Say it aint so--- Teres quality question

Oh, this simply MUST be settled by now. No?

Looking forward to the conclusion of the story.
Chris I thought you were a little ruff on poor old Patrick.
I do know however you 3 will have a good time together when you meet to resolve the issues. Only the very best in the business will come to your home to setup your table,
My highest praise.

Nice responses from everyone since this thread re-surfaced. It's great to see things progressing in a positive direction, presumably with a final resolution in sight. The following possible causes for Patrick's VTA problem all come to mind:

a) An air bubble was trapped during bearing assembly (due to oil on the bearing housing sides and/or the bearing shaft for example). This could prevent the bearing from seating fully. (Joe, putting too much oil in the bearing would not keep it from seating fully, the extra oil would just spill out the top. Trust me, I know!)

b) The platter was made too tall.

c) The dimension from platter top surface to the underside of the platter that rests on the bearing flange was made too thick. This would hold the platter up higher than spec.

d) The hole in the platter for the bearing spindle was too tight, preventing the platter from dropping onto the flange.

e) The armboard was too thick.

f) Gremlins.

I hope Chris and Patrick will get Steve's table running, have a nice dinner and share their conclusions as to just what happened.

I've stayed out too, because I figured it was up to Chris and Patrick (and the customer) now. But, as David said, I got the pics too, and I agree that in the pics I have, it looks like the board is too high, not leaving enough room for adjustment.

Now, I will say that when I installed mine (the first one, more like a "stock" 200 board) I could not get mine to adjust either. But, I found the problem, being I DID NOT FOLLOW THE DRAWINGS CHRIS SENT ME. I was all kind of pissed, because it happened at the same time this issue was unfolding. As soon as I realized where the problem was, I knew exactly how to fix it. And man, was I kicking myself in the ass.

When he sent the drawings, Chris stated in an email that they changed the height (down about 1//8") to make VTA adjustment easier. I just plain forgot, and built it to the old measurement. I was in the same boat as Patrick's customer. But, like I said, easy fix for me.

There is one thing I would like to point out that may have been overlooked altogether. When the platter settles, I do not think it settles to the same degree on every table. Mine seems to sit a little high, and others pics I have seen (objective here, pics only) SEEM to show the platter at varing heights above the plinth. Possibly because no two people are going to get the same amopunt of the same oil in the bearing. That 1/16" to 1/8" wil have a marked effect on VTA adjustment. Could this be the problem?

The cones are a different story. That's my idea alone. I tried it to compare sonics between identical arms and cartidges. And it does work, but requires a thinner board. So, I didn't put lead in it, just laminated it out of cocobolo. I really think it opens up the soundstage. The best thing about it other than the sonics is the fact that I have more adjustment possibilties than any other set-up I have seen.

That alone would alleviate Patrick's problem, and Chris, have you ever tried it? It would be interesting to see what you think about it. If any other Teres owner would like to try it, buy the cones and I'll make you an arm board gratis. I would for you too Chris but I figure you might wnat to whip up your own, if you decide to try it ;)

And again I agree with David, "And, as an aside, I must say that it is above and beyond the call on Mr. Brady’s part to personally fly out and get the table right." Great follow up for the owner of any company, and my hat's off to you, Chris!

4yanx, I also debated about posting earlier on this thread because there is no sense beating a dead horse.

I am at a loss to explain why Patrick and I got different results with the VTA adjustment range. The 265 dimensions for all of the 265 are the same. This is why I was frustrated with the process. All of my data said this should fit and yet Patrick's evidence didn't match mine.

I will not mind at all if Patrick joins us when I setup the table in Boise. And like Zaikesman said I hope it will dinner rather than the alley.

I debated on whether to post to this thread again because I suppose it is really none of my business. However, I will share what I have seen only because I don't want it to seem like Patrick is off his rocker, here, or anything. I was one of those to whom Patrick sent pictures of his friend's Teres setup. Patrick had inquired of me initially because I, too, owned an OL Illustrious and he had some questions about VTA adjustment. As it turned out, I had a similar situation with the Illustrious on a 'Not table (not being able to achieve an adequately low "ass-end" VTA setting). Actually, I could get just a hair under, but no more. My problem solved itself after I began using a Mat1 and its thickness allowed me to set VTA just right.

From the pictures that Patrick sent, it appears that Illustrious is as low as it can get, with the bottom of the pillar smack dead against the VTA collar and the VTA collar smack dead against the armboard. In this position, a picture of a lined index card shows that the headshell is just a bit lower than level (meaning up in the back). OTOH, Chris Brady says that it works fine on another 265 in his shop. This would seem to indicate that the 265 Chris is using is different than the 265 owned by Patrick’s friend. Is his plinth/platter overall thickness different? I dunno. I do know that looking at Patrick's pictures would give the impression that the only way to rectify the situation would be to lower the armboard in relation to the plinth/platter. But, I also see where Joe has his armboard up on cones whereas Patrick's friend does not. A significant difference? Again, I dunno. Again, I bring this up not to point the fickle of finger of fate but, rather, to explain that Patrick is not formulating bogus claims without what appears to be reasonable and logical evidence.

I sincerely hope that this gets solved to the satisfaction of everyone. If I were the friend I'd have been having seizures of withdrawl long ago! :-) I assume he has another table! Ha! And, as an aside, I must say that it is above and beyond the call on Mr. Brady’s part to personally fly out and get the table right. However, should it not be the owner’s decision with respect to who is in attendance at the “fixin”?

Having been in sales for many years with a very well run company, it seems that about once a year I get a "transaction from hell". It starts out with a problem and each time I fix it, it seems to get worse! The only solution is to "over-manage" the situation and wrestle it to the mat. Virtually everyone I know that's in business has the same experience and Chris is probably no exception.

Patrick, I think you'll realize that Teres reputation here is pretty solid and that your situation is likely an aberation- honey will probably work better than vinegar in these situations. And Chris, keep 'raslin'!

Good Luck!

...I don't imagine Patrick will be satisfied to stay away from his friend's house when Chris comes to do his thing - and well he shouldn't be. That'll be an interesting day - here's hoping that afterward, they can turn to the 'table's owner and say "We're taking you out to dinner", as opposed to "We're taking this out in the alley"...

I would have thought that this was settled a long time ago.

Chris,

I only wish that I could post the photographs that I have taken of the QC issues and the emails and photos forwarded to you. On THIS 265 with the VTA set at the minimum the cartridge body is, at best, level. If the VTA can be correctly adjusted on your trip to Boise then something else has been changed since January.

Look at it from my point of view. I recommended this combination to my friend based on a lot of research and communications with other Teres owners. I agreed to set this up as the owner didn't have any experience. Assembly of the parts is not difficult and the only nervousness I had was with handling the delicate arm and cartridge more times than was necessary. Initially, the arm wouldn't even mount because the bottom hole was too shallow. Yes, I chose to buy a $12 forstner bit and do this myself because the shipping/insurance to you exceeded the price of the bit. Then, I had to provide clearance for the VTA collar as the top hole was drilled for an arm without VTA adjustment. It's my understanding that you were informed at the time the order was placed which arm was to be mounted. After final mounting of the arm and listening while adjusting VTA my ears told me it needed to be lowered more even after minimum VTA adjustment was acheived. Those are the facts.

I also communicated with a few other members here who own either the cartrdige, arm, table or a combination of the above and forwarded them the same photos I sent you. Everyone that saw the cartridge body photos agreed that proper VTA had not been acheived.

Per your request I sent the armboard and VTA collar to Oregon which was where you said it was manufactured. I enclosed correspondence detailing my experiences to date and strongly suggested that the correct diameter holes and hole depths be drilled in the future as well as the QC issues I described above. Unkown to me, it was your father who manufactured the armboard and based on your last email to me he was offended and in turn, you were too.

Early on I offered to send to you the parts that are in your posession now. On this end the problems could have been the result of three different manufacturers, Teres, Origin Live or Shelter and I have no way of knowing. I talked to the supplier of the tonearm/cartridge and compared my minimum VTA settings with his proper setting. He provide me a measurement of tonearm to record clearance in the middle of a record. I wasn't even close to the setting he was using and again, there was no further adjustment.

Phone calls and emails to you went unanswered for which you apologized for in an email dated January 11, 2004, referring to a server problem. Interestingly enough, the unanswered emails prompted me to have another friend inquire about a new table before I finally heard from you and he received an immediate response. Perhaps there was a server problem on your end but unless it also controls your voice mail my phone calls were not responded to either.

I made one mistake in this thread and corrected it as soon as I read it online. I couldn't edit that post because someone else had already posted another comment.

I stand behind my remarks about the tolerances of the Cocobolo 265 that still sits in my music room, running out of VTA adjustment and your lack of communication during a much too long period of time. Negative post? Until today, in spite of the many Teres owners who have contributed to this thread, nobody accused me of making negative remarks. I posted today what I came to believe and you have confirmed it to the community.

Lugnut,

You correctly read the situation in that you are being taken out of the loop. But the reasons are only partially correct. Please look at this from my situation. A customer orders a turntable and after many months of frustrating and confusing communucation (with you, not the buyer) we are unable to resolve what should have been a very simple problem. Finally in frustration I ask the buyer to send me the arm, armboard and cartridge so that I can sort out the problem. When I get the parts I find that there is no problem. I have the arm, armboard and cartridge setup on a 265 in my room and it all fits perfect, with plenty of room to adjust the VTA. The only real problem was because OL changed their VTA adapter the mounting hole was slightly undersized. This was identified very early in the process and I offered to redrill the armboard, but you opted to take care of it yourself. So with or without your post I would have wanted you out of the loop. Can you blame me?

Of course your negative post did not help matters at all. As it turns out some of the claimed problems didn't exist and others were exaggerated. At the time I thought that your comments and representations were quite unfair. Now with a little more information I feel more free to say what I thought then.

I am committed to customer statisfaction. That's why I will be flying to Boise to setup Steve's turntable for him. But from your post it seems that you are still unhappy with me. This even though I have clearly gone above and beyond with resolving this problem for your friend.

Chris

The arm, armboard, VTA collar and cartridge were all sent to Teres by January. I haven't heard anything from Teres although the owner has been contacted recently with an offer of Chris to come to Boise to set up the table. If the VTA was at its minimum (no further adjustment available) and the cartridge body was at level which is about 2° shy of optimum, I would like to know what the solution was/is. Curiously, it appears I'm being taken out of the loop. I'm beginning to believe I committed the ultimate sin by posting to a public forum problems that went unanswered through private communication.

Well, now that that's over (I saw Bobo take the Tasmanian Devil, with a folding chair. Not sure if the chair was cocobolo or not:), I have to say that IMHO Cocobolo does not have the resonant properties that other tonewoods have. I think that is what makes it such a good choice for a turntable. While it is very dense, it is also very weak.

I don't know how it will hold up in a guitar, since I've never had one made from it. But I have a feeling it will crack to beat all hell after time. Funny, since it is a member of the Brazilian Rosewood family. Don't know why this may be so.

Ideas?

P.S Had the whole plinth done today. Then I deided I didn't like the way the veneer looked. So, tomorrow I am doing it over. I said what the hell, I have this much time in it, let's do it over so I'll have no regrets. The arm board and sub base are done, finished, steel wooled, and waxed, and they look spectacular. What's a couple more days?

When I was a kid I once saw Bobo Brazil give his 'rassler opponent a coco-butt.

Well, I have a fabulous two-LP set of Narcisco Yepes playing Bach's lute music. His theorbo-lute had cocobolo pegs. Does that count? :)

I'm envious of you musicians. When I sing in the shower the soap even runs away.

Mejames, I don't have a digital camera, but the guy that owns the guitar shop that I work after-hours at has one, and I'll try to get some pix from him. I won't be going over there till the weekend.

David, I like Cocobolo for guitars too. It sounds real good and looks great too. I prefer it to Indian Rosewood, and some people feel it is competitive with Brazilian. We're making a Cocobolo D-45 with a 2-piece back, that has a wide sapwood streak down the middle, and looks fantastic.

TWL have any pictures you could post? Thanks

Speaking of both cocobolo and guitars, my son recently acquired a Taylor 710LTD which has a cocobolo two-piece back. Sounds deeper in tone to his 414ce in Ovangkol and when opening the case, I get a wiff reminiscent of coffee! :-)

Currently building 2 D-41, 2 D-45, 2 D-18, and a Venetian double cutaway dreadnaught. The D-41's are maple of course, and we used some very nice quilted maple on one, and a superb feathercrotch maple on the other.Bindings are snakewood on these maple guitars,and flamed maple bindings on our dark wood guitars, as we don't use any plastic on our custom guitars. Full D-45 style abalone trim. The snakewood bindings and trim on the tail, neck heel, headstock, bridge, and back strip, really give a killer look. We are even using a snakewood fingerboard on the feathercrotch guitar. Fancy maple and snakewood is an awesome looking combination. The double cutaway is from exhibition grade Bubinga and bound with flamed maple. All have master-grade German spruce tops and our custom German Spruce modified X-bracing(similar to pre-war). Honduran mahogany kerfing and blocks, and Honduran mahogany one-piece neck. Alot of work, but they are great sounding and great looking instruments. This bracing allows medium strings without worrying too much about "bellying" the top.

Sorry to drift off topic, but I had correspond with the other guitar buffs.

Yeah, my only acoustic right now is a 70's Yamaha dreadnaught that belonged to an old girlfriend (yes, she gave it me, no, I didn't steal it, or even particularly want it, but it serves OK). I like the sound of a more narrow-waisted, rounded-bout guitar than a dreadnaught. I'd also love to get a really decent classical instrument, but hardly know where to start in that department...

I still have my D35. After owning about 30 in my lifetime, I kept the Martin and a Takamine classical signed by Lee Ritenour. I keep them temp & humidity controlled!

Okay, maybe I didn't state the obvious about wooden musical instruments. They do require periodic attention by a luthier. Having owned two Martins myself since 1969 I had them tweaked a total of three times. I'm guilty of over simplifying. I figured readers would have a grasp of the abuses a stringed instrument undergoes and the stresses required for it to play. None of these issues are faced by a turntable platter. Hey Zakes, I sold my 000-18 to an old employer about twelve years ago and the last time I asked it was still under his bed, unplayed. Occassionaly I long for that guitar but prefer the dreadnaught bodies. Like stereo gear it would be nice to have multiples.

Arrgh! You pulled me back out with the Martin reference. I once had the long term loan of a '39 0-18, which had originally belonged to the grandmother in a family close to ours. I received it when I was about 14 years old (began playing at 11), and the bridge had raised up due to its having been left unattended in its case for years with the strings tensioned. So my folks sent it off to Martin, and they did a super repair job. I played that thing like crazy for around 10 years - never played another guitar that 'talked' so responsively. Then, a relative in the family it had come from decided he wanted to play the guitar, so I had to give it up. Long story short, he moved to tropical Miami, and when I visited him a few years back, the Martin had been rendered completely unplayable by the climate, much worse than when I had gotten it. To me, it looked ruined and sounded like hell (couldn't be tuned at all, and barely fretted up the neck). Naturally, he had given up on trying to play years before. What a waste...it's an ambition of mine to one day own another (probably a 00 or 000 though).

Sayas,

You are mistaken and misinformed, FACT. But, you're right saying that other "machines" can do just as good a job. I finish sanded my plinth and armboard today. By hand. With a block. Just for shits & grins, I pulled out the dial indicator and a surface plate (I know a little ((actually a lot)) more about manufacturing and tolerances than I let on) and decided to check the parallel surfaces. There is less than .010" difference across the plinth, on both sides. On the arm board there is less than .005". That just goes to show you that it is very possible to get the same finish in wood as you can in metal, or anything else. I could probably do less than .002" in metal, but like I said before, what for?

Patrick,

I agree after a little reflection, kinda. As an acoustic guitar player for about 30 years, I can tell you that string instruments most definitely react to temp & humidity changes. Acoustical instruments more so. This has a lot to do with the thinness of the wood, scalloped bracing, and the tension of the strings. Tonewoods react to these variables.

Besides, violins, guitars, cellos and other much more delicate wooden items have survived the test of time. These turntables will not experience the forces of a speaker cabinet and they are made out of much less substantial materials. Father time will be the ultimate judge on this issue and this thread will be long gone before the results are in.

Look at any pre 1950 Martin and you will see the effects of aging on a guitar. While it is true that forces that affect these other instruments and speakers do not affect a TT, the sealing with epoxy goes a long way in preventing this.

But I do agree with you re the wood platter. Like I said before, if Tom's Teres shows no ill effects from his rather drastic and repeated temp & humidity changes, I don't think anyone else out there even needs to worry about it, period!

I don't share the concerns about humidity migrating into and out of the wooden pieces. Every one of the finished pieces is finished with an epoxy resin. That's a pretty substantial barrier. Besides, violins, guitars, cellos and other much more delicate wooden items have survived the test of time. These turntables will not experience the forces of a speaker cabinet and they are made out of much less substantial materials. Father time will be the ultimate judge on this issue and this thread will be long gone before the results are in.

Sayas,

Me thinks thou doest protest too much.

Consider yourself flammed as that seems to be all you are looking for.

I call BS Teres!

many other machines can do a job as well as a CNC machine, don't blame the equipment, look at the material! QC is QC either it is on or not...

good product but there are limitations to the medium

state the facts don't skate

A thank you to Chris for taking the time to show the level of customer support one can expect from Teres.

This cements my decision regarding my up and coming turntable purchase.

Customer service, honesty, support, and satisfaction are all key elements in any business (often times lacking in so many areas of our lives today.)

Chris' candid response and genuine involvement exhibit all of the above attributes in such a positive light that perhaps this will stand as a model for other manufacturers to follow.

Thank You!

Focusedfx

Guys, this is what it's all about. Honest conversation, concern & community.
Lurking through this thread, any analog enthusiast is bound to pick up some knowledge, I sure did.

As one happy to survive 8th grade Woodshop with a "B", and no interest in becoming a woodworking audiophile, the relative tolerances and expectations re: woodworking and vs. machining makes for some interesting reading. Not sure if the final result is more or less interest in owning any DIY-ish gear(Teres or other), but feeling more informed about it now.

As for the potential integrity issue, I'm pretty confident that this thread goes on to attest to the knowledge and sense of community of the posters that make the analog board the best part of Audiogon. Thanks!
Spencer aka sbank

Update. I received an email from Chris and will be boxing the arm up to send to him. Hopefully the culprit item will be identified and replaced. I did post a clarification about the 1/8" (wrong) platter deviation as soon as I caught it. I apologize for the error but it was an honest one, caught by me and corrected in this thread in just a few minutes after the original post. Whenever this project is wrapped up I will post to this thread the details of the process and more importantly my overall impressions of the performance of all the components that are being used as they work together.

I communicated directly with OL and the retailer of the arm and the cartridge being used a couple of months ago after sending detailed photos. Early on I had recommended that the arm and the armboard be sent to Chris for his evaluation. I'm relieved we are at this point. As painful as this process was (posting to this thread) for everyone, I believe it will be beneficial to all in the long run.

I just got back from CES and this is my first opportunity to respond to this thread.

First I should address the original question of the platter not being 100% true.. a very slight rise. I saw that comment
on audioasylum and plan to contact the poster about it. If it is a problem all depends on what he means by "very slight rise". If he is talking about a few thousandths then it is not a concern. If the deviation is much larger than that then there could be a problem with either the platter or how the platter is seated on the bearing, the latter being more likely.

Lugnut posted a number of concerns about the 265 that he has been setting up for a friend. There are a number of issues that perhaps I should address separately.

1) Armboard height - The delivered armboard is the correct height (1.6", 42mm) and was drilled correctly. I verified all of the pertinent dimensions with Mark Baker of Origin Live at CES. However, the arm (OL Illustrious) evidently does not fit. I will suggest the the buyer send the arm and armboard to me to sort out the problem.

2) The armboard bolt was too short - Lugnut is right about this one. We increased the height of the base and I mistakenly shipped a few tables with the wrong bolt. Yup, a QC problem but easily corrected.

3) The armboard and base surfaces are not completely flat -
Yes, Lugnut is correct. The wood surfaces on the base and armboard are not perfectly flat. There are a couple of reasons for this as some other posters have noted. These pieces are hand made with wood working equipment. They are
quite flat and true but do not have the degree of precision that you would get from a machine shop. We could machine these parts on CNC machines at considerably greater cost but because thy are constructed from wood they would
develop the minor irregularities that Lugnut noted. I have the utmost confidence that the current techniques we are using result in more than adequate precision to provide both proper alignment and good sound. If you want a table with perfectly flat surfaces then one constructed from aluminum or acrylic is the way to go. If one the other hand you are interested in good sound wood is a real winner. Contrary to what is being implied, I do not believe that this is a QC problem. However, I intend to take the information and look ways to make improvements. But don't look for us adding significant cost to Teres turntables in the quest for precision that does not yield a sonic benefit.

4) The platter surface is cupped 1/8" - Sorry but this is simply not true. Whatever degree of imprecision that may exist in that platter it would be impossible to have that much error without major cracks and splitting. While high precision is not justified for the base and armboard that is not the case for the platter. We go to great lengths to stabilize the wood in the platter and they are machined on CNC machines to close tolerances. I have one of the oldest wood platters in existence and it remains very flat and true. It is true that even with the best efforts wood will not be perfectly stable. It is inevitable the there will be very small deviations. However, this once again needs to be kept in proper perspective. Minor deviations are only important if they have an audible impact. The prototype wood platter that we threw together with no stabilization effort after a time became grossly out of round (about 3/32" radially). However, even in it's flawed state it still sounded dramaticly better than very precise acrylic.

Chris

if you don't mind voids under the vinyl and the echo from the stylus etch coming back into the playback i guess a non uniform platter or making the vinyl conform to the platter is OK!

think about it, for a moment, you are trying to isolate and subtract not add. same reason you get a higher tolerance (quiet) spindle bearing or higher tolerance (quiet) motor or higher tolerance (quiet) arm bearing... i could go on but i think everyone gets the drift here

bottom line engineering out the imperfections in the tt components makes a better performing system. so by noise elimination in the tt, just as we prefer lp's with no ticks and pops, is the best chance to deliver the finest musical performances.

don't argue this point just consider the the compromises you accept to have a wooden system

Enjoying my lurk immensely. If it's any consolation, Psychic and I are getting info from someone in a position to know that the platters of our beloved SL1200's (of which the platter is my least-beloved part, for its resonance) have lately begun arriving in a 'non-flat' condition (yeah, they don't cost what audiophile TT's do, and also use a compliant damping mat, but our sort always likes to brag on the 70's-era Nipponese mass-market quality angle :-) Well, I got inspired by Patrick and went down and took a 7" aluminum architectural scale to mine ('83 vintage), and you know what? Approx. 1/64" uniform deviation. I think it's dished, and I think they knew what they were doing.

Jphii: I've got all kinds of radical ideas for a TT design - just don't know how to implement any of them or how well they'd work. Send me a million bucks and I'll be happy to share. ;^)

FWIW: Personally, I don't really see *slight* deviations from perfect platter flatness as ever presenting an audible problem, and if a wood platter sounded best, I wouldn't be scared to get it. IMO though, if one isn't clamping and using a mat anyway, the deviations inherent in the record will make this whole question nothing more than an academic point of aesthetics. (Sorry Focusedfx, but that's based on absolutely no personal Teres experience whatsoever, which will be my reason for making like Tom and receding back into the 'woodwork' now...)

Truly an educational thread. Thanks, all!

Conclusion: Teres is not perfect. Maybe going forward, Chris will now measure and make sure his tables are more uniformly made.

Best,
George

my platter is about 2 5/8" tall. the gap between the wood base (is that the plinth?) and the platter is about 1/8", 6 3/8" high total off the shelf. (it sits in the bottom of a very large and heavy cherry tansu).

I'd like to know something too. How tall are your platters? Both installed & static height.

Joe

My armboard is about 1.6" high, and works fine with my expressimo rega arm / VTA collar (i have a 245)

Patrick,

Mine is 2 3/4" YHM.

Joe

David,

I only wish I had the skills!!! We have an intern at the shop who is going to study further in Germany after she graduates from ECU. She wants to learn marquetry in a big way. I have a feeling she will be very, very good at it.

This base won't have any of the goodies on it, except for the veneer and the big piece of ebony inlaid on the top. I've wanted to do it, but it's taking a lot longer than I thought it would, and I want the damn thing running now! So, the next one will be the showpiece. I'll start with the platter, because I want to experience the difference. I'll have time to go to town on that one!

Joe

Although this thread seems to have gotten a bit terse, I would like to say...

TWL, I highly value your input, and look forward to the continued sharing of your knowledge and wisdom in future threads. It is with your unselfish willingness to share both your time and experiences that I have learned a great deal with regard turntables-- I respect your decision to exit this thread.

Jphii, A huge thank you for taking the time to document your work, and provide everyone with photographs via your outstanding website. Exemplary woodworking, I can't wait to see the finished table. WOW!

Focusedfx

Okay, Teres owners please take out a ruler and tell me how tall your armboards are. I'm getting conflicting information as to the height. Chris states in an email to me that 27 mm (1.06") is the right height and that sounds good based on my problems. The one supplied was over 41 mm (1.60") and another owner is under the impression that is the correct height. The only thing I can think of that would make both these two dimensions work is if the platter height had changed at some point.

Joe, Intarsia for the Teres! Hmmm. I recall doing a lot of that at one time including a project for a woman who wanted clusters of grapes, vines, and leaves to spread out over the back stretcher of a rocking chair and then spill down the sides and out onto the arms. A toughy.

What are your plans for your wood table? Just on the base, or maybe musical notes round the platter! :-) One thought is that if you're going to use coco, SHARPEN those tools! :-)

I still have a great affinity for marquetry, though, and can think of any number of inlay patterns that would be absolutely stunning on an all-wood table.

Tom, apology accepted, both here and via e-mail. Perhaps I should have only e-mailed you but I felt I was being mentioned as having some vendetta against Teres, which is not the case, and I wanted others to know that. I feel that perhaps this was a case of someone having a bone to pick with what one individual says and being too PC to call them out individually.

It goes without saying that you have been a great help to many on this board and your recommendation of the Teres is not unfounded or unappreciated, nor was such even so much as alluded to in this thread by anyone. That was certainly not my point at all. My only point was that those who call it (or any product) into question do not necessarily have sinister motives. If one does, and another knows that, I think it is their duty to call them out specifically. Since I was the ONLY one to take issue with ANYTHING you said here, something as melodramatic as leaving the thread is clearly unwarranted, as others have said.

I will also add my apologies to the other posters here for wasting there time. No acrimony on my part, just trying to clear my reputation (with need or not).

Thanks for the nice comments. But I think it may be best for me to just stay out of this now. I'm sure you all can come to your own conclusions just fine.

Pat, I agree that it is in everyone's best interest for an audio manufacturer to have good QC and customer service.

Tom,

As stated earlier in this thread you ARE an Audiogon icon. Nobody that I know of has any ill will toward you. You and I have communicated via phone for hours on end about a variety of audio and non-audio subjects. You've taken the time to share your expertise through volumous emails with me. Your patience with the unenlightened far exceeds mine. It is my hope that my experience is a somewhat isolated affair but I do feel that Teres needs to take some measures beyond fixing my complaints. It's in their own self interests to do so.

I see it got a little carried away here when I went off to work on my TT (BTW, new pics will be up Here). Give me a little time to get them up this morning.

Couple of points. But first, like everyone else, I have no affiliation or financial interest in any manufacturer save myself. If I stand to gain or lose anything it will be because I plan on trying to make a table of my own design using the Teres bearing & motor. I have absolutely no intention of bashing Teres and am nothing but a very satisfied customer.

Focusedfx:

Surely you want to give it some thought. This is not a small purchase. But there are a couple of things you need to think about. Why is everybody so happy with this turntable? There has to be a reason. Personally, I would not let the two, that’s right, only two, issues that have been raised here to dissuade me from buying it. Think of those of us who have dealt with Teres and are very satisfied. I heard he has something like 300 tables out there. Two problems is less than 1%. I don’t think that’s too shabby. If that was a car, it would lead the JD Power list forever. That’s my OPINION.

Patrick:
My Acrylic platter is flat, I would say well less that 1/64" deviation. I was going to put it on a surface plate and use a dial indicator, but that seemed to be a little ridiculous. I also have an answer for the arm board problem. Will email offline.

David:
Wood platters holding up over time. Well, I have given this one a lot of thought, and since I plan to make one soon, here's what I think. The Teres cocobolo platter SEEMS to be made of blocks, infused with west systems epoxy, then drilled for lead. I personally feel due to my experiences with wood, boats, and west systems products that this system SHOULD be able to stand the test of time. A long time. The only problem I would worry about is stress cracks during the machining process. With material the material differences, machining it using standard woodworking methods is probably not a good idea if you want to keep it true. But trying to find a more precision metal lathe that will swing 13" is a problem I worry about when I get there.

Psychic:
Wood can be machined to very high tolerances. It's all a matter of having the right tools and knowing how to use them. The problems that arise when trying to maintain precision are caused by the wide variations in hardness between epoxies and wood. This could be where metal working machinery gives an edge.

Doug:
I agree, there must be something to it if everyone prefers the wood platter. This has got to be something due to resonant properties and density. Denser is better. No brainer. If there is an even better material, I’ll find it. Been doing sh**loads of research on this.

Tom:
I was gonna see if I could drive over and listen to your TT, but, um, maybe in the spring! Seriously though, your situation is probably the most extreme real world test of any wood product. There is the potential to bring out the worst in the platter, and it sounds like there is no worst. This seems to lend credence to a west systems type manufacturing of the platter. This epoxy will lend stability that would otherwise be unattainable using conventional glues especially under these extreme circumstances.

I've said it before, but my experiences with Teres quality is limited to the bearing, motor, acrylic platter et al. I actually have all of these parts sitting in front of me at this moment, as I write. There IS NOT ONE PIECE that I am not impressed with. All of it is the very highest quality. Right down to the cool mylar belt. Nice!

So while I have the ability, I decided to save a few thousand dollars and get the finish I want. If I want to do a little Intarsia to dress it up, cool (do you know what I mean, David?). Although having Ramond's book far from makles me an expert on the process! So I cannot comment on the fit & finish of the finished Teres models. This thread started because of someone's review of the wood platter, and the concerns it raised. Fair enough, for this kind of money it should be damn good.

>>I thought I was being helpful in the past by recommending what I thought was a good way to get great sound and save money.

You were.

>>Sorry if I offended anyone, or if anyone thinks I gave them a bum steer.

I don't think anybody thinks that and quite the contrary. And there is really no reason to leave the thread Tom as you probably have more hands-on experience than any of us. Maybe Patrick just had a poor experience with one table.As I said in the first post above. I've never seen any product with all perfect reviews.

Cheers
I remain,

David, sorry for not mentioning your name in the group with actual experience with the Teres tables. I was just responding specifically to Pat's post. I don't mean to create problems here, and perhaps it would just be better if I exit out of this thread before any other feelings get hurt.

I would only say to others reading these posts to do what you want. It is no skin off my back, whatever turntable anyone buys. I thought I was being helpful in the past by recommending what I thought was a good way to get great sound and save money. Sorry if I offended anyone, or if anyone thinks I gave them a bum steer.

OK, it would appear that only a few of us in this thread have said anything that could even be mildly interpreted as critical of a Teres table. Tom, since I have asked a question of you and you responded only by saying that you have no problems with Patrick’s questions, but DO have problems and suspicions of “others’” remarks, I can only conclude that I am included in the “other” group. My apologies if I misinterpret and, at the risk of taking issue with an Audiogon icon, I do take issue with your comments.

First, let me just say to everyone that I do not have affiliation with any table manufacturer of any kind and I really couldn’t care less what kind of table anyone else buys, provided they are happy and enjoy the music. I highly resent anyone implying otherwise. I have always bristled at those who misrepresent their motives on this board (I have actually called one or two on it myself) and value the integrity upon which my opinions are offered (correct or not). I will add that I do have a friend who owns a stereo shop but I didn’t even buy MY table or any of my components from him - only my cartridge. Besides, his sales are such that Teres sales are hardly a problem for him.

Tom, you have always taken great pains to disassociate yourself of involvement with Teres tables while recommending them and singing their praises at most all opportunities. You have also been fair in your treatment of them in this thread with respect to their need and responsibility to address quality issues. But, if you can do so with no affiliation or bias, why is it that someone who calls to fore possible problems or has design issue concerns is assumed to have ulterior motives? I can assure anyone that this is not the case in my situation regardless of ANYONE’S implication.

I have always questioned the long-term stability of a wooden platter. This is not some reckless “theory”, but is based on a long and thorough background in woodworking methods and wood characteristics. Anyone questioning my own background in the field can be provided umpteen references, including furniture makers in Amana, Iowa where some of the finest furniture and cabinets are produced by truly master craftsmen. And, that is not to say that my expertise trumps all others, only that I don't speak lightly on the topic.

I have personally examined four different Teres tables, three with wood platters, one with acrylic. I can see no evident design features in the wood platters that prove to me that my continued curiosity regarding long-term stability is unjustified, as others have noted. I have seen nothing on the Teres site nor provided by Chris within any threads that satisfy my skepticism, other than his personal assurances and literature as found on the Teres site. As such, I do not consider my views as “theories” of any lesser value than I do “theorized” claims made by Teres. Plus, I cannot afford to buy a platter and cut it open to see its innards. I can cannot prove that their design will not hold up over, say, ten years and neither can they. Time will tell, but having an honest curiosity and wanting to know more about a product’s design does not spell sinister intentions. I actually hope they last forever because I have two very good personal friends who own them, not to mention more than a few “internet friends”.

Further, the idea that someone cannot have a “theory” without having direct experience with the product is silly. A lot of folks have never been in the military but they can, and do, pose valid questions about the use of military hardware in Iraq. OK, maybe not an airtight analogy, but you get the picture. My point is that I do not say folks’ “theorizing” that the wood platter will hold up in the long-term is necessarily wrong or that they have self-serving motives for pumping the Teres design. I only expect equal treatment if I disagree.

Pat, I have no problem with any of your statements, since they come from a personal experience with the table. I simply take issue with others' statements which seem to stem from some sort of "theory" which is not borne out from actual use of the turntables under discussion. I can only conclude that there is some other reason for speculation like this, which doesn't come from experience with these units.

Regarding Black Angus' conclusions about "platter slightly off true", what does that mean? A few thou? Half an inch? What? And since it is probably a few thou, which didn't prompt him to worry about fixing it, and he is happy with the performance of the table, aren't some people trying to make something big out of this, when it seems to be a very minor issue in the eyes and ears of the reviewer Black Angus?

Personally, I find your experience to be much more troubling, in that you didn't get immediate attention to your legitimate problem with the armboard. That rests clearly on Chris' shoulders. Hopefully it was just a holiday related issue that won't happen again.