Say it aint so--- Teres quality question

I'd like to know something too. How tall are your platters? Both installed & static height.

Joe

My .02.

OK, Once again, most of you here know what I am doing.

I agree with Patrick about the quality of the bearing, etc. I will also say that the quality of the acrylic platter is top notch. The only problem I can see with the acrylic platter is some VERY FINE scratches, which I doubt 99% of people out there would notice. If I thought it was a problem, I'd call Chris, and I'm sure he would take care of it.

If you have an issue with Teres (the company) woodwooking skills, try this: DO IT YOUR SELF! I am. Then you can find out just how hard it is to do properly. You can get it perfect, if you want, I know I can. But, a very big but, why spend the energy to make it absolutely perfect if it does not have to be? There are parameters that need to be met, but outside of that you just get ridiculous. I can build you one that is absolutely perfect in every aspect, but it will cost you 10-12k. And that's for just a wood one, no inlays, no bells and whistles, no veneer. End grain on the edges. Do you want to spend that? If you do, it will be perfect. Flat, level, no gaps, no cup. Wanna know something funny; it will not stay that way. Wood is affected by temperature, humidity, and other factors. IT MOVES. It's organic.

I consider myself a very accomplished woodworker. I do very high end work. For those who are willing to pay for it. I am very expensive. I can't imagine how Teres builds the table for the price they get for them. I am willing to bet that if you take a look (physically take a look) at a 300 series, the quality will be higher than the 200 series, which is higher than the 100 series. More money = higher quality, period.

BTW, I don't feel at all guilty about using exotics. The denser the better, and I am not in the least worried about ants, termites, fire, or any of that goofy crap.

When I get home tonight I'll check mine out. I only took it out of the plastic for about 15 min so my friends could ooh & aah it! I have to get it out to mount hopefully this weekend anyway. I'll let you know.

BTW, I'm pissed! I just saw a lead shot loaded platter here and it's sold. I thought I was paying better attention!!

Goofy crap was intended for the ants, termites etc. comment. Believe me, I do not consider conservation goofy. But, there is a substantial amount of wood out there already. The Cocobolo I am using is an "estate piece" that was harvested in the 1920's. The rest of the wood is old as well. I'm funny about that kind of stuff. My shop is set up for production work and I mostly use engineered wood products. Paul's shop, Period Furniture Restoration, where I'm building the TT, is a craftsmans shop of the highest order. We do not misuse/abuse the medium in which we work!!

I don't think in the Teres plinth (or any other) there is anything remotely resembling tolerences. Now, before I catch hell for this, listen. As long as the top and bottom surfaces are parallel to each other, nothing else matters!! Otherwise you could not level it. Think about it. For that matter, the top does not even have to be flat, as long as the bearing is exactly 90 degrees from horizontal. I've been experimenting with designs, and this is the ONLY requirement that is set in stone.

Basically, the same goes for the armboard. Level, and the right height. It really does not even have to be part of the plinth. As long as it is stable, solid, and non-resonant, you're ok.

Obviously, resonance is a major issue with all of the pieces, but lets leave that issue for another day.

Platters are a different story. The major requirement there is balance. If the weight is not balanced, it will not run true, and will not be able to keep a constant speed. Of course, this requires balance in all axises (axii?) also.

Now, I want to make one thing clear about my comments. I AM IN NO WAY A TURNTABLE EXPERT!! YET. I have done sh**loads of reserch on this subject. I intend to build custom tables for sale. I have a couple of design ideas that I think are really cool, and I also think I can compete with anything out there. My brother-in-law has doctorates in electrical engineering and physics, and as far as the electronics are concerned, he and both I think the Teres motor/controller are the cat's ass! He's also a lawyer, but I don't hold that against him since intelletual property law is his specialty!

One more thing. I think we should turn this thread into a forum for the design issues we have with turnatables. Maybe designs you would like to see. As I said in my last reply, I fully intend to become the next turntable manufacturer out there. I plan on starting out making 2 a month, and going from there. This obsession is starting to make me go right to Paul's shop in the morning, not to mine! We have been spending more time with design ideas lately than I have spent finishing my table. I gotta get this damn thing done!

Some design ideas/questions:

1. Teres motor/controller/bearing but direct drive? Psychic, you listening?

2. Alternative plinth materials?

3. Wood tonearms ala the old Grados

4. Oil/lead filled platters. I found a way to do it.

5. Just how crazy are we?

So, if you were going to have someone custom build you a table, what do you want to see? And, who is going to be the lucky one to review my new table serial #1? Does anybody think there is a better bearing than the Teres? Or their motor?

Preamp of the century my ass, let's see where this goes!!

Joe

You know, the lag time on these posts are killing me.

David, I got a little carried away there:

"I can build you one that is absolutely perfect in every aspect, but it will cost you 10-12k. And that's for just a wood one, no inlays, no bells and whistles, no veneer. End grain on the edges. Do you want to spend that?

No, I don't want to spend that, and to do it right should not cost anywhere near $10-12K WITH INLAYS. Oy. You have really got to be kidding on this one. But, yes, the proper pressing equipment in the laminating process and GRAIN MATCHING AND SELECTION TO ACHIVE PROPER GRAIN ORIENTATION is more costly than folks might imagine."

It was meant a little to be a little sarcastic, and I agree with your comment. I feel that absolute quality DOES NOT HAVE TO BE EXPENSIVE. And, I think we could combine a little marquetry on the top & sides, dress up the arm board.…

And that's what I am going to try and do: Make it "perfect" and keep down the cost. Who needs another 10k turntable? I’d be willing to do that on a commission basis, but production is another thing. 3-4k is a different story. Remember, the Teres motor/platter/bearing costs $1500. The time I have spent on mine is crazy. One cannot spend that kind of time on a project and expect it to be financially feasible.

BTW, I’m locking down my arm board from the top. One knob. Easy adjustment.

Joe

David,

I only wish I had the skills!!! We have an intern at the shop who is going to study further in Germany after she graduates from ECU. She wants to learn marquetry in a big way. I have a feeling she will be very, very good at it.

This base won't have any of the goodies on it, except for the veneer and the big piece of ebony inlaid on the top. I've wanted to do it, but it's taking a lot longer than I thought it would, and I want the damn thing running now! So, the next one will be the showpiece. I'll start with the platter, because I want to experience the difference. I'll have time to go to town on that one!

Joe

Patrick,

Mine is 2 3/4" YHM.

Joe

I see it got a little carried away here when I went off to work on my TT (BTW, new pics will be up Here). Give me a little time to get them up this morning.

Couple of points. But first, like everyone else, I have no affiliation or financial interest in any manufacturer save myself. If I stand to gain or lose anything it will be because I plan on trying to make a table of my own design using the Teres bearing & motor. I have absolutely no intention of bashing Teres and am nothing but a very satisfied customer.

Focusedfx:

Surely you want to give it some thought. This is not a small purchase. But there are a couple of things you need to think about. Why is everybody so happy with this turntable? There has to be a reason. Personally, I would not let the two, that’s right, only two, issues that have been raised here to dissuade me from buying it. Think of those of us who have dealt with Teres and are very satisfied. I heard he has something like 300 tables out there. Two problems is less than 1%. I don’t think that’s too shabby. If that was a car, it would lead the JD Power list forever. That’s my OPINION.

Patrick:
My Acrylic platter is flat, I would say well less that 1/64" deviation. I was going to put it on a surface plate and use a dial indicator, but that seemed to be a little ridiculous. I also have an answer for the arm board problem. Will email offline.

David:
Wood platters holding up over time. Well, I have given this one a lot of thought, and since I plan to make one soon, here's what I think. The Teres cocobolo platter SEEMS to be made of blocks, infused with west systems epoxy, then drilled for lead. I personally feel due to my experiences with wood, boats, and west systems products that this system SHOULD be able to stand the test of time. A long time. The only problem I would worry about is stress cracks during the machining process. With material the material differences, machining it using standard woodworking methods is probably not a good idea if you want to keep it true. But trying to find a more precision metal lathe that will swing 13" is a problem I worry about when I get there.

Psychic:
Wood can be machined to very high tolerances. It's all a matter of having the right tools and knowing how to use them. The problems that arise when trying to maintain precision are caused by the wide variations in hardness between epoxies and wood. This could be where metal working machinery gives an edge.

Doug:
I agree, there must be something to it if everyone prefers the wood platter. This has got to be something due to resonant properties and density. Denser is better. No brainer. If there is an even better material, I’ll find it. Been doing sh**loads of research on this.

Tom:
I was gonna see if I could drive over and listen to your TT, but, um, maybe in the spring! Seriously though, your situation is probably the most extreme real world test of any wood product. There is the potential to bring out the worst in the platter, and it sounds like there is no worst. This seems to lend credence to a west systems type manufacturing of the platter. This epoxy will lend stability that would otherwise be unattainable using conventional glues especially under these extreme circumstances.

I've said it before, but my experiences with Teres quality is limited to the bearing, motor, acrylic platter et al. I actually have all of these parts sitting in front of me at this moment, as I write. There IS NOT ONE PIECE that I am not impressed with. All of it is the very highest quality. Right down to the cool mylar belt. Nice!

So while I have the ability, I decided to save a few thousand dollars and get the finish I want. If I want to do a little Intarsia to dress it up, cool (do you know what I mean, David?). Although having Ramond's book far from makles me an expert on the process! So I cannot comment on the fit & finish of the finished Teres models. This thread started because of someone's review of the wood platter, and the concerns it raised. Fair enough, for this kind of money it should be damn good.

I still have my D35. After owning about 30 in my lifetime, I kept the Martin and a Takamine classical signed by Lee Ritenour. I keep them temp & humidity controlled!

Sayas,

You are mistaken and misinformed, FACT. But, you're right saying that other "machines" can do just as good a job. I finish sanded my plinth and armboard today. By hand. With a block. Just for shits & grins, I pulled out the dial indicator and a surface plate (I know a little ((actually a lot)) more about manufacturing and tolerances than I let on) and decided to check the parallel surfaces. There is less than .010" difference across the plinth, on both sides. On the arm board there is less than .005". That just goes to show you that it is very possible to get the same finish in wood as you can in metal, or anything else. I could probably do less than .002" in metal, but like I said before, what for?

Patrick,

I agree after a little reflection, kinda. As an acoustic guitar player for about 30 years, I can tell you that string instruments most definitely react to temp & humidity changes. Acoustical instruments more so. This has a lot to do with the thinness of the wood, scalloped bracing, and the tension of the strings. Tonewoods react to these variables.

Besides, violins, guitars, cellos and other much more delicate wooden items have survived the test of time. These turntables will not experience the forces of a speaker cabinet and they are made out of much less substantial materials. Father time will be the ultimate judge on this issue and this thread will be long gone before the results are in.

Look at any pre 1950 Martin and you will see the effects of aging on a guitar. While it is true that forces that affect these other instruments and speakers do not affect a TT, the sealing with epoxy goes a long way in preventing this.

But I do agree with you re the wood platter. Like I said before, if Tom's Teres shows no ill effects from his rather drastic and repeated temp & humidity changes, I don't think anyone else out there even needs to worry about it, period!

Well, now that that's over (I saw Bobo take the Tasmanian Devil, with a folding chair. Not sure if the chair was cocobolo or not:), I have to say that IMHO Cocobolo does not have the resonant properties that other tonewoods have. I think that is what makes it such a good choice for a turntable. While it is very dense, it is also very weak.

I don't know how it will hold up in a guitar, since I've never had one made from it. But I have a feeling it will crack to beat all hell after time. Funny, since it is a member of the Brazilian Rosewood family. Don't know why this may be so.

Ideas?

P.S Had the whole plinth done today. Then I deided I didn't like the way the veneer looked. So, tomorrow I am doing it over. I said what the hell, I have this much time in it, let's do it over so I'll have no regrets. The arm board and sub base are done, finished, steel wooled, and waxed, and they look spectacular. What's a couple more days?

I've stayed out too, because I figured it was up to Chris and Patrick (and the customer) now. But, as David said, I got the pics too, and I agree that in the pics I have, it looks like the board is too high, not leaving enough room for adjustment.

Now, I will say that when I installed mine (the first one, more like a "stock" 200 board) I could not get mine to adjust either. But, I found the problem, being I DID NOT FOLLOW THE DRAWINGS CHRIS SENT ME. I was all kind of pissed, because it happened at the same time this issue was unfolding. As soon as I realized where the problem was, I knew exactly how to fix it. And man, was I kicking myself in the ass.

When he sent the drawings, Chris stated in an email that they changed the height (down about 1//8") to make VTA adjustment easier. I just plain forgot, and built it to the old measurement. I was in the same boat as Patrick's customer. But, like I said, easy fix for me.

There is one thing I would like to point out that may have been overlooked altogether. When the platter settles, I do not think it settles to the same degree on every table. Mine seems to sit a little high, and others pics I have seen (objective here, pics only) SEEM to show the platter at varing heights above the plinth. Possibly because no two people are going to get the same amopunt of the same oil in the bearing. That 1/16" to 1/8" wil have a marked effect on VTA adjustment. Could this be the problem?

The cones are a different story. That's my idea alone. I tried it to compare sonics between identical arms and cartidges. And it does work, but requires a thinner board. So, I didn't put lead in it, just laminated it out of cocobolo. I really think it opens up the soundstage. The best thing about it other than the sonics is the fact that I have more adjustment possibilties than any other set-up I have seen.

That alone would alleviate Patrick's problem, and Chris, have you ever tried it? It would be interesting to see what you think about it. If any other Teres owner would like to try it, buy the cones and I'll make you an arm board gratis. I would for you too Chris but I figure you might wnat to whip up your own, if you decide to try it ;)

And again I agree with David, "And, as an aside, I must say that it is above and beyond the call on Mr. Brady’s part to personally fly out and get the table right." Great follow up for the owner of any company, and my hat's off to you, Chris!