Hello and welcome, Pieter.
You will find the passion level very high on this analog vs. digital question.
I am fairly neutral on the question, and have watched the debates for a while.
My own judgment is that digital is now very good and certainly something to have in addition to vinyl if not instead of it.
Good DACs are key to good digital, and digital requires care and attention to set up properly. There is no "plug and play" that will yield optimal digital outcomes. I'll leave it there. |
|
It’s all good these days. Read up and take your pick. |
I had a similar experience myself many years ago. In my case the technology shock was first the huge improvements in wire, and second the even bigger shock that my old Technics SL-1700 turntable sounded better than any CD then on the market. Since then I am happy to say digital has improved so much and is improving so fast that it is entirely possible it will approach entry level turntable level in as little as 5 to 10 more years. That is something I never thought would happen and shows the progress being made in digital. The biggest advances in the last 20 years are in vibration control, including room acoustics, low bass, and speakers. It is now possible to have true state of the art bass for as little as $3k to $4k. The technology that makes this possible is the Distributed Bass Array. Four subs located randomly around the room produces more but smaller bass modes that results in incredibly smooth articulate and deep bass. You have to hear this on classical to believe it. Vibration control, springs are the new cones. Springs prevent components from vibrating the room and each other. This reduces ringing, removing a layer of hardness, and smearing, for greatly improved detail. The bargain spring, which is really incredibly good for the money, is Nobsound. These work great but are not damped and so leave a good deal of resonance that colors the sound. Townshend Pods and Podiums are springs with a small amount of damping that removes these resonances resulting in incredibly clean clear natural timbre. Not at all subtle, some consider them critical to a good system. Room acoustics, you can still do old school panels and traps. But there are now things like Synergistic HFT that improve clarity and imaging and make speakers disappear, way beyond anything you would ever imagine to look at these tiny little dots. ECT and PHT work similarly well. All this stuff works together. In speakers the great technological innovation of the last 20 years is Eric Alexander’s Tekton engineering of low stiction/low mass and the MTM array. The Tekton approach uses off the shelf drivers to achieve a level of performance as good or better than the bespoke drivers used in much more expensive speakers. I’ve been using all this stuff for some time now. They all seem to fall anywhere from unlikely to impossible, yet the fact is they all work so well that, well read the comments on my system page. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 People saying they feel a sense of envelopment, images you can reach out and touch, take away all the stuff I just mentioned and believe me they will not be gushing like that. This is where the performance is at. So much so that if you do all these little tweaks then you will not have to spend near as much on components to achieve incredible sound quality. Especially not for what you mentioned, " being able to hear the soundstage depth, lively pianos and guitars". You get the soundstage depth from tubes and turntables. You get the lively piano and guitars from Tekton MTM. You get this all with crazy good 3D depth that envelops you with DBA and all the rest. So now you are up to speed on the big developments of the last 20 years. If you really want to immerse yourself in it https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/townshend-audio-podiums-the-full-review https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vibration-control-and-the-townshend-audio-seismic-pods https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tekton-design-moab-2 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/a-diy-swarm-based-distributed-bass-array-for-sota-bass https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/a-diy-swarm-based-distributed-bass-array-for-sota-bass https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/a-diy-swarm-based-distributed-bass-array-for-sota-bass Being over there in the EU you should probably take a good look at audiohungary.com |
HI Pieter, All I can say it that audio has significantly changed for the better. I'm almost 5 years into it after being away for 20 years and I'm a lot closer now to what I was looking for than I've ever been. To me the most significant change is the availability of measuring microphones and easy to use correction software. https://darko.audio/2019/08/ten-ways-to-remove-the-room-with-eq/The above link is a brief overview Enjoy the ride |
@pieterkadijk- A lot has happened in audio during the 20 years you were "missing":
I don't think there is as much of a "versus" in analog and digital anymore- I'm still primarily vinyl based, but digital seems to have come a long way. I can't speak to streaming but just based on Internet boards like this one, it seems to be a popular way for people to feed their musical habit, and not only for background listening.
Vinyl playback- more tonearms, set up tools and wider variety of associated equipment (cartridges, cable, separate phono stages) than ever.
High-end tape playback has enjoyed a renaissance with 15 IPS two track and "audiophile" issues on tape at a price as well as a thriving underground for dubs.
Prices- have gone up significantly for whatever is declared the current state of the art, but there is quite a bit of beer budget gear available-- better than entry level sound quality, but without the tariff of the big league stuff. There's also a new generation of listeners--jazz seems to have become popular again (though it is still a niche) among listeners- some great releases on LP from labels like Tone Poet/Blue Note and a new series from Acoustic Sounds/Analogue Productions, among others, that includes not only the perennials or warhorses, but more offbeat stuff.
DIY-There is also a heathy DIY movement that reaches folks who are not especially technical in background offering upgrades and tweaks at low cost.
Ultrasonic record cleaning- has been in vogue for the last number of years, and as MillerCarbon mentioned above, lots of attention is paid to vibration control, from extremely sophisticated active devices to more basic, lower cost items that can enhance performance.
I think it is fair to say that audiophiles are still a small fraction of the music listening crowd, but the market is reaching people who might not spend the time in audio salons. Instead, lots of direct sales via Internet with home trial and return rights within a limited time window.
The state of the brick and mortar audio store is still somewhat precarious, as it was before Covid, but interestingly, with people stuck at home for more than a year, manufacturers and retailers of gear and music have done very well. Supply line shortages may have an impact for a while, though.
Welcome back! |
"...the good old days when I was enjoying music on audiophile equipment and being able to hear the soundstage depth, lively pianos and guitars..."
This is just how I looked at digital vs vinyl, through the first years of digital:
Vinyl = Filet Mignon and digital = hamburger.
I never owned a CDP until around 1991, when I bought a decent Denon unit.
My next move was a tubed California Audio Labs, Delta/Sigma II combo. Then an Alpha 96/24 upgrade, which were revelatory when combined with the improved digital recording methods, of those days. OH: and a 1.5m Kimber Orchid AES/EBU. Tried a .5m first and it proved unlistenable.
More of a good Ribeye, than hamburger.
The move to my BAT VK-D5, with some well-selected Siemens tubes; has me enjoying the Prime Rib of digital reproduction.
I can thoroughly enjoy either a good Filet or Prime Rib, any day of the week!
|
But I am interested in the current vinyl vs digital discussion (has digital/streaming earned its place compared to vinyl, does it hold its own) so I can start exploring in a good direction.
IMO, Digital vs analog has not really advanced since the early 2000's. Instead of CD players, now it is streaming that mostly represents digital. However, IMO, trying to stream your own library is quite difficult. Because of this, many choose to rent their music via Qubuz, etc. because their have an interface that works. For me, this is a deal breaker. I have no desire to spend $20 a month for music that I already have. The music sounds good when I get it to play but the CD often sounds better and the vinyl blows it outta the water. If you are going to try streaming your own library, I'd suggest a streamer which has its own hard drives (NAS). Otherwise there are too many pieces in the chain that have to communicate.
I'm old enough to have lived through a lot of format changes and it usually more about the Mfg's making $$$ from a new product, rather than a great sonic leap forward. Its usually about convenience. And streaming is very convenient. You don't even have to buy music, just rent theirs for $20 mo. Now. What will it be 5-10 yrs down the road? I remember CATV when it was new. It was cheap too.....and convenient. Now its $200 mo with 350 channels of pure crap to watch. And the wheel goes round & round. The more that things change, the more they stay the same. |
As someone who has actively avoided digital music for 32 years, my perception is that there have been changes in digital audio that have encouraged me to build a digital front end in the past year to both stream digital music as well as listen to local files. Streaming music is not only convenient, but my experience has been that there have also been improvements in the sound quality of digital music especially in the area of reducing digital harshness.
In terms of the quality of streaming services, I can recommend Qobuz as sounding the best with Primephonic (for classical) being second best. Third choice for me would be Spotify Premium. Tidal is the worst sounding streaming service in my opinion.
Feel free to send me a message if you want to know what I've learned in the past year about putting together a digital front end. I've found that getting digital to sound good can be as complex as getting a turntable to sound good. |
@whart as is the norm has a balanced more nuanced view of the world. EU builds some great gear in both analog and digital formats and probably leads in reference digital recordings , see 2L The Nordic sound for technical and musical artistry both. For hints about how far digital has come look to both Brinkman and Aesthetix. Both firms are wayyyyyy into analog yet both offer state of the art and highly involving DACs. Some of us own LP, Digital and high speed tape and can speak with an open mind and ear.
Enjoy your music, journey and newly rekindled love affair. |
as an aside, the digital reference should not be streaming nor in the rarest of cases a CD. It should be a bit perfect rip or resident file on an isolated audiophile grade server ( for example a NAIM Core a UK product ) w no moving parts. In many cases what we see are so called experts taking a pen knife to a gunfight….. |
and finally, 2L has a free download bench where you can explore same music in various digital formats and resolution. A real run thru those w competent DAC will provide you with a critical ear , maybe an open mind…. |
Thank you people, I'm checking out my topic just now and already seeing a wealth of info and dedication to help out. It would seem that I've come to the right place indeed.
I certainly need to check out vibration control (I still use cones) and the use of dedicated DAC's is new to me.
I emphasised the vinyl / digital because in my days it was vinyl first, CD second, then DAT. Apparently digital has seen a rise in quality which is exciting.
I'm also interested in amp development!
Based on talks I've had so far it seems that a decent amp is still key to a good setup. At this point I am asking myself why I ever had to sell the sweet Mark Levinson 331. I still see them used for 2.5 - 3k and picking one up is tempting because I am familiar with the magic it can bring. But something tells me that in 20 years time, I might get more bang for the buck trying new brands. Coda looks interesting when reading the reviews.
Also: I am not sure if I want to go the pre / power amp route again, I'm hoping I can get an integrated amp in 2021 that performs even better and offer some remote control convenience on the side.
Streamers, even the musical ones, seem to come at a great variety of price levels.
Bottom line is I seem to have forgotten (for a bit) how every audio store appears to have their own favourite brands and models so if you do broad research and visit multiple stores (and forums!) you get a wide range of recommendations. I'm 51 yearl old and whatever I'm getting now will probably serve me a life time. I'm not the kind of person to continuously keep pursuing the audionirvana year in year out, selling and buying new stuff.
Based on the Thorens TT and the Triangle speakers (that I both will never sell) audio gear can indeed serve a lifetime and beyond.
I am already reading many topic here on the forum. Can't wait to start my first listening session at the first audio store. I'll bring my speakers and this will surely fill some of the blanks I'm having at this point.
thanks to all! Glad to have joined.
Pieter |
"Since then I am happy to say digital has improved so much and is improving so fast that it is entirely possible it will approach entry level turntable level in as little as 5 to 10 more years. That is something I never thought would happen and shows the progress being made in digital"
Miller Carbon; you are quite the comedian!
|
Integrated amp technology has come a long way in recent years. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. |
Pieter, I think one thing you will find out real fast, the last 20 years have not been kind to Mark Levinson. The 331 will probably seem flat, dry and sterile compared to a much less expensive (and powerful) tube integrated. Here in the US I am buying Raven Audio but were I over there I would be seriously looking into audiohungary.com they seem to have a couple highly regarded tube integrated amps, with maybe even a good built-in phono stage. That would be the high value way to go. Remember the importance of vibration control means putting all your money into components is leaving performance on the table. The more components the more Pods, interconnects, and power cords. These things really add up and account for why it is almost always much better to go integrated than separates.
|
Hi Pieter. Welcome back.
In short I think vinyl can still trounce digital sound wise, but cost wise an analogue front end is exponentially more costly than digital.
A $500 streamer can produce surprisingly good sound from a source such as Tidal, and provide you with a music selection of tens of thousands of titles. I spent more than 20 times that on an analogue front end, and it wasn’t anything special.
Your dollar goes much much further in the digital world. |
Thanks! Good news and a bit of bad news.
The GOOD:
Today I did my first serious listening in 20 years time. I took delivery of the MoFi studiophono, not expecting any revolutionary results, just marginal improvement, because during all these years (after selling my CD and amp in 2002) I have been using a low class Marantz SR-5500 receiver, retail around $400 at the time. But I was wrong!
My current set:
- Thorens TD126mkIII with Linn K9 cart
- DAP Pre-101 phono preamp (list price €33, bought last month just to check if the TT was still good)
- MoFi StudioPhono: new and still in return window
- Marantz SR-5500 receiver, Video amp off for maximum quality
- FiiO X5 mkI music player, featuring Digital Out and Analog Out mini jacks
- Triangle Meridien speakers, list price in 1985 around 4000 dutch guilders, equalling around $2000
I played an old Dire Straits album, especially the song "Water of love", which I have on record and as a digital source (the X5). I used the digital out jack on the FiiO, activating the DAC in the Marantz.
Record
Mark Knopfler’s guitar really opened up with the MoFi. It seemed to take a good 15 minutes to come to life after powering up, but then it was very sweet. I heard many sounds in that track that I had never heard before.
Digital
The X5 on the other hand seemed to want to push all music out through a small hole. Many details came through but the instruments appeared to be in one flat layer. This is most likely the Marantz internal DAC’s fault, which is reportedly pretty bad.
Nevertheless, I did taste a tip of real sound nirvana when listening to the TT. After that I reconnected the €33 DAP Pre-101, and had a good laugh: the MoFi really is worth its weight in gold.
The BAD
My tinnitus ear condition (a solid 10kHz tone in my head all day) is affected by this listening session. When I finished, that tone became a lot stronger, especially 15 minutes after. Then it slowly faded back and now two hours later it’s back to the usual tone level. Scary.
Wrap up
Vinyl won today. Convincingly. I sensed a tip of audiophile bliss, which I had not expected and it made me very happy. I’m hungry to see what a decent amp, DAC and streamer can do. But first, I need to do some good thinking about my ears before going nuts on new stuff (and yes - springs and all that good stuff).
Thanks,
Pieter |
Hello all, Finished a new listening session today and I’m keeping the MoFi. I totally didn’t expect to be able to separate good vinyl press releases from bad ones, even on my sub par amp. It is dawning on me though that I probably won’t be investing big in vinyl audio sources anymore, because unlike 20 years ago, it is so easy to explore new music without having to buy records or CS's: we have Apple Music so we can explore most any music we want. I am keeping the MoFi, if only just for the hell of it, but I will be looking into getting a digital setup that will be able to convince me, even on my current amp / speaker setup. Ideally, it should be able to play Apple Music in reasonable quality so i can listen to new music in a satisfactory manner and then decide if I want to buy that music in a higher quality sound carrier such as a record or a hi res audio file. The challenging part with buying new vinyl is I have no clue how to sniff for a "good recording" vs. average or bad.
Anyway, the good about this approach (I think) is I get to keep my Marantz receiver for now, add a streaming music player that is able to raise the bar of digital to a level above what my speakers can reproduce - even with a more expensive tube amp - and start playing music. Then if this old but new found hobby turns out to last, and a year on I find myself still doing real listening sessions, I will finally replace the Marantz. I am contemplating on spending around €1000-€1500 for the streamer and anywhere between €4000-€8000 for the amp. Obviously I will come here to learn about all of the accessories that can squeeze every drop of quality out of my components.
Best regards, Pieter |
Welcome back and there is a lot of great gear out there, no matter your preference in topology or class.
Opinions are well just that. Audition and make a choice for your self. Do not follow the herd. |
you are on the way, enjoy ! |
Cool story!
I remember pulling out some of my LPs’ a while back, and some young cousins were over, they said “Wow, Mr Arcticdeth, how big were your CD players?” Gave me a out loud laugh!
I said they were records, I showed them my cassette collection, my 8-track box, and the 2 rare reel to reel music.
They were shocked at the reel to reel ones,…..how do you play those, as my Father dumped the nice TEAC, reel to reel back in the mid 80s’ when he had their wedding transferred to vhs, he pitched the reel player.
By the time I realized what he had, I was “NOOOOOOO”
still have them on reel to reel.
Janice Joplin and the holding company, and a Jimi Hendrix reel to reel 🎵.
I still miis the 8track switchover, from 1, 2, 3, and 4
PITB, yes, lots memories w 8 tracks and cassettes, LPs’
records the most pain in the butt, swapping sides, as none of my players ever had auto-return. Manual only. If you pass out, wake up to a runout repeat.
Looked at the add on auto return thingy as mentioned to me, price, and so on, easier to just manual the records, don’t pass out as much these days, so the manual think is fine.
I like it better when the album is done, and I personally put the LP in the rice paper sleeve, then into the jacket with the sealed Mylar Japanese outer bag.
|
Thanks folks! @ Mr Arcticdeth: you didn't show them your Philips Video Laser Player (1980's I think): those were big CD's LOL.
When I told my kid the price of the MoFi StudioPhono (€329 here in NL) she gazed at me and questioned why I would even consider buying that as I already have Apple Music which has already been paid for, that Apple Music has 10s of 1000s of tracks whereas my record collection consists of just 50 pieces, and spending over 300 is outrageous.
I decided to hold off telling her about the cost of the streamer and amp I am planning to add... |
@pieterkadijk
Hopefully it will turn into a learning experience for your daughter when she hears what music can really sound like!
|
I was a diehard vinyl guy for many years. After my young daughter and several of her friends destroyed three Benz cartridges in the span of 7 months I decided I had to make a change. After several months of study I decided on a PSAudio Direct Stream. It was a scary idea, but I couldn't enjoy my vinyl without the numbers as to actual cost per side running through my head whenever I dropped the tone arm.
I sold everything I had but a set of quicksilver mono blocks. This included a full function tube preamp, step up transformer, VPI Classic TT and whatever.
First I purchased the DS Jr. and at first it sounded awful, but after 750 hours or more running 24 hrs a day it changed dramatically, but not perfect.
I purchased an AR pre (can't remember which one) but there was an issue with a ground loop that apparently was caused by the Jr.'s output. I returned both the pre and the DS Jr. and PSAudio gave me a super deal on a DS Sr. To this I added a Quicksilver 12AT7 pre and again it sounded awful for a very long time, but once again it bloomed into a sound I found almost indistinguishable from vinyl regardless of what anyone says. 128DSD output sounds like vinyl. PSAudio's firmware release "sunlight" sealed the deal along with me removing the Bridge from the DS Sr. which allows you to stream straight to the DS Sr. and this improved the sound to its final step. It sounds like vinyl without any of the hassles.
I bought a 2012 mac-mini and turned it into a NAS. Now I research records with Qobuz and purchase DSD files online and I am very pleased. Not saying you have to leave vinyl, but you could if you wanted to, provided you are very patient.
The DS MKII was released a bit ago and the DS Sr. is going for $3,000 straight from PSAudio.
Just my 5 cents.
TD
|
pieter
i will join the chorus of voices welcoming you back to this lovely passion of musical enjoyment
also i will add a word of thanks for your posting here to start this lovely discussion, which, thankfully, has stayed remarkably free of the degradation that so many other less focused threads erode into
cheers, i do hope you are enjoying the wonders of what streamed music allows for us in this current time... it is indeed a wonderful thing
|
