room size question.

Yes, most loudspeakers today need to be pulled out from the wall. 3 feet is a good starting place. A 12X12 room is big enough to get a great sound stage but you'll have to work to get the best set-up. 

Speakers are can definitely be room dependent. My rear ported KEF’s are 4’ from the front wall, from the drivers, and a bit less than 4’ from the side walls.  But if your speakers are front ported, you can have a lot more freedom to move them closer to the front wall.  Electronics, room size and acoustics also contribute a lot to what speakers will work in your room.

All the best.

@russ69 ​​@curiousjim 

speakers ( pbn m2 monitors ) are 3 ft from back wall.  65" apart and 22" from side wall.

listening chair is 65" from speakers.

2 subs, 1 each behind the speakers and close to back wall.     equipment rack, which is very low is between speakers.

GIK bass corner traps in corners behind speakers, 2 diffusors on stands at first reflection point and 2 acoustical panels behind listening chair .

what would you change or leave as is ?

i have imaging in the center, but that is about it.          

@bshaw  

according to your measurement your room is only 9 feet wide , not 12x12 .

What are your room measurements ?  

@vair68robert 

ok, so i am off by a 1 ft.       its 11 ft wide by 12 ft long.

@bshaw 

My room is also 12x12 but one size doesn’t fit all due the characteristics of the speaker so experimentation is key. In my situation, the front center of the speakers are 44” from the front wall and 36” from the side walls. So my speakers are approximately 6’ from each other and my sitting position. This resulted in a large soundstage both side to side and front to back. Just as important is the toe-in. Too much and you lose some of the soundstage and too little you lose some of the center imaging. 
 

Best wishes experimenting.

@bshaw 

OK  , measuring your speakers ( great looking ) from the center to the side wall at 36" , that would leave you with 62" center to center .  Are you measuring from the front wall to the rear of the speaker ? or to the speaker ? 

Have you tried the acoustical panels on the side walls and the diffusers on the back wall ?

@ronrags @vair68robert 

i measured from the back wall to the back of the speaker.     should i measure it from the center of the speaker or the front of the speaker to back wall ?

for the measurement for the side, i am doing from wall to just to the side of the speaker that would face the side wall.     should i measure to the center of the speaker instead ?

i have not tried the acoustical panels in the side walls and diffusors on the back wall.          the diffusors that i have, they cant be hung on the wall.

you can try toe-in, moving the speakers like New Record Day suggests, and a little play with the sweet spot. Worst case scenario is your speakers need more space, it’s the first time I hear about the brand (and I am just 15 miles from them). Probably great speakers.

I would unplug the subs first, and experiment with the monitors only. Seems like a lot of speakers for a small room

I agree with grisly by unplugging the subs first. It doesn’t matter whether you measure from the front or back but how it sounds to you. I would try using a good acoustic recording with a single voice. Experiment by moving the speakers forward and then back to see what sounds best. For example, move them say 6” forward and decide what sounds better. Then try somewhere in between until it sounds right to you. Then do the same side to side to possibly form an equilateral triangle from your sitting position. Lastly experiment with toe-in. Start with large increments, then small. 

Remember to take your time and it may take a several tries. If you become frustrated, stop and try later or another day.

@ronrags 

the system sounds fine and i have moved these speakers front , back, side to side and where they are now is probably the best place for them.        

my question is that is it possible to get a huge soundstage from a small room like jay and paul mention in the videos?      i get center imaging, but really no soundstage . 

i may try a speaker move just a little more forward...but only have so much room.

to me it sounds like you are expecting some magic soundstage that the recording may or may not have. Do you have a reference, what you are comparing it to, what you are missing? 

@grislybutter 

to me it sounds like you are expecting some magic soundstage that the recording may or may not have. Do you have a reference, what you are comparing it to, what you are missing? 

it happens with all the cd's , so its not just with one particular one.       center imagining is just fine....but as i have said before, i dont have the soundstage.

as far as comparing it to something ?       i get that equipment / room play a part in the soundstage, hence my question.       on a previous system i had years ago, that system was in the living room ,and of course different gear to what i have now...but the soundstage i had in the living room was huge.       

in watching a few recent jay audio vids and reading replies in the forums, i read / hear about the layers of the soundstage...and again, i get that equipment can / does play apart in this....but i think the room plays a huge part in this.   

Toe in has much to do with imaging. 

I am a midfi dummy, I don't know even know the proper difference between 3D and soundstage. I guess room has a lot to with it.

I only get a clear soundstage with the minority of my LPs. Hardly ever with CDs. Since I added a sub, I often get a more confusing sound (crossover chaos). 

But this is a great post, lot of comments to learn from for me. 

btw I have nothing against Jay but he seems to be a gear guy not a music first guy. I prefer NRD and Zero Fidelity, budget and solutions conscious dudes. I imagine Jay has a zillion dollar gear in every room in his house.  

@dalims4 

i checked out the audio physics site and when you scroll down to number 7 it says this :

We recommend that you listen to a record with dimensional information (e.g. Maria Callas in “Aida” or Nancy Sinatra on “Boots”, track no. 15) and that you start moving the speakers backwards and forwards until the sound impression is more or less in the centre.

which i have mentioned, i have that.        that is not the issue.     

the issue or my question, is that i read / hear about the overall sound when someone listens to the music is that the soundstage is huge and has layers......that is what i am not getting.

so again......i think that the size of the room plays a part in this. 

with a bigger room, you have more options of where speaker / sub placement , as well as equipment rack can go.         things are harder / limited in a smaller room.

A good starting point is if your tweeters are 65” apart, your ears should be 65” from the tweeters. Question, do you have your speakers aimed straight out or towed in? Another question, how far are your ears from the back wall? 

@dalims4 

 I'm in a 16.5 x 32' foot room using the front half for music.

which is a lot bigger than the room i have , which is 11 x 12.        

@curiousjim 

speakers are facing straight.   i did try toe in when i was setting things up a year ago in this room and tried it again just a little while ago.       didnt care to much for that.              

ears from back wall are maybe 6-8 inches

bshaw

I would suggest measuring from the center of the front of the speaker for side wall and listening distance , to the back of the speaker is ok for the front wall .

Try moving the speakers so that you have 36" from the side wall to the center of the speaker and see if you like the sound ,  you really don't have much room for moving away from the front wall , have you tried moving the speakers closer to the front wall with 30" being the closest before the bass becomes boomy and don't worry about having an equilateral triangle .  

After trying all this , maybe acoustic pannels ( diffusers-diffracters , not absorbers )

on the side walls .

you may also try the distance between your speakers , be 83% of the distance between you and the speakers.

Virtual system about your room could help.

GIK Acoustic gives free advices according to your room’s measurement

I don't want to assume what you are thinking, but so far:

you tried everything with speaker placement and seating position and volumes

room is treated

it's a decent size room

it should produce a soundstage

your layers are either not produced or something "eats" them.   

you think it's your room size. I think it's synergy and I assume it's the lack of, between the speakers and the room. (and I hope this will be the lamest, most useless comment you will get today)

I sympathize with OP’s frustration here, as I have at times experienced a similar confusion about what exactly a deep soundstage should sound like and wondering why I can’t get whatever that is. I hope I am not being overly reductive or patronizing when I suggest that some part of this kind of confusion may come from not having a baseline expectation to work from - and instead imagining what is probably an unrealistic representation of a staggeringly deep, almost surreal soundstage that extends dozens of feet beyond the speakers. After all, that seems to be what many fellow audiophiles have, or at least are able to describe having. I have never heard such a thing in my own room, though - which isn’t to say it’s impossible, but that my particular room/system/setup likely precludes achieving it, which would seem reasonable considering the compromises I’ve had to make. The somewhat confusing psychology of not being able to achieve the perfect soundstage sometimes leaves my brain suspecting that I have no soundstage at all, and that what I’m hearing is just a pleasant but flat centered image. That psychology can be so powerful that it makes even a perfectly reasonable soundstage seem dull. A third party observer who came over to listen might completely disagree and think it sounds great.

I think I have just invented the theory of general relativity of soundstaging.

@maxwave 

GIK Acoustic gives free advices according to your room’s measurement

which i said in the very beginning :

GIK bass corner traps in corners behind speakers, 2 diffusors on stands at first reflection point and 2 acoustical panels behind listening chair .

@grislybutter 

I think it's synergy and I assume it's the lack of, between the speakers and the room.

 You think maybe a different speaker is needed ?     

there are diffusors on the side walls and cant hang anything on either wall as the wall to the right, a different size would be needed as that wall isnt very big ( a panel would cover the light switch ) and on the opposite wall, there is a window.    

.   

bshaw

When a question is asked you receive a lot of good information to try  ,

I'll give you something exact to try or not , I've already suggested having the speaker 36" from the side wall leaving your speakers at 62" from center to center, the next suggestion is based on the listening angle that is equal to the angle of the speakers being 8' apart and the listening distance being 10' or 48-49 degrees , so if you can move your speakers and even your listening chair so you have 75" from speakers to ears ,  now measure from the center of your listening position 23" and aim the speakers to that point .  Toe-in even just 1/2" will make a big difference , I know you said you didn't like it but I have moved my speakers several hundred times ( it's free ! ) and for me this formula is the best , but it will all depend on how things sound when you move the speakers closer to the front wall .

Good Luck 

@bshaw

I agree , It must be frustating.

I have soundstage , depth , and height.

My room is 12 X 30 (it is opened to the dining room )

The walls are covered with absorbtion-diffuser and diffuser pannels.

( maybe too many )

The ceiling has some acoustic pannels as well.

May be , some speakers are better at soundstage-depth-height ??

My speakers (Audiovector R6 Arreté ) are slightly toed in  and tilted .

@bshaw What is the rest of your equipment? Some gear does soundstaging better than other gear. Though as everyone has stated it is mostly speaker positioning.

@maxwave 

My room is 12 X 30 (it is opened to the dining room )

which again, even though it opens to a dining room, this is still a lot bigger than a 11 x 12 room.        

@jond 

What is the rest of your equipment?    Though as everyone has stated it is mostly speaker positioning.

preamp : aric audio transcend

amp : Innersound esl300

cd player : ayre cx7

speakers : PBN m2 monitors

2 svs subs.

speakers are now 30" from back wall and 26" from side wall.      if you move them to far apart, then you lose imagining and just sounds like 2 speakers playing.  brought them closer together and it images just fine....but again, no soundstage. plenty of detail and vocals are clear, just missing that one thing.              i honestly think its the room .    if i had a few more feet either way, i think things would sound different / better ...and dont get me wrong, it sounds good....but just missing the one thing.

@bshaw

I would try a different speaker, if that’s a possibility. Something a little smaller.

From my experience: when I added a sub, it reduced my soundstage. I tried 5 different subs then to find one that worked.

"i honestly think its the room "

Can you change the room?

@grislybutter 

trying a different speaker is not an option ( lack of funds )

@vair68robert 

will try your suggestion tomorrow and might even pm you .

Have you tried positioning your speakers on the room diagonal?

I know all too well about lack of funds.... but you can do a Crutchfield or Amazon trial, for "free"

@jond it's a square :)

I think Audio Physics had an article on speaker placement on their website.  Not sure if it is still there.

Equipment is also a big factor for soundstage depth and layering but pulling speakers off the back wall can sure help!

 

I have an 11' x 11' room and big speakers.  I have seen differences in the Preamp and the soundstage.  Also the recording itself make a big difference.  I have bad vinyl and bad CD's. As well, the reverse.  The best I had was using bass traps in all corners, but my wife made me remove them because they were "Ugly".  I tried to pain them white, a very bad idea.  Buy white ones, they are said to yellow after a time, but still my recommendation.  

Got an Anthem STR Preamp that has ARC, (Room Correction), not set up yet, but my next attempt.  

Another question is, are the polarities of the cables all correct?  

@bigkidz 

pulling speakers off the back wall can sure help!

speakers have always been away from the wall and a few posts before yours, i had mentioned that the speakers are now 30" from the back wall.

@gregchick0 

The best I had was using bass traps in all corners, but my wife made me remove them because they were "Ugly".  I tried to pain them white, a very bad idea.  Buy white ones, they are said to yellow after a time, but still my recommendation.  

as mentioned in the beginning.....i have GIK acoustics and do have corner bass traps already.

after moving the speakers and adjusting the subs, had the wife listen last night to a few songs and she says that it sounds like the singer is right there, which again , is just the center imaging is there and there are times  you can hear / vision something behind the speaker, like a cymbal but that is it.     

Getting a big truthful soundstage is difficult in smaller rooms and where either the speakers or the listener (or both) is too near to the walls, resulting in reflections that break up the soundstage.

Padding out the walls too much is one answer but this leads to my reason for posting here.  Removing room reflections etches the image and makes it more like listening on headphones.

One answer to the small room problem is to migrate to headphones.

speakers are now 30" from back wall and 26" from side wall.      if you move them to far apart, then you lose imagining and just sounds like 2 speakers playing.  brought them closer together and it images just fine....but again, no soundstage. plenty of detail and vocals are clear, just missing that one thing.              

I am confused. You say "it images just fine...but again, no soundstage. Well, imaging IS soundstage. I think you have to define what you mean by imaging and what you mean by soundstage.

@bshaw 

As @jond mentioned you might try a corner set up. My 2 channel set up is a corner set up in a room not much bigger than yours. Excellent soundstage and image. Good luck! 

@bshaw my room is 12 X 18 but my speakers are along the long wall (yes, sacrilege), so i have a similar depth issue as you. My speakers are WAY out from the back wall nevertheless. (Over 4 feet). This is the result of lots and lots of experimentation. I've probably tried 75 different speaker/listening position combinations.

Don't be afraid to pull them way out. In fact, try this: start with them all the way out to almost your listening position, and then start moving them toward the back wall, 8 inches or so at a time. Keep them pointed forward (no toe in) the whole time. At some point, the soundstage will snap into place. Once you know they can produce a soundstage, then you can fiddle with toe-in. I do not subscribe to the view that toe-in should be used to generate a soundstage where your speakers otherwise cannot create one.

You may decide you want them closer to the back wall than the above ends up putting them, but you will know your outer limit this way. I did this after my speakers were already dialed in, as an experiment, and I ended up putting them back where I had originally put them, but the above process resulted in a placement within 3-4 inches of what I am convinced is their best spot. The soundstage is huge, wide, and tall.

@bshaw :

GIK bass corner traps in corners behind speakers, 2 diffusors on stands at first reflection point and 2 acoustical panels behind listening chair .

Try diffusers behind your listening chair (back wall), and the absorbers at first reflection points. Basically reverse what you have now.

I think you said "no toe-in", which is typically what is suggested when you want bigger soundstage (vs. focus), so you should be good there.

" start with them all the way out to almost your listening position, and then start moving them toward the back wall, 8 inches or so at a time"

exactly what New Record Day showed

@bshaw  I have not achieved a great soundstage without some toe-in. Try crossing just in front or just behind your ears. I'd also like to know if your tweeters are at ear level. Finally I would space out a little wider if you can. I like that you have a low rack, that helps. I'm not sure you listed your gear but if you are using, for example, a low level receiver, you can't get much out of something like that. You are on the right path, keep working. 

@jmh128

I am confused. You say "it images just fine...but again, no soundstage. Well, imaging IS soundstage. I think you have to define what you mean by imaging and what you mean by soundstage.

when i had a previous system at our other house, it was in a more open area, cathedral ceilings and that system had the center imaging, separation of instruments and many times it played well beyond the speakers. when listening to the music, and you hear this a lot....you get the sense of being there.  this is the part that i am missing. yes, i have the vocals in the center and maybe a cymbal will sound like its coming from further back, but that is it. i

@grislybutter

i will try to move the speakers out more and see what happens....but kinda limited as the speaker cables are only 8 ft.

@thyname

Try diffusers behind your listening chair (back wall), and the absorbers at first reflection points. Basically reverse what you have now.

I think you said "no toe-in", which is typically what is suggested when you want bigger soundstage (vs. focus), so you should be good there.

acoustical panels i can move, but these diffusors you cant hang on the wall.....so for that to happen , would have to order ones that can be.

i get that toe in is suggested, but it doesnt sound good that way and i did just a tiny bit yesterday ....and its possible that these speakers dont require toe in . when i had the system at the other house, those speakers ( magnepan 2.6qrs ) had no toe in and they sounded great.

@bshaw 

pm or call me if you want to discuss ,

I see that you moved the speakers from 36" to 30" from the front wall , Did you hear any improvement ?  

Questions , are you leveling your speakers , have you tried tube rolling and what CDs or songs do you use for evaluating ?

Rob

@vair68robert 

I see that you moved the speakers from 36" to 30" from the front wall , Did you hear any improvement ?  

not really.     sounds about the same as it did before i moved them.

had a spare set of tubes, but one tube went bad....so just down to the one pair.

leveling speakers ?      please explain .

cd's :   

Dire Straits   On Every Street         few good tracks on that cd

Mark Knopfler :   Sailing to Philadelphia 

Bonnie Raitt :  Longing in Their Hearts

Alice in Chains : MTV unplugged.

i may pm you....

"i will try to move the speakers out more and see what happens....but kinda limited as the speaker cables are only 8 ft."

starting positioning yourself right between the two speakers and slowly moving back is an option too. Not the same and your problem seems to persist regardless what you are trying that I also think you may as well train your ears more to notice the soundstage (with this setup - I don't doubt you have awesome hearing). That’s the main difference between audiophiles and regular folks, we have the same ears but we allow our brain to notice the nuances. Soundstage, after all, is an illusion or a contract between the source and your perception that you can imagine the space around you with the music’s components spread out.
if I go to a concert, I don’t hear a soundstage, most of the time I just try not to go deaf with my sensitive ears,