Okay, Teres owners please take out a ruler and tell me how tall your armboards are. I'm getting conflicting information as to the height. Chris states in an email to me that 27 mm (1.06") is the right height and that sounds good based on my problems. The one supplied was over 41 mm (1.60") and another owner is under the impression that is the correct height. The only thing I can think of that would make both these two dimensions work is if the platter height had changed at some point. |
The bearing, motor and speed controller are top drawer. The plinth, platter and armboard design is simple which is a good thing. However, I noticed the same woodworking issues with this 265 plus a couple more. The armboard that was supplied was almost 42 mm tall as opposed to the specified 27 mm. This dimension is not posted on the Teres website as far as I could tell and only found this out after prolonged correspondence. Of course, this has caused a lot of stress trying to establish VTA. Hopefully this will be resolved soon. The armboard bolt that was supplied was much too short. The mating surfaces of the plinth/armboard exibited a lot of daylight which led me to check the top and bottom surfaces of the armboard and what I found was not good. These sufaces are not flat and is very visible with the naked eye in every plane, ie; length, wide and diagonal. The holes that are drilled for the tonearms are done with Forstner bits of inch increments. Since tonearms are fabricated in metric and Forstner bits are readily available in metric sizes I wonder why they don't use them. It would make fitting the VTA collar to the hole a much easier and cleaner job. The irregular wooden surfaces are the result of running short pieces through a planer plus sanding techniques. It's the nature of the process. The platter with this table is cupped from the outside toward the spindle by a considerable degree (perhaps 1/8") but seems to rotate true. I may have a slightly biased opinion about this type of manufacturing that is in disagreement with the manufacturer. I realize that you could take a coffee table and drill three holes in it and probably have a great table but I expected machined surfaces. That is what they say in their description of the platter although the pictured platter is acrylic. Once you get your hands on one of these you understand that there is very little that is critical dimensionally. The holes need to be perpendicular to the plinth. The armboard surfaces need to be parallel to the platter. Of course, the armboard needs to be close to the correct height. Cocobolo may be the best thing that ever happened in the analog world and I doubt that warpage or delamination will ever be an issue BUT I feel strongly that the surfaces should be machined in a mill. I'm not a happy camper and this isn't my table. I did recommend it though and feel very bad for that but I'm also confident that it will be fine in the end. For my money I would buy the bearing and motor/controller and build my own. Perhaps the worst part of this whole thing is writing these words. I hate to do it and I fear I may become very unpopular very quick. I do have photos to back up my claims. |
I posted an error and wish to correct this. The platter isn't cupped 1/8". It's more like 1/64" but the cup is irregular as I move a true straight edge around its surface. I'd like to know if the platter is supposed to be flat. Would someone with an acrylic platter please post a comparrison? |
Clueless,
This is aside from the bearing and motor/controller.
Regarding your question about required tolerances, the Teres design has few critical tolerances. There are three holes in the plinth that all need to be perfectly vertical. I don't know how critical the manufacturer considers the location of the holes in plan view are but I know that there is a wide margin of real world allowable tolerances. The platter and armboard need to be level with each other when assembled.
The armboard pivots to the required spindle to center of arm dimension and locks down with the pivot bolt. The armboard height needs to be within the VTA adjustment.
Do not take my concerns any further than questioning if woodworking techniques have replaced machining. The project is well thought out.
This is a personal opinion based on spending so much time analyizing this table. The top surface of the platter should be machined. I feel that the plinth should be machined at the armboard mating surface perpendicular to the bearing mounting hole. The armboard should be machined top and bottom to insure its level with the plane of the platter although the heights are different. The holes for the pivot and the tonearm mounting must be perpendicular to the mating surface on the plinth.
If I were making my own table I would provide a locking bolt for the armboard. It's too easy to bump the armboard and move it with just the pivot bolt alone. |
Doug,
Yeah, all I've heard so far is the relative potential of this table since VTA (SRA) is so critical, especially with the 901. I will let everyone know what my impression is once it's set up properly. I imagine it will meet my expectations or exceed them. Just for the record, if the armboard would have been the right height I would never have looked so closely at the surfaces of all the pieces. Keep in mind though that the Teres website says the platter is MACHINED to very close tolerances. Like 4yanx, I too would like to know exactly how the platter is made. If the parts are run through a planer and then sanded, that doesn't meet my definition of machined.
On a side note to everyone I would like to express my appreciation for the kind remarks. I feared that I would really be seen as a touble maker which I'm not. The trouble was with the armboard, not me. It took quit a bit of effort on my part to eliminate every other possible part as the culprit. Maybe I'm wrong but I haven't been able to find detailed drawings of the armboard or platter on the Teres website. If those would have been posted then I would have found out long ago that the armboard was about 1/2" too high. Chris said to me repeatedly that there must be something different about the Illustrious. In retrospect it should have been obvious to him when I had to buy a 2" Forstner bit to deepen the bottom hole 1/2" just to attach the nut to the arm. In this case, getting his attention was like pulling teeth and I've got to say this aspect really pissed me off. There is really no excuse for shipping the wrong bolt length since the potential of stripping the wooden threads goes way up when one is trying to secure the armboard to a point where a minor bump doesn't require you to re-setup the whole package. Drilling the wrong size hole for the VTA collars is inexcuseable also. Honestly, these issues may be minor in the scope of things but how would the Teres group like it if their tire dealer only had 3 of the correct size tires and mounted the fourth tire with whatever size they had on hand?
Once again, there aren't that many critical dimensions. Not many of the surfaces are critical either. Those that are should be held to the standards expressed on the Teres website. |
Tom,
I haven't detected an attack on Teres like you are insinuating. I don't think you are referring to me but for the record I recommended this table combo to my friend. I still own the same turntable I've had for well over twenty years. I am not affiliated with any audio manufacturer nor do I own stock in any audio companies. I'm not trying to use this situation for personal gain in any way. I know you already know these facts but provide them for the rest of the audience. Do you have any examples of an attack against Teres to share with us? |
Tom,
As stated earlier in this thread you ARE an Audiogon icon. Nobody that I know of has any ill will toward you. You and I have communicated via phone for hours on end about a variety of audio and non-audio subjects. You've taken the time to share your expertise through volumous emails with me. Your patience with the unenlightened far exceeds mine. It is my hope that my experience is a somewhat isolated affair but I do feel that Teres needs to take some measures beyond fixing my complaints. It's in their own self interests to do so. |
Okay, maybe I didn't state the obvious about wooden musical instruments. They do require periodic attention by a luthier. Having owned two Martins myself since 1969 I had them tweaked a total of three times. I'm guilty of over simplifying. I figured readers would have a grasp of the abuses a stringed instrument undergoes and the stresses required for it to play. None of these issues are faced by a turntable platter. Hey Zakes, I sold my 000-18 to an old employer about twelve years ago and the last time I asked it was still under his bed, unplayed. Occassionaly I long for that guitar but prefer the dreadnaught bodies. Like stereo gear it would be nice to have multiples. |
Update. I received an email from Chris and will be boxing the arm up to send to him. Hopefully the culprit item will be identified and replaced. I did post a clarification about the 1/8" (wrong) platter deviation as soon as I caught it. I apologize for the error but it was an honest one, caught by me and corrected in this thread in just a few minutes after the original post. Whenever this project is wrapped up I will post to this thread the details of the process and more importantly my overall impressions of the performance of all the components that are being used as they work together.
I communicated directly with OL and the retailer of the arm and the cartridge being used a couple of months ago after sending detailed photos. Early on I had recommended that the arm and the armboard be sent to Chris for his evaluation. I'm relieved we are at this point. As painful as this process was (posting to this thread) for everyone, I believe it will be beneficial to all in the long run. |
I don't share the concerns about humidity migrating into and out of the wooden pieces. Every one of the finished pieces is finished with an epoxy resin. That's a pretty substantial barrier. Besides, violins, guitars, cellos and other much more delicate wooden items have survived the test of time. These turntables will not experience the forces of a speaker cabinet and they are made out of much less substantial materials. Father time will be the ultimate judge on this issue and this thread will be long gone before the results are in. |
The arm, armboard, VTA collar and cartridge were all sent to Teres by January. I haven't heard anything from Teres although the owner has been contacted recently with an offer of Chris to come to Boise to set up the table. If the VTA was at its minimum (no further adjustment available) and the cartridge body was at level which is about 2° shy of optimum, I would like to know what the solution was/is. Curiously, it appears I'm being taken out of the loop. I'm beginning to believe I committed the ultimate sin by posting to a public forum problems that went unanswered through private communication. |
Chris,
I only wish that I could post the photographs that I have taken of the QC issues and the emails and photos forwarded to you. On THIS 265 with the VTA set at the minimum the cartridge body is, at best, level. If the VTA can be correctly adjusted on your trip to Boise then something else has been changed since January.
Look at it from my point of view. I recommended this combination to my friend based on a lot of research and communications with other Teres owners. I agreed to set this up as the owner didn't have any experience. Assembly of the parts is not difficult and the only nervousness I had was with handling the delicate arm and cartridge more times than was necessary. Initially, the arm wouldn't even mount because the bottom hole was too shallow. Yes, I chose to buy a $12 forstner bit and do this myself because the shipping/insurance to you exceeded the price of the bit. Then, I had to provide clearance for the VTA collar as the top hole was drilled for an arm without VTA adjustment. It's my understanding that you were informed at the time the order was placed which arm was to be mounted. After final mounting of the arm and listening while adjusting VTA my ears told me it needed to be lowered more even after minimum VTA adjustment was acheived. Those are the facts.
I also communicated with a few other members here who own either the cartrdige, arm, table or a combination of the above and forwarded them the same photos I sent you. Everyone that saw the cartridge body photos agreed that proper VTA had not been acheived.
Per your request I sent the armboard and VTA collar to Oregon which was where you said it was manufactured. I enclosed correspondence detailing my experiences to date and strongly suggested that the correct diameter holes and hole depths be drilled in the future as well as the QC issues I described above. Unkown to me, it was your father who manufactured the armboard and based on your last email to me he was offended and in turn, you were too.
Early on I offered to send to you the parts that are in your posession now. On this end the problems could have been the result of three different manufacturers, Teres, Origin Live or Shelter and I have no way of knowing. I talked to the supplier of the tonearm/cartridge and compared my minimum VTA settings with his proper setting. He provide me a measurement of tonearm to record clearance in the middle of a record. I wasn't even close to the setting he was using and again, there was no further adjustment.
Phone calls and emails to you went unanswered for which you apologized for in an email dated January 11, 2004, referring to a server problem. Interestingly enough, the unanswered emails prompted me to have another friend inquire about a new table before I finally heard from you and he received an immediate response. Perhaps there was a server problem on your end but unless it also controls your voice mail my phone calls were not responded to either.
I made one mistake in this thread and corrected it as soon as I read it online. I couldn't edit that post because someone else had already posted another comment.
I stand behind my remarks about the tolerances of the Cocobolo 265 that still sits in my music room, running out of VTA adjustment and your lack of communication during a much too long period of time. Negative post? Until today, in spite of the many Teres owners who have contributed to this thread, nobody accused me of making negative remarks. I posted today what I came to believe and you have confirmed it to the community.
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