvement? NOBODY else says this.
I am not by any means on an upgrade treadmill. Amp is 15 years old. Cartridge 10 (replaced identically last August when the stylus wore out). Turntable is 2, but I don’t foresee a change (maybe the arm if I get really antsy) conditioner around 5, speakers are only a year, but they replaced 25 year old ones. Hardly an upgrade treadmill. Like I said, the suspension upgrade was startling, but it is hard to imagine tens of more tweaks having the same impact, but I am certainly open minded to what has the potential to do so.
Even @mahgister admits variations in improvements with various experiments he conducts. You criticize double blind testing. I wonder why....maybe you would fail to recognize the removal of cryo from some wires, springs from a power conditioner, SGs? I’d like to hear of any documentation of how any testing was actually done.
I do admire your passion for the hobby and would love to hear your incredibly complex system, but would not fly coast to coast to hear it. If I ever found myself in Seattle however (hasn’t happened yet) I will reach out to set up a time to stop by. |
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If anyone watches Better Call Saul, some of these unnamed posters/painters seeking to keep out EMR from their electric current remind me of Jimmy’s brother Chuck. Their stereo power has to be 100% pristine clean. Unless you are running off of your own transformer, you are relying on the electric company and you can’t get rid of all the noise. A good power conditioner will get rid of most. Nothing is perfect.
Remember Chuck McGill’s house? Windows covered to prevent sunlight from coming in, all appliances off and he lived by candlelight? He was NUTS!!!! Unfortunately they killed him off the show, but he was hilarious. If you haven’t seen the show, stream it. It is the prequel series to Breaking Bad, one of the best shows of all time. Better Call Saul is excellent also, but it is not as great as BB.
Bet those changes to his whole life made his electrical grid quiet.....Don’t make your house look like Chuck’s. |
You’re welcome @mahgister. |
+1 @thecarpathian to @millercarbon saying the dramatic degradation of sound quality taking out 5 SG’s from his system is sad for all the time and effort he invested on the other myriad tweaks, equipment, electric upgrades, etc.
I bet you can’t find one other honest person to agree that the removal of half of their SGs has such a negative effect on their system’s sound.
Other Audigoners who have tried your experiment have dismissed SGs as far as audio improvement but they don’t want to get into any sparring on this now ridiculous discussion.
Can’t you admit just once that you are exaggerating the benefit of something? I know you don’t promote SGs like Tektons, Moabs, , Raven Amps and Better Records but please give it a break.
@Mahgister- I would never call you a minion. You are about as independent thinking as anyone I’ve ever seen and obviously unafraid to put yourself out there.
As a matter of fact MC is SO far out there, I would say he has no minions, only trusting people looking for help, which he sometimes provides. No need to act like an Oracle, this stuff is very much a matter of personal taste and perception and is debatable, down to the $2000 & up power cables’ value proposition.
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So what was the final blind test tally for these things?
I’ve only heard positives anecdotally, which is fine for those that are happy with them, and the only blind test I’ve heard told me they did nothing to the sound in a legit blind test. He hasn’t posted here, preferring to stay out of the fray.
He’s been very honest in the past with his many tweaks and has been mostly positive with the acoustic, vibration and electric improvements to his system, although some were very subtle.
My experience is similar to his. I would be tempted to try these things if I could hear of any positive blind tests, which should be quite easy to perform. Otherwise, I prefer to try things based on audio impact, not medical with audio being an unscientific byproduct.
Anybody, Bueller, anyone??? |
I appreciate your sincere honesty @mahgister.
MC - I don't want to go through the hassle of ordering, arranging them, testing them and then probably having to pack them back up, go to a shipping place and return them.
If I can get ONE or TWO people to tell me they have heard a difference when having someone else turn them on or off randomly or turn some of them off while blindfolded I'd probably try them.
As magister says, my room has not been treated acoustically, so they probably would not work. MC-when I saw your room pictured, I didn't see much in acoustic treatments which makes me suspect you are being victimized by confirmation bias, but I understand you are too scared of the results to do a 3 second test.
I'll give it another day or so, then leave this epic discussion about a medical potential solution. |
Thanks @willgolf for the honest assessment. Sorry to hear about your vision problems which should only improve your hearing. Sounds like you are a major tweaker and can determine which are worthwhile. I'm not surprised the Schumann Resonator is not one of them.
Still looking for a blind test positive....
Gotta love Pat Metheny The first album, all white with Lyle Mays (R.I.P) on piano in the original Pat Metheny Group) is the original audiophile test album that was played during my first real stereo purchase in 1980. All Yamaha....except cartridge Micro acoustics I think). Heavily influenced by the salesman and the price range.
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I’ve seen Pat Metheny/PM Group probably 8-10 times (including the disastrous Orchestrion tour) and have at least 12 albums, the majority on vinyl.
I wouldn’t say favorite though....that has to be Donald Fagen, never to tour again solo, only as Steely Dan. R.I.P Walter Becker. 15+ concerts and every single original SD or DF album (no greatest hits that kill album themes-except Alive in America) released in the US on vinyl, and the other handful on CD. Maybe 15 albums.... Never miss a tour. Hopefully he’ll come out when the venues open to capacity. Even bought his book and met him briefly. He’s not the warmest and fuzziest.... |
@willgolf - true about Pat Metheny, but that is true about almost everyone, except maybe Neil Young. Although Pat's newest double album from last year is very reminiscent of his early incredible albums. Not "experimental" at all.
I've heard of Al DiMeola. I'll have to check him out. Never heard of the others - I'll check them out too. It's hard for me to listen to new groups unless they happen to be on Sirius when I drive my wife's car and they allow their songs on the Real Jazz or Watercolors stations. It's hard to roll the dice for $25 for vinyl if I'm not sure I'll like it and play it. The last new one I checked out was John Scofield, who was recommended by my brother in law. It was pleasant/nice enough, but nothing special. I considered him a poor man's Larry Carlton (who also is not a favorite, but since he recorded with Steely Dan for a while back in the day I have a few of his CDs, which rarely get played).
For me other jazz guitar favorites are Earl Klugh, George Benson and Lee Ritenour. As far as rock, Mark Knopfler/Dire Straits, Steve Howe/Yes, Brian May/Queen and of course Clapton are at the top of my list.
Please don't forget the GOAT who most (at least the jazz guys) claim to be their idol, Wes Montgomery (R.I.P.). His collaboration albums with Milt Jackson and Jimmy Smith are 2 of my favorite albums. Also his recording with Miles' band, Full House is incredible. |
@douglas_schroeder Nice article.You're going to raise some temperatures around here with MC at the head of the line of true believers regarding some audiophile tweaks like this Schumann Resonator thing (which I think is among the craziest I've heard of).
I do believe (and have most definitely heard) tremendous improvement is possible with vibration control of turntables, assuming they have existing issues with that as my Rega P8 did. I doubt putting the platform under an SME table would have the same impact. I probably had the most room for improvement - a 10 pound table sitting on a credenza on a suspended floor over a crawl space. Putting it on a wall shelf on top of a Townshend platform made it sound like a new table. It sounded almost as good sitting on the credenza and the platform, but that combo created foot falls that didn't exist before, so I had to put it on a wall shelf. Luckily, I was able to do that because I would have kept the platform without the wall shelf because it sounded so much better, and I would have lived with stepping lightly near the stereo.
I also believe as AJ van den Hul states in his 100 page audio white paper/encyclopedia on his web site that moving wires has a short term change in sound until returned to their steady state. That would imply that vibrations in cables, amps and the like would impact SQ, however, I don't believe it is audible under "normal" circumstances. I put Herbie's tenderfeet under my amp and phono stage because of the low cost and theoretical improvement, but haven't noticed any. I also had the high cost Townshend pods under the amp for a couple weeks and they made no difference. This is on top of the credenza and suspended floor!
Plinius recommends leaving their amps on, which I do, and really never experimented with turning them on just for listening sessions, and my phono stage has no on/off switch. Perhaps frequently turning the amp on and off puts some stress somewhere in the amp and may cause it to wear quicker? Their products will last longer and sound better from their experience, so who am I to question?
I was told that my speakers would sound better over time as the drivers broke in, but they sounded great from the get go, and I can't say if they improved over time as there is so much variation in SQ from album to album. Plus it's not like you turn a switch and voila, they sound better. It's probably very gradual like an asymptotic graph reaching a theoretical optimal level.
Like you, I am not interested in subtle or very subtle improvements, and I have been surprised by how little my turntable improved in sound in an upgrade from the Rega P5 to the P8 while using the same arm from the P8. If I can't hear am easily noticeable change when hooking up the new equipment or change, it's not worth it to me.
I think if people want to hear a difference, they can convince their brain that they do, but if they wanted to really be honest with themselves, they would do blind tests. I asked posters on this discussion to do that, and so far only one has done it and he said it made no difference to the sound, and maybe widened the soundstage very slightly. |
@cd318 - my point was that I was surprised that the improvement from changing arms from the Rega P5 arm (RB700) to the one from the P8 (RB880) ON the P5 table was much more significant than when I changed the table itself (of course keeping the RB880) from the P5 to the P8.
I expected the table upgrade to be more noticeable, especially since it cost more than the arm upgrade alone. I am still glad I upgraded the table because it has a few features I really like - the better wiring and connectors to the PSU and from the arm, and the dustcover design in addition to sounding better.
It would be interesting to compare the P8 to much more expensive tables if they were placed on a perfectly non-vibrating surface. Regas have low internal noise due to their low mass, but can be vibrated easily because of it. I guess that's why Rega sells wall shelves specifically for the P8/P10. If you really want to see the philosophy taken to extremes, check out the Rega Naiad. It looks like it weighs nothing. It is the design model the P8 and P10 are based on. i think it goes for $40K and is very limited in production, if at all. Probably by special order only.
@theaudiotweak - not surprising that warming up an amp for 45 minutes from dead cold would improve the sound. I think the argument that Doug is making is about burn or break in not being important, not warm up. I think that is universally agreed upon. |
MC- glad we’re in agreement in disturbing wires causing sound disparities, and of course different cables can sound better than others within manufacturers. I keep my cables off the floor and none touch each other- without cable elevators.
It’s all about the law of diminishing returns and how much the improvement is worth to you versus the total stereo investment.
@theaudiotweak - Plinius says 24 hours for maximum sound warm up. Not sure if it’s superconductive though. That’s I why always leave it on- except when the cleaning comes- just out of extreme paranoia. FYI- I turned it back on right after they left around 2 and when I listened around 5-6 it did not sound right.....tomorrow will be better. I may gamble and leave it on next time....nah. |
