room size question.

@vair68robert 

ok, so i am off by a 1 ft.       its 11 ft wide by 12 ft long.

@russ69 ​​@curiousjim 

speakers ( pbn m2 monitors ) are 3 ft from back wall.  65" apart and 22" from side wall.

listening chair is 65" from speakers.

2 subs, 1 each behind the speakers and close to back wall.     equipment rack, which is very low is between speakers.

GIK bass corner traps in corners behind speakers, 2 diffusors on stands at first reflection point and 2 acoustical panels behind listening chair .

what would you change or leave as is ?

i have imaging in the center, but that is about it.          

@ronrags @vair68robert 

i measured from the back wall to the back of the speaker.     should i measure it from the center of the speaker or the front of the speaker to back wall ?

for the measurement for the side, i am doing from wall to just to the side of the speaker that would face the side wall.     should i measure to the center of the speaker instead ?

i have not tried the acoustical panels in the side walls and diffusors on the back wall.          the diffusors that i have, they cant be hung on the wall.

@ronrags 

the system sounds fine and i have moved these speakers front , back, side to side and where they are now is probably the best place for them.        

my question is that is it possible to get a huge soundstage from a small room like jay and paul mention in the videos?      i get center imaging, but really no soundstage . 

i may try a speaker move just a little more forward...but only have so much room.

@grislybutter 

to me it sounds like you are expecting some magic soundstage that the recording may or may not have. Do you have a reference, what you are comparing it to, what you are missing? 

it happens with all the cd's , so its not just with one particular one.       center imagining is just fine....but as i have said before, i dont have the soundstage.

as far as comparing it to something ?       i get that equipment / room play a part in the soundstage, hence my question.       on a previous system i had years ago, that system was in the living room ,and of course different gear to what i have now...but the soundstage i had in the living room was huge.       

in watching a few recent jay audio vids and reading replies in the forums, i read / hear about the layers of the soundstage...and again, i get that equipment can / does play apart in this....but i think the room plays a huge part in this.   

@dalims4 

i checked out the audio physics site and when you scroll down to number 7 it says this :

We recommend that you listen to a record with dimensional information (e.g. Maria Callas in “Aida” or Nancy Sinatra on “Boots”, track no. 15) and that you start moving the speakers backwards and forwards until the sound impression is more or less in the centre.

which i have mentioned, i have that.        that is not the issue.     

the issue or my question, is that i read / hear about the overall sound when someone listens to the music is that the soundstage is huge and has layers......that is what i am not getting.

so again......i think that the size of the room plays a part in this. 

with a bigger room, you have more options of where speaker / sub placement , as well as equipment rack can go.         things are harder / limited in a smaller room.

@dalims4 

 I'm in a 16.5 x 32' foot room using the front half for music.

which is a lot bigger than the room i have , which is 11 x 12.        

@curiousjim 

speakers are facing straight.   i did try toe in when i was setting things up a year ago in this room and tried it again just a little while ago.       didnt care to much for that.              

ears from back wall are maybe 6-8 inches

@grislybutter 

trying a different speaker is not an option ( lack of funds )

@vair68robert 

will try your suggestion tomorrow and might even pm you .

@maxwave 

GIK Acoustic gives free advices according to your room’s measurement

which i said in the very beginning :

GIK bass corner traps in corners behind speakers, 2 diffusors on stands at first reflection point and 2 acoustical panels behind listening chair .

@grislybutter 

I think it's synergy and I assume it's the lack of, between the speakers and the room.

 You think maybe a different speaker is needed ?     

there are diffusors on the side walls and cant hang anything on either wall as the wall to the right, a different size would be needed as that wall isnt very big ( a panel would cover the light switch ) and on the opposite wall, there is a window.    

.   

@maxwave 

My room is 12 X 30 (it is opened to the dining room )

which again, even though it opens to a dining room, this is still a lot bigger than a 11 x 12 room.        

@jond 

What is the rest of your equipment?    Though as everyone has stated it is mostly speaker positioning.

preamp : aric audio transcend

amp : Innersound esl300

cd player : ayre cx7

speakers : PBN m2 monitors

2 svs subs.

speakers are now 30" from back wall and 26" from side wall.      if you move them to far apart, then you lose imagining and just sounds like 2 speakers playing.  brought them closer together and it images just fine....but again, no soundstage. plenty of detail and vocals are clear, just missing that one thing.              i honestly think its the room .    if i had a few more feet either way, i think things would sound different / better ...and dont get me wrong, it sounds good....but just missing the one thing.

@bigkidz 

pulling speakers off the back wall can sure help!

speakers have always been away from the wall and a few posts before yours, i had mentioned that the speakers are now 30" from the back wall.

@gregchick0 

The best I had was using bass traps in all corners, but my wife made me remove them because they were "Ugly".  I tried to pain them white, a very bad idea.  Buy white ones, they are said to yellow after a time, but still my recommendation.  

as mentioned in the beginning.....i have GIK acoustics and do have corner bass traps already.

after moving the speakers and adjusting the subs, had the wife listen last night to a few songs and she says that it sounds like the singer is right there, which again , is just the center imaging is there and there are times  you can hear / vision something behind the speaker, like a cymbal but that is it.     

@vair68robert 

I see that you moved the speakers from 36" to 30" from the front wall , Did you hear any improvement ?  

not really.     sounds about the same as it did before i moved them.

had a spare set of tubes, but one tube went bad....so just down to the one pair.

leveling speakers ?      please explain .

cd's :   

Dire Straits   On Every Street         few good tracks on that cd

Mark Knopfler :   Sailing to Philadelphia 

Bonnie Raitt :  Longing in Their Hearts

Alice in Chains : MTV unplugged.

i may pm you....

@jmh128

I am confused. You say "it images just fine...but again, no soundstage. Well, imaging IS soundstage. I think you have to define what you mean by imaging and what you mean by soundstage.

when i had a previous system at our other house, it was in a more open area, cathedral ceilings and that system had the center imaging, separation of instruments and many times it played well beyond the speakers. when listening to the music, and you hear this a lot....you get the sense of being there.  this is the part that i am missing. yes, i have the vocals in the center and maybe a cymbal will sound like its coming from further back, but that is it. i

@grislybutter

i will try to move the speakers out more and see what happens....but kinda limited as the speaker cables are only 8 ft.

@thyname

Try diffusers behind your listening chair (back wall), and the absorbers at first reflection points. Basically reverse what you have now.

I think you said "no toe-in", which is typically what is suggested when you want bigger soundstage (vs. focus), so you should be good there.

acoustical panels i can move, but these diffusors you cant hang on the wall.....so for that to happen , would have to order ones that can be.

i get that toe in is suggested, but it doesnt sound good that way and i did just a tiny bit yesterday ....and its possible that these speakers dont require toe in . when i had the system at the other house, those speakers ( magnepan 2.6qrs ) had no toe in and they sounded great.

@russ69

I have not achieved a great soundstage without some toe-in. Try crossing just in front or just behind your ears. I’d also like to know if your tweeters are at ear level. Finally I would space out a little wider if you can. I like that you have a low rack, that helps. I’m not sure you listed your gear but if you are using, for example, a low level receiver, you can’t get much out of something like that. You are on the right path, keep working.

i get that toe in plays a part....but if toe in sounds terrible, which i have said it does, then why toe them in ?

if i go wider, then it just sounds like 2 speakers playing and have no center imagining at all.

i would say tweeters are at ear level.

i have listed my gear, but will list it again

preamp : aric audio transcend

amp : innersound esl 300

cd player : Ayre cx7

@highend64 

Do you have treatment for the first reflection on the side walls?

yes....that is where the diffusors are at.

@immatthewj 

i have center imagining.....but i am not getting anything more than that.    

@highend64 

in the beginning and somewhere in the middle, i have mentioned that the room is treated with GIK treatments.      there are a total of 4 bass traps in the corners, there are 2 standing diffusors and there are 2 acoutical panels behind the listening chair.

there is definitely no echo in this room.

@immatthewj 

my sound stage presents the illusion of being wider than the room is laterally and filling the space between my listening position & the rear wall and dead center imaging.. I hear plenty of height. 

that is what i dont have.     i have the center imaging, but what you just described is what i am missing.

@immatthewj 

So no matter the distance you put your speakers at, no happy medium?

i keep saying that the system sounds fine, i have vocals that image from the front.....but that is where it stops. 

if you go back and watch jays audio labs video and Paul from ps audio.....they both mention that there is a soundstage and there are layers behind the speakers that they also hear.              this is what i do not get.....and hence my post about can this be achieved in a smaller room ??       if you look at the size of both of those rooms in the videos, they are big rooms....a lot bigger than mine.     i think that a small room like mine has its limitations and this is going to be it. 

 keep the back wall clear of gear and obviously no gear between your speakers (everything off to one side). I think I would start out with keeping the rear wall clean as well (if it was me).

the equipment has to stay in between the speakers , there is no other option.    the stands i have are very low.....its basically a amp stand and then a stand that is two high that has the preamp on one and the cd player below that.

@rego 

good info, but those are not the speakers i have.

https://pbnaudio.com/personic-speakers/

i have the M2

@rlb61 

if you have read all my replies....i have GIK panels, i have the bass traps in the corner, i have the acoustical panels behind the listening chair and i have the stand up diffusors..

speakers are( i forget now as  i have moved them so many times,) but from the back wall to the rear of the speaker they are out at least 3 ft, maybe more....and 29" from the side walls.

if i go wo wide with them, then it sounds just like 2 speakers playing and i lose center imagining.         i have the triangle from speakers to listening chair.

@thyname

when i contacted GIK, they wanted pictures of the room so they could get an idea of what to recommend. if i was to put any kind of panel that they suggested on the side walls, it wouldnt be even as there is a window on one side and a panel would hit the light switch, so he suggested the diffusor that has a stand and can be moved around.

https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/2a-alpha-panel-diffusor-absorber/

mine is the black and white one, but its 2’ x 4’.

unless i get creative....these are not meant to be hung on a wall as there is no mounting hardware and would have to think of something.         not saying it couldnt be done.... 

i dont think moving 2 panels is going to change anything to be honest.

@thyname 

From my own experience, if one wants bigger soundstage in a small(ish) room, diffusers should be used on the back wall (and the front wall, but to a lesser extent), not absorbers. Even side walls, a combination absorber / diffusers may work better

interesting.            when i contaced GIK to place an order, they of course want pictures of the room to get an idea of what to suggest....and i forget his name, but he suggested the corner traps, diffusors on stands and absorbers behind the chair. 

if i had the option to hang the diffusors, and maybe i can come up with something so this can happen, just have to be creative, then i can swap the two around and see if it makes a difference..

@thyname 

mine didnt come with brackets as the idea was to have them on the stands as there was not enough room to hang them on the side walls and it wouldnt be even either....so went with the stand option.                             i can either get the brackets or i can just take it off of the panels and swap them around.

i have wondered though about placing something on the back wall i have....as all i have is a small curtain for the window and the bass corner traps that are stacked 2 high.      wonder if a panel(s)  on that blank space would do anything ?

@immatthewj 

I just did a reread & I read this by @grislybutter  , did you ever give this a try?

Also, in that previous listening space which you have alluded to, did you have any gear between the speakers?

i have not turned the subs off.           i guess my question is what would be the purpose of that ?

yes the gear is in between the speakers.      the stands are basically amp stands, so they are very low to the ground.

@armyslowrdr 

i will keep at it.      i have a few things i am going to try.

@immatthewj 

I understand that you currently have your gear between your speakers, my question was:  in that listening environment that you previously had your system in, was your gear between your speakers then?

equipment was in between the speakers at the other house  / system as well.    

biggest difference from there to here is the size of the room i had over there.