Room Correction Required

First, consider the AM Acoustics room mode simulator. It can help you find a place for your sub thats out of those room modes.

Please keep in mind that no room correction can help you fix a null by itself.

Also, consider maybe all you need is EQ, not room correction.  In that case Roon will help you just fine.

I’d go with the Lyngdorf for their room correction prowess, but I’d buy one used like this just in case it doesn’t do what you’re looking for so you can minimize losses if it comes to that.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/186195202553
 

Best of luck in finding a solution. 

Thanks for the info is your Lyngdorf opinion based on experience?

Also, consider maybe all you need is EQ, not room correction.  In that case Roon will help you just fine

If it weren’t for the turntable that would be correct 

I'm kind of wondering if the nulls you are experiencing are due to height. Do you still get the same results if the microphone is say 6" or 1' above or below but at the same listening position?

Personally I think the Trinnov Optimizer is the absolute best option out there, and they make a 2-channel Amethyst that has analog and digital for both input and output and fits your other criteria. It does support Roon. Dirac Live is also great and can be inserted in between your chain, but maybe won't be as good an option with your turntable in the mix.

Thanks for the info is your Lyngdorf opinion based on experience?

I got to hear TacT gear, which I think was Lyngdorf’s initial foray into audio/room correction, in both a home system and at a show and in both instances the performance was amazing.  I have to think the newer Lyngdorf gear is an improvement on that older tech.

I have the STR. Couldn't be more happier with it.

Have you  read this thread? Maybe an equalizer would really help.https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/equalizer-in-a-hi-fi-system

I have the STR. Couldn't be more happier with it.

The STR is first on my list for many reasons. I think ARC is a mature and tested system that allows curve modification. I think Anthem is a good company. I really don’t need a sub with the MA Silver 500 7g but if I wanted to put it in mix ARC allows a greater degree of bass management than the M33. The issue with the Lyngdorf is the low power output and the fact that I’m moving from the Naim Supernait 3- I’m concerned that the 1120 is a step backward in sound quality. Other than the issues with my room the Supernait sounds fantastic, better than had hoped. It drives my speakers with ease and great control. I’m spoiled in that regard.

Have you  read this thread? Maybe an equalizer would really help.https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/equalizer-in-a-hi-fi-system
 

Great idea! I’d be all over it if the Supernait had a balanced input but since it doesn’t I’d be limited to one source. Also it sort of negates the lower box count objective. I could conceivably bypass the XLR issue by making up an XLR to DIN cable set but do I really want to do that? I’m thinking not really.

Do you have Roon? You can do room correction with Roon  by just acquiring a microphone to measure and using Room Eq Wizard freeware. I just did it with one of my rooms with excellent results. One room down, 3 to go.

Haven’t heard the Arc stuff. I’m sure it’s probably pretty good.

Ive had the 2170 and now the 3400 Lyngdorf and they are really good! The amplifier sections sound super clean and very good but it’s when you apply the RC that it shows its value.

you could probably get a 3400 used if not loaded for well under 4k.

couple guys are asking dumb money for the 2170 that’s discontinued but should be in the same range as a new 1120 at least.

Do you have Roon? You can do room correction with Roon  by just acquiring a microphone to measure and using Room Eq Wizard freeware. I just did it with one of my rooms with excellent results. One room down, 3 to go.
 

I have Roon but it doesn’t help with the turntable

I haven’t seen a used 3400 for under 7000 in months

I see quite a few 3400’s in Europe for reasonable money but the are all from sites I don’t know and advertised in languages I don’t speak. All of that is a bit daunting.

Please do keep your ear to the ground for a used 3400 or a 2170.

I owned a Lyngdorf 2170 for 6 years and it is was fantastic. About 18 months ago I purchased a 3400 from a guy after he let me audition it in my room for about a week. How few 3400’s come up for sale is saying something positive, I think.

I think I saw the 7K one like you did. Yikes. $4500 might be a reasonable target for a very clean unit, loaded. I say might, because I coulda sworn I saw that the 3400’s MSRP was increased earlier this year. However, I recently saw something online that made me question that. I didn’t care enough to sort it out. Earlier this year I saw one for $4K but don’t recall if it was fully loaded.

I enjoy interacting with the 3400 over the 2170. The 1120 offers the same or possibly a better experience as it is a newer design and perhaps they made improvements.  I don’t know.  The diisplay is easier to see, remote does not require it be pointed at the amp.  The Lyngdorf integrateds are all pretty much powered dacs with room correction.  The newer models have a much more powerful digital engine with leads to better dac performance and quite possibly better room correction.  There’s a trim function(tone controls on steroids) that allows you to select a specific LF and HF Hz and then boost it or cut it by up to 12bd (I think it’s 12db—short of going into my room to check that for accuracy). The Lyngdorf app that allows you to create custom curves (which I’ve not done), control the volume and power on the unit from anywhere in the house and set up a sub or pair of subs. Your sub is not in use currently, but the built in X-O’s give you control like you wouldn’t believe. It also streams, but I’ve not tried that as I’m utterly thrilled with my dedicated streamer.

Now, onto the 1120. You have a dedicated dac now. Is that correct? And you are ok with a unit that does not stream.  You could install an 1120 that does it all in one box. Add a stereo amp of your choosing and you have a box-count of two. Finally, I know a dealer who carries Naim and Lyngdorf. He told me once that he drove Wilson Sabina X’s with an 1120 in a room full of customers (he does a vinyl nite) and they got along like a house on fire. His expression. He Loves loves the Nait 3. But also loves the 1120 and the latter sells like hot-cakes.

very best of luck

I have the STR Stack and have been really happy with it. The ARC stuff is very cool and can make a difference, but it's not going to help your 80hz problem. That's a placement or room treatment issue and I know that's a tough one for you. So ARC will make things sound better but not exactly what you're dealing with.

He Loves loves the Nait 3. But also loves the 1120 and the latter sells like hot-cakes.

I was on verge of pulling the trigger on the 1120 but I was concerned about driving my MA floor standers. Sensitivity is 90.5db so is would work theoretically but…..

The 3400 would have been my 1st choice but the prices are a bit high right now. Maybe in the future.

 

 

The ARC stuff is very cool and can make a difference, but it’s not going to help your 80hz problem. That’s a placement or room treatment issue and I know that’s a tough one for you. So ARC will make things sound better but not exactly what you’re dealing with.
The ARC stuff is very cool and can make a difference, but it’s not going to help your 80hz problem. That’s a placement or room treatment issue and I know that’s a tough one for you. So ARC will make things sound better but not exactly what you’re dealing with.

I guess I’ll find out, I ordered the STR Integrated. It should be here next week and the truth will be known. 🤞🏻

One of my rooms has a very similar significant drop-out at ~ 60hz. I was able to correct this quite well with Roon DSP and Room Eq Wizard freeware to create and apply a very aggressive and slightly customized convolution filter for overall room Correction.

I also then applied a 4db volume boost to bring overall SPL levels back close to original post-filtering.

The results are stunning! I have trouble bringing myself to stop listening which is always a good sign!

The caveat with using DSP to fix bass dropouts at certain frequencies this way is make sure your amp has headroom available beforehand so it is up to the task of delivering the corrected bass response without clipping. As a safeguard, I also added an additional gradual parametric roll off filter to the lowest octaves in Roon DSP adjusting that by ear for best results. End result was smoother response top to bottom with a gradual rolloff applied to the lowest octave mainly as a safeguard to help avoid clipping.

Of course anything one can do practically to avoid such bass nulls/drop outs physically in the first place is always a good thing to save having to make the amp work harder to compensate. But if that is not practical or effective first, DSP can help quite a bit.

Roon DSP won’t work with Vinyl or a TV input. I used it to handle my streaming input and it works well. I need a whole system solution however. I’m counting down for STR arrival.

For TV I just use a good quality soundbar.  
 

Regarding vinyl, I have lots of albums but don’t play them much anymore.  Roon and Qobuz has taken me over.  When I do play a record, I generally play it once and convert it to digital, add it to my library and stream it via Roon from there on. 
 

But yes DSP integrated into the hardware is a very flexible way to go for multiple sources beyond just digital audio streaming with Roon.  
 

@mitchellcp ,

I paid 4k shipped for fully loaded 3400 year and a half old (with receipt) less than 2 months ago. There was another one, at that time similarly priced. 

@mitchellcp Your description of the problem is a classic example of how standing waves cancel and reinforce bass in a room, depending on frequency.

You can fix the peaks with room correction but not the dips!!!

The reason you can't fix the dips is that the amplifier power is being cancelled at the null frequency. You could put 10,000 Watts into that cancellation and it would still be cancelled. So room correction won't work on its own!

You need to break up the standing waves. That is the way to fix this.

You break up standing waves by having subwoofers placed asymmetrically about the room. Since your main speakers already play bass, you really only need to add two subs to fix this. This kind of approach is known as a Distributed Bass Array, and causes bass to be evenly distributed about the room.

Normally you'd want the subs to not reproduce anything above 80Hz (in most rooms) so as to not attract attention to themselves.

At 80 Hz the waveform is 14 feet long. It takes the ear a few iterations of the waveform to know what the note is (it takes one iteration to know its there). So by the time you know what the bass note is, its bounced around the room several times. This means that bass is entirely reverberant.

So that also means that a mono signal can be used for bass in most rooms below 80Hz. This won't be true for really long rooms.

This fix will take care of about 95% of your problem- enough that you many not consider doing the remaining 5%. That 5% is what the DSP and bass traps can do; IOW they are maybe only good for about 2-3% each.

Put bluntly, room correction is a waste of time and money until you have the standing wave issue sorted out.

I agree with above. I need a system which will give me some good bass management as opposed to no management at all.

The Swarm sub array - or using different subs as described above - will work wonders. Everyone thinks of subs as 40hz and lower and pounding out bass like a concert but really having them cut off at 70 or 80hz and dialed in prudently will work really well. Good luck!

The STR Integrated has been in place for 24 hours now and I have some observations. First off, it’s big. It’s also black but not as black as the Supernait which may be the most absurdly black object I’ve ever seen. The STR speaker connections are on the correct sides, unlike the Naim, whose sole redeeming quality is highly engaging sound reproduction, which causes one to forget the weird  things about a Naim product.

As to the STR non-DSP/room corrected sound quality, I was prepared for a letdown. What I was not prepared for was the similarity between the STR and the Supernait 3. First is the transient attack which is excellent on both and one of the qualities I was worried about giving up. No worries on that score, the STR sounds nimble with percussion and outstanding with piano. The STR may best the Naim on sustains but since I don’t have them both here I can’t be sure, I certainly don’t feel like I lost anything in that regard. One thing the STR brings to the table is gobs of power and you can hear it.

All in all, in a non- corrected state, I can’t say I lost anything with the STR. I bought it for the room correction but even without that feature activated, for my equipment in my room, it’s a much better match. 
 

The 30-40hz peak and the 70 to 90hz null are still there so tomorrow is ARC day. I’ll update after I bumble through that.

The 30-40hz peak and the 70 to 90hz null are still there so tomorrow is ARC day. I’ll update after I bumble through that.

@mitchellcp Your choice of electronics won't change the null. The standing wave causing it has to be broken up and electronics can't do that. You could use bass traps but they would have to dynamically move about the room depending on the bass note frequency to be effective. That is why multiple subs is the only way to solve this problem.

I’m betting that since the mid bass null is not too severe, it will be bettered or cured. The null at 50hz is a solid black hole- I don’t expect any improvement there.

Easy. You will have to be a little patient as it has not been released yet, but the DEQX LS200 will be the ultimate integrated and it has everything including room control and subwoofer management. 

I’m betting that since the mid bass null is not too severe, it will be bettered or cured.

@mitchellcp The way room correction works is its an active EQ device that compares the incoming signal to what it hears happening in the room. This might be done with a test signal.

So at that point if there is a dip, the room correction simply boosts the signal at the frequency of the dip. The problem is that if the dip is caused by cancellation, you can put any amount of power into that cancellation and it will be cancelled. So the dip remains.

That is why you have to break up the standing waves before room correction can really work.

I’m absolutely pleased with the results of the STR Integrated using ARC. The first run immediately eliminated the 30-40hz peak (prior to correction it really sounded like a 14 year old had gotten at the subwoofer controls). Additionally, via the graphic display of the ARC system I discovered that the 80hz centered null was a product of the right speaker room interaction only. I never ran REW on the individual speakers, all of which is beside the point, because the corrected curve fixed it.

With the low end fixed I found the the high was flat and lacked the sparkling dynamics that had impressed me from the start. The Sterophile review mentioned the same effect so I borrowed the remedy from the same article, which was to limit the upper end of the correction curve to 500hz and presto! All the good and none of the bad. I’ll probably lower that some more.

I found you can edit the curves for different sources by saving and assigning different profiles. This is great because my TT via the Gold Note PH-10 can be a touch bass heavy while the output from the TV TOSLink is what you’d expect- not the first word in dynamics. All of these things can be adjusted on the fly and the results are great.

The next phase was to reintegrate the subwoofer into the system although I thought I could live happily without it. Mostly I was just curious about the effect. The effect is very good, the bass is tighter still. Double bass work in jazz just shines with realism.

I also found I can listen at lower volume levels and still get a great immersive listening experience.

Overall I’m really impressed. I’m easily able to ignore the hugeness of the STR integrated in exchange for its excellent sound quality. On a 1-10 scale I give it 20.