I call BS Teres!
many other machines can do a job as well as a CNC machine, don't blame the equipment, look at the material! QC is QC either it is on or not...
good product but there are limitations to the medium
state the facts don't skate |
Sayas,
Me thinks thou doest protest too much.
Consider yourself flammed as that seems to be all you are looking for. |
I don't share the concerns about humidity migrating into and out of the wooden pieces. Every one of the finished pieces is finished with an epoxy resin. That's a pretty substantial barrier. Besides, violins, guitars, cellos and other much more delicate wooden items have survived the test of time. These turntables will not experience the forces of a speaker cabinet and they are made out of much less substantial materials. Father time will be the ultimate judge on this issue and this thread will be long gone before the results are in. |
Sayas, You are mistaken and misinformed, FACT. But, you're right saying that other "machines" can do just as good a job. I finish sanded my plinth and armboard today. By hand. With a block. Just for shits & grins, I pulled out the dial indicator and a surface plate (I know a little ((actually a lot)) more about manufacturing and tolerances than I let on) and decided to check the parallel surfaces. There is less than .010" difference across the plinth, on both sides. On the arm board there is less than .005". That just goes to show you that it is very possible to get the same finish in wood as you can in metal, or anything else. I could probably do less than .002" in metal, but like I said before, what for? Patrick, I agree after a little reflection, kinda. As an acoustic guitar player for about 30 years, I can tell you that string instruments most definitely react to temp & humidity changes. Acoustical instruments more so. This has a lot to do with the thinness of the wood, scalloped bracing, and the tension of the strings. Tonewoods react to these variables. Besides, violins, guitars, cellos and other much more delicate wooden items have survived the test of time. These turntables will not experience the forces of a speaker cabinet and they are made out of much less substantial materials. Father time will be the ultimate judge on this issue and this thread will be long gone before the results are in. Look at any pre 1950 Martin and you will see the effects of aging on a guitar. While it is true that forces that affect these other instruments and speakers do not affect a TT, the sealing with epoxy goes a long way in preventing this. But I do agree with you re the wood platter. Like I said before, if Tom's Teres shows no ill effects from his rather drastic and repeated temp & humidity changes, I don't think anyone else out there even needs to worry about it, period! |
Arrgh! You pulled me back out with the Martin reference. I once had the long term loan of a '39 0-18, which had originally belonged to the grandmother in a family close to ours. I received it when I was about 14 years old (began playing at 11), and the bridge had raised up due to its having been left unattended in its case for years with the strings tensioned. So my folks sent it off to Martin, and they did a super repair job. I played that thing like crazy for around 10 years - never played another guitar that 'talked' so responsively. Then, a relative in the family it had come from decided he wanted to play the guitar, so I had to give it up. Long story short, he moved to tropical Miami, and when I visited him a few years back, the Martin had been rendered completely unplayable by the climate, much worse than when I had gotten it. To me, it looked ruined and sounded like hell (couldn't be tuned at all, and barely fretted up the neck). Naturally, he had given up on trying to play years before. What a waste...it's an ambition of mine to one day own another (probably a 00 or 000 though). |
Okay, maybe I didn't state the obvious about wooden musical instruments. They do require periodic attention by a luthier. Having owned two Martins myself since 1969 I had them tweaked a total of three times. I'm guilty of over simplifying. I figured readers would have a grasp of the abuses a stringed instrument undergoes and the stresses required for it to play. None of these issues are faced by a turntable platter. Hey Zakes, I sold my 000-18 to an old employer about twelve years ago and the last time I asked it was still under his bed, unplayed. Occassionaly I long for that guitar but prefer the dreadnaught bodies. Like stereo gear it would be nice to have multiples. |
I still have my D35. After owning about 30 in my lifetime, I kept the Martin and a Takamine classical signed by Lee Ritenour. I keep them temp & humidity controlled! |
Yeah, my only acoustic right now is a 70's Yamaha dreadnaught that belonged to an old girlfriend (yes, she gave it me, no, I didn't steal it, or even particularly want it, but it serves OK). I like the sound of a more narrow-waisted, rounded-bout guitar than a dreadnaught. I'd also love to get a really decent classical instrument, but hardly know where to start in that department... |
Currently building 2 D-41, 2 D-45, 2 D-18, and a Venetian double cutaway dreadnaught. The D-41's are maple of course, and we used some very nice quilted maple on one, and a superb feathercrotch maple on the other.Bindings are snakewood on these maple guitars,and flamed maple bindings on our dark wood guitars, as we don't use any plastic on our custom guitars. Full D-45 style abalone trim. The snakewood bindings and trim on the tail, neck heel, headstock, bridge, and back strip, really give a killer look. We are even using a snakewood fingerboard on the feathercrotch guitar. Fancy maple and snakewood is an awesome looking combination. The double cutaway is from exhibition grade Bubinga and bound with flamed maple. All have master-grade German spruce tops and our custom German Spruce modified X-bracing(similar to pre-war). Honduran mahogany kerfing and blocks, and Honduran mahogany one-piece neck. Alot of work, but they are great sounding and great looking instruments. This bracing allows medium strings without worrying too much about "bellying" the top.
Sorry to drift off topic, but I had correspond with the other guitar buffs. |
Speaking of both cocobolo and guitars, my son recently acquired a Taylor 710LTD which has a cocobolo two-piece back. Sounds deeper in tone to his 414ce in Ovangkol and when opening the case, I get a wiff reminiscent of coffee! :-) |
TWL have any pictures you could post? Thanks |
Mejames, I don't have a digital camera, but the guy that owns the guitar shop that I work after-hours at has one, and I'll try to get some pix from him. I won't be going over there till the weekend.
David, I like Cocobolo for guitars too. It sounds real good and looks great too. I prefer it to Indian Rosewood, and some people feel it is competitive with Brazilian. We're making a Cocobolo D-45 with a 2-piece back, that has a wide sapwood streak down the middle, and looks fantastic. |
Well, I have a fabulous two-LP set of Narcisco Yepes playing Bach's lute music. His theorbo-lute had cocobolo pegs. Does that count? :)
I'm envious of you musicians. When I sing in the shower the soap even runs away. |
When I was a kid I once saw Bobo Brazil give his 'rassler opponent a coco-butt. |
Well, now that that's over (I saw Bobo take the Tasmanian Devil, with a folding chair. Not sure if the chair was cocobolo or not:), I have to say that IMHO Cocobolo does not have the resonant properties that other tonewoods have. I think that is what makes it such a good choice for a turntable. While it is very dense, it is also very weak.
I don't know how it will hold up in a guitar, since I've never had one made from it. But I have a feeling it will crack to beat all hell after time. Funny, since it is a member of the Brazilian Rosewood family. Don't know why this may be so.
Ideas?
P.S Had the whole plinth done today. Then I deided I didn't like the way the veneer looked. So, tomorrow I am doing it over. I said what the hell, I have this much time in it, let's do it over so I'll have no regrets. The arm board and sub base are done, finished, steel wooled, and waxed, and they look spectacular. What's a couple more days? |
The arm, armboard, VTA collar and cartridge were all sent to Teres by January. I haven't heard anything from Teres although the owner has been contacted recently with an offer of Chris to come to Boise to set up the table. If the VTA was at its minimum (no further adjustment available) and the cartridge body was at level which is about 2° shy of optimum, I would like to know what the solution was/is. Curiously, it appears I'm being taken out of the loop. I'm beginning to believe I committed the ultimate sin by posting to a public forum problems that went unanswered through private communication. |
Lugnut,
You correctly read the situation in that you are being taken out of the loop. But the reasons are only partially correct. Please look at this from my situation. A customer orders a turntable and after many months of frustrating and confusing communucation (with you, not the buyer) we are unable to resolve what should have been a very simple problem. Finally in frustration I ask the buyer to send me the arm, armboard and cartridge so that I can sort out the problem. When I get the parts I find that there is no problem. I have the arm, armboard and cartridge setup on a 265 in my room and it all fits perfect, with plenty of room to adjust the VTA. The only real problem was because OL changed their VTA adapter the mounting hole was slightly undersized. This was identified very early in the process and I offered to redrill the armboard, but you opted to take care of it yourself. So with or without your post I would have wanted you out of the loop. Can you blame me?
Of course your negative post did not help matters at all. As it turns out some of the claimed problems didn't exist and others were exaggerated. At the time I thought that your comments and representations were quite unfair. Now with a little more information I feel more free to say what I thought then.
I am committed to customer statisfaction. That's why I will be flying to Boise to setup Steve's turntable for him. But from your post it seems that you are still unhappy with me. This even though I have clearly gone above and beyond with resolving this problem for your friend.
Chris |
Chris,
I only wish that I could post the photographs that I have taken of the QC issues and the emails and photos forwarded to you. On THIS 265 with the VTA set at the minimum the cartridge body is, at best, level. If the VTA can be correctly adjusted on your trip to Boise then something else has been changed since January.
Look at it from my point of view. I recommended this combination to my friend based on a lot of research and communications with other Teres owners. I agreed to set this up as the owner didn't have any experience. Assembly of the parts is not difficult and the only nervousness I had was with handling the delicate arm and cartridge more times than was necessary. Initially, the arm wouldn't even mount because the bottom hole was too shallow. Yes, I chose to buy a $12 forstner bit and do this myself because the shipping/insurance to you exceeded the price of the bit. Then, I had to provide clearance for the VTA collar as the top hole was drilled for an arm without VTA adjustment. It's my understanding that you were informed at the time the order was placed which arm was to be mounted. After final mounting of the arm and listening while adjusting VTA my ears told me it needed to be lowered more even after minimum VTA adjustment was acheived. Those are the facts.
I also communicated with a few other members here who own either the cartrdige, arm, table or a combination of the above and forwarded them the same photos I sent you. Everyone that saw the cartridge body photos agreed that proper VTA had not been acheived.
Per your request I sent the armboard and VTA collar to Oregon which was where you said it was manufactured. I enclosed correspondence detailing my experiences to date and strongly suggested that the correct diameter holes and hole depths be drilled in the future as well as the QC issues I described above. Unkown to me, it was your father who manufactured the armboard and based on your last email to me he was offended and in turn, you were too.
Early on I offered to send to you the parts that are in your posession now. On this end the problems could have been the result of three different manufacturers, Teres, Origin Live or Shelter and I have no way of knowing. I talked to the supplier of the tonearm/cartridge and compared my minimum VTA settings with his proper setting. He provide me a measurement of tonearm to record clearance in the middle of a record. I wasn't even close to the setting he was using and again, there was no further adjustment.
Phone calls and emails to you went unanswered for which you apologized for in an email dated January 11, 2004, referring to a server problem. Interestingly enough, the unanswered emails prompted me to have another friend inquire about a new table before I finally heard from you and he received an immediate response. Perhaps there was a server problem on your end but unless it also controls your voice mail my phone calls were not responded to either.
I made one mistake in this thread and corrected it as soon as I read it online. I couldn't edit that post because someone else had already posted another comment.
I stand behind my remarks about the tolerances of the Cocobolo 265 that still sits in my music room, running out of VTA adjustment and your lack of communication during a much too long period of time. Negative post? Until today, in spite of the many Teres owners who have contributed to this thread, nobody accused me of making negative remarks. I posted today what I came to believe and you have confirmed it to the community.
|
I would have thought that this was settled a long time ago. |
...I don't imagine Patrick will be satisfied to stay away from his friend's house when Chris comes to do his thing - and well he shouldn't be. That'll be an interesting day - here's hoping that afterward, they can turn to the 'table's owner and say "We're taking you out to dinner", as opposed to "We're taking this out in the alley"... |
Having been in sales for many years with a very well run company, it seems that about once a year I get a "transaction from hell". It starts out with a problem and each time I fix it, it seems to get worse! The only solution is to "over-manage" the situation and wrestle it to the mat. Virtually everyone I know that's in business has the same experience and Chris is probably no exception.
Patrick, I think you'll realize that Teres reputation here is pretty solid and that your situation is likely an aberation- honey will probably work better than vinegar in these situations. And Chris, keep 'raslin'!
Good Luck! |
I debated on whether to post to this thread again because I suppose it is really none of my business. However, I will share what I have seen only because I don't want it to seem like Patrick is off his rocker, here, or anything. I was one of those to whom Patrick sent pictures of his friend's Teres setup. Patrick had inquired of me initially because I, too, owned an OL Illustrious and he had some questions about VTA adjustment. As it turned out, I had a similar situation with the Illustrious on a 'Not table (not being able to achieve an adequately low "ass-end" VTA setting). Actually, I could get just a hair under, but no more. My problem solved itself after I began using a Mat1 and its thickness allowed me to set VTA just right.
From the pictures that Patrick sent, it appears that Illustrious is as low as it can get, with the bottom of the pillar smack dead against the VTA collar and the VTA collar smack dead against the armboard. In this position, a picture of a lined index card shows that the headshell is just a bit lower than level (meaning up in the back). OTOH, Chris Brady says that it works fine on another 265 in his shop. This would seem to indicate that the 265 Chris is using is different than the 265 owned by Patricks friend. Is his plinth/platter overall thickness different? I dunno. I do know that looking at Patrick's pictures would give the impression that the only way to rectify the situation would be to lower the armboard in relation to the plinth/platter. But, I also see where Joe has his armboard up on cones whereas Patrick's friend does not. A significant difference? Again, I dunno. Again, I bring this up not to point the fickle of finger of fate but, rather, to explain that Patrick is not formulating bogus claims without what appears to be reasonable and logical evidence.
I sincerely hope that this gets solved to the satisfaction of everyone. If I were the friend I'd have been having seizures of withdrawl long ago! :-) I assume he has another table! Ha! And, as an aside, I must say that it is above and beyond the call on Mr. Bradys part to personally fly out and get the table right. However, should it not be the owners decision with respect to who is in attendance at the fixin? |
4yanx, I also debated about posting earlier on this thread because there is no sense beating a dead horse.
I am at a loss to explain why Patrick and I got different results with the VTA adjustment range. The 265 dimensions for all of the 265 are the same. This is why I was frustrated with the process. All of my data said this should fit and yet Patrick's evidence didn't match mine.
I will not mind at all if Patrick joins us when I setup the table in Boise. And like Zaikesman said I hope it will dinner rather than the alley. |
I've stayed out too, because I figured it was up to Chris and Patrick (and the customer) now. But, as David said, I got the pics too, and I agree that in the pics I have, it looks like the board is too high, not leaving enough room for adjustment.
Now, I will say that when I installed mine (the first one, more like a "stock" 200 board) I could not get mine to adjust either. But, I found the problem, being I DID NOT FOLLOW THE DRAWINGS CHRIS SENT ME. I was all kind of pissed, because it happened at the same time this issue was unfolding. As soon as I realized where the problem was, I knew exactly how to fix it. And man, was I kicking myself in the ass.
When he sent the drawings, Chris stated in an email that they changed the height (down about 1//8") to make VTA adjustment easier. I just plain forgot, and built it to the old measurement. I was in the same boat as Patrick's customer. But, like I said, easy fix for me.
There is one thing I would like to point out that may have been overlooked altogether. When the platter settles, I do not think it settles to the same degree on every table. Mine seems to sit a little high, and others pics I have seen (objective here, pics only) SEEM to show the platter at varing heights above the plinth. Possibly because no two people are going to get the same amopunt of the same oil in the bearing. That 1/16" to 1/8" wil have a marked effect on VTA adjustment. Could this be the problem?
The cones are a different story. That's my idea alone. I tried it to compare sonics between identical arms and cartidges. And it does work, but requires a thinner board. So, I didn't put lead in it, just laminated it out of cocobolo. I really think it opens up the soundstage. The best thing about it other than the sonics is the fact that I have more adjustment possibilties than any other set-up I have seen.
That alone would alleviate Patrick's problem, and Chris, have you ever tried it? It would be interesting to see what you think about it. If any other Teres owner would like to try it, buy the cones and I'll make you an arm board gratis. I would for you too Chris but I figure you might wnat to whip up your own, if you decide to try it ;)
And again I agree with David, "And, as an aside, I must say that it is above and beyond the call on Mr. Bradys part to personally fly out and get the table right." Great follow up for the owner of any company, and my hat's off to you, Chris! |
Nice responses from everyone since this thread re-surfaced. It's great to see things progressing in a positive direction, presumably with a final resolution in sight. The following possible causes for Patrick's VTA problem all come to mind:
a) An air bubble was trapped during bearing assembly (due to oil on the bearing housing sides and/or the bearing shaft for example). This could prevent the bearing from seating fully. (Joe, putting too much oil in the bearing would not keep it from seating fully, the extra oil would just spill out the top. Trust me, I know!)
b) The platter was made too tall.
c) The dimension from platter top surface to the underside of the platter that rests on the bearing flange was made too thick. This would hold the platter up higher than spec.
d) The hole in the platter for the bearing spindle was too tight, preventing the platter from dropping onto the flange.
e) The armboard was too thick.
f) Gremlins.
I hope Chris and Patrick will get Steve's table running, have a nice dinner and share their conclusions as to just what happened. |
Looking forward to the conclusion of the story.
Chris I thought you were a little ruff on poor old Patrick.
I do know however you 3 will have a good time together when you meet to resolve the issues. Only the very best in the business will come to your home to setup your table,
My highest praise. |
Oh, this simply MUST be settled by now. No? |
