I have an airy3 that is about 5 years old. Zyx does not have a retip, you get a new cartridge for a discount. Has anyone had a zyx retipped and how did you make out?
To tooblue, You are lucky enough to get 2000 hours on your zyx. My airy 3 suspension at less than 1000 hours was destroyed and on my French forum 6 members got reliability problem with zyx, so for my next cartridge I have bought from another company. I was very pleased with the sound but buying something not very reliable and then giving a big amount of money to get a new one, not for me. I have better buy a model which can easily been retipped for cheap as I listen a lot.
I just checked the first page of this thread, i had to re-read it earlier, because no one can explain better than J.Carr who is a cartridge designer himself. An this is what he said:
To retip a cartridge that was originally equipped with a stylus made by one manufacturer with one made by a different manufacturer is like rebuilding a Porsche engine with Jaguar pistons and crankshaft - the components used for rebuilding may be of high quality, but the design philosophy is rather different from the original.
Still, as one poster wrote above, changing only the stylus will alter the sound less than if the cantilever material is changed. When a cartridge is designed, the designer will consider the moving mass (sum of the stylus, cantilever and coils), the resonant character of the cantilever, and the (sonic) propagation velocity of the cantilever (affected by the cantilever's mass and rigidity), then choose the suspension and dampers accordingly. If you change the cantilever material, you are effectively throwing the original designer's calculations away.
This is definitely my point of view and everyone is free to do whatever, i just don’t understand why anyone should buy $7000 cartridge to end up with SoundSmith rebuild which is no longer "ZYX sound". But it seems like this is the end of the road for all your cartridges.
One day you should try SoundSmith cartridges if you like his work so much. Peter Ledermann claimed that his MI are better than any MC in his lection at RMAF, 2018
If you think there is no difference and designers like Nakatsuka-San wasting his time to make something unique cantilever which can be replaced by SoundSmith cantilever/stylus then i definitely can’t add anything in conversation.
I enjoyed almost every cartridge until i found a better cartridge, without direct comparison between the carts it would be impossible.
I have no interest in ZYX anymore (owned two of them), but i have a better cartridges now, they are all originals, just because i like to hear what a cartridge designer created.
Recently purchased Miyabi cartridge to fill my MC collection. I think it’s something unique.
Any cartridge dramatically lose its value if it was refurbished by a third-party vendor. I decided not to bother with my broken Zyx Premium 4D and start searching for cheaper and better cartridges instead. I am so happy about my decision.
But anyway, if you like what you’re hearing then it’s fine (for you).
@chakster, no I do not intend to buy another, I have my Universe back and am very satisfied with it which was the point you must have missed and at this point you are really not adding anything to the conversation for those of us who are looking to keep a good thing going for a reasonable amount of $.
I would already be in touch with Sora Sound working a deal to replace it
Do you mean to buy another ? They can not replace any refurbished cartridges as they can replace an original (even broken original) with their ZYX exchange program.
@chakster, @nandric, you two just don't give up and it makes both your points pointless, this is not about if the cartridges change with a rebuild but if the change is slight enough to warrant the choice of a rebuild/retip by an outside vender and you can still enjoy that cart to the fullest. I have stated before that sometimes it does not work out but when it does, money well spent. Some people just want to listen to a different cart every day, not me, I have narrowed things down to about 4 different carts and just want to enjoy them for as long as they still produce the sound that I have come to love and enjoy. The Universe is such a sweet cart and end of the road for me that if the rebuild had not worked out well I would already be in touch with Sora Sound working a deal to replace it, instead I am just playing album after album after album after album and sitting on my hands to keep from clapping.
I have really been pleased with the 8 carts that I have had rebuilt by Soundsmith
It a destiny of MCs
Personally i don't think it's normal that so many nice (sometimes unique and exotic cartridges) from many different manufacturers/designers are all goes to one person for refurbishing with third-party parts.
This is one of the reason i love the MM cartridges, at least we can change the cantilever/stylus assembly by ourself in 5 seconds (if we have original replacement) without ruining the sound character of the cartridge. No compromises here.
Refurbished some special MC cartridges by third-party vendor is always a compromise. Good business for the vendors, but is that good for the cartridge?
Someone should make a direct comparison of those unique cartridges in stock condition to the refurbished cartridges with different parts (cantilever, stylus).
Our memories, unfortunately, can not hold the information of particular sound for a month, comparing refurbished cartridge to the memories is not a good idea. We're always biased by the new toys. We have to compare original to refurbished in the real life in the same system.
To the person who suggested that I should compare a retipped universe to an OEM universe, I can’t do that because I only have one universe cartridge, and it has its original stylus, which has only 50 or so hours on it.
However, tooblue’s experience tends to confirm what we have already been saying, if you choose to re- tip using an after market vendor, it is best to choose cantilever materials and a stylus shape that most closely resemble those of the original.
Received the ZYX Universe, copper coiled low output with the silver base back from Soundsmith a week ago Tuesday. The rebuild was their boron cantilever with the line contact stylus. Installed the cart on my VPI 10 inch 3D arm mounted on a Prime table with periphery ring clamp, BDR clamp or Stillpoints LPS clamp, Single motor flywheel assembly and SDS speed controller, set up was straight forward, VTA level, dressed the wiring for anti skate, set azimuth by eye and tracking set around 2.1 grams and at this point walked away and waited for some time later that eve to get started with this evaluation. Pulled 20 albums that I know very well and were recently familar with played with this cart before the rebuild so at this point felt I had set the table for a good evaluation. My normal process is to clean my stylus with a long bristled stylus brush to knock off any loose dust and then drop it into a jell based stylus cleaner and this was the first sign that things were going right, the Universe is the one cart I have owned where this is almost a silent cleaning when this protocal is used with it, very hard to hear the brush against the stylus. Played the first album and set back with a black Russian (drink) and just fell into a grove, after the first and into the second album I just started enjoying the music, 8 albums later I had to force myself to go to bed. Night 2, I adjusted the VTA a slight bit but back to level again since the suspension seems to have settled in. Long story short, I am very glad to have my Universe back, it is truly the one cart that when it is out of my system I am looking to get it back into my system as soon as possible and the rebuild seems to be very close to the stock one to my ears. Now I am not so naive to think that there is not some differences to the stock verses rebuilt Universes but to my ears and for my money ($462.00) I am looking over my shoulder thinking I really got away with something here and would recommend this rebuild to others as well. I have really been pleased with the 8 carts that I have had rebuilt by Soundsmith, all with the Ruby or Sapphire cantilevered rebuilds, except for the Dynavector DRT XV1s that was still an excellent cart but the tone changed so when the XV1s that I run now needs rebuilt it will get the Boron rebuild. The lesson I take away from this is that no matter what your having rebuilt or retipped, especially if it is one of the top tier carts like the Universe, XV1s or other top model that you consult with your trusted rebuilder to mimic as close as possible the parts being replaced. Enjoy the music, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
I should have the ZYX Universe here Thursday and after I run it in I will report back with the comparisons to the cart in stock form to which I put over 2,000 hours on and am familiar with.
Chakster is exactly right, the cartridge I am offering to send you, after a brief breakin, is an original ZYX Universe with copper coils .24 output with the silver base that is on its way to me from Sound smith with a new Boron canti!ever and Line Contact stylus installed. This would give you the opportunity to directly compare a stock one to a soundsmith rebuilt one and report your findings to the masses.
tooblue, When you say "the same cartridge", do you refer to the Grace Ruby, or which other? If the Grace Ruby, you evidently chose to put a boron cantilever on it. Now it's a Grace Boron. Neither cartridge is now "stock", but I do own a second Grace Ruby that has still got its OEM cantilever and stylus. IMO, it sounds a bit different from the SS re-tipped one. Maybe more top to bottom "continuous" (in HPs terminology) but less exciting and less "you are there".
@lewm,I have the same cart on its way back from Sound smith with their boron cantilevered Line Contact diamond rebuild applied, I thought you could compare it to your stock cart and directly compare the two after I get a few hours on it.
Tooblue. I am not sure what you are offering. I do own the low output, copper coil, X version of the Universe, but if you have the same, what is there to gain?
@lewm, if you are interested and since I believe you have the same Universe I do, original copper X model, I would be willing to send you mine after a brief break in to compare to your stock model. I value your thoughts on this matter and would be very interested in your take on the results. What say you?
Lew: If you only have a few hundred hours on that Koetsu I wouldn’t even think of retipping it until you hit 1500-1800 hours. As long as it’s sounding good and the suspension is good just let it do its thing and enjoy it. My guess is that the bass is just a bit rounder on the Koetsu compared to your other cartridges and a retip will not likely change that. If it only has 200-300 hours on it I think you’d be throwing good money away.
A bit of a run on the Cardas LP (I think everyone should have that record-every new or retipped cartridge I buy gets about an hour or two on that record before playing any music and I’d say that is the equivalent of playing 50 hours of music and suffering through the break in process ) probably loosened it up nicely after being in storage and, as you say, it will probably get better quickly now after playing a bit more music. And you may well be hearing a more sympathetic match of cartridge/tonearm as you say.
It is great that Peter has a boron option now. When I was retipping cartridges with him about 5-6 years ago he did not-ruby (apart from the entry level aluminum/eliptical he did) was the only option.
Interestingly, there was talk of boron cantilevers being in short supply and possibly even disappearing about 2-3 years ago but that seems to have passed now.
Warren Jarrett over at the Steve Hoffman forum very graciously organized a group buy of Namiki boron cantilevers with microridge styli earlier this year and I picked up two at that time and then bought another from a member there who sent a cartridge to Soundsmith that could not be repaired. I’ve used one in a retip I did recently, so have the other two, but wish at this time that I’d bought at least one more and possibly two.
Just to clarify, I do not believe that Soundsmith’s OCL (optimized contact line) stylus is on the boron cantilever that Soundsmith has. Pretty sure that it is a more traditional line contact or microridge but that could be confirmed with Peter. I believe the OCL (which I had on a retip that I had Peter do a number of years back-I also had his standard line contact on ruby so am familiar with both of those) is only on the ruby cantilevers that he supplies.
I had a bit of a love/hate relationship with that OCL, which supposedly closely resembles both the cutter head and Ortofon’s Replicant stylus (which I have not had). I found it to be a bit of a detail champ, but it was without doubt the most difficult stylus that I have ever set up. It was extremely finicky and very small changes in VTF/SRA and azimuth would really throw it out of wack and result in it sounding rather poor.
The more standard microridge styli (still very good) that I’ve been using the past few years are much easier to set up and much less sensitive to very small changes in setup with maybe a very, very slight loss of detail.
Before I got crazy with turntables, tonearms, and cartridges, which must have been about 10 years ago and definitely coincides with my finding these various fora for discussion, I owned only one turntable, one tonearm, and one cartridge at a time, for the previous 30 years of audiophilia. That last single cartridge was/is a Koetsu Urushi, which I purchased new in Tokyo, thanks to the language skills of our son. In the pre-crazy days, it rode only in my Triplanar on my Notts Hyperspace. I still have the Urushi and the TP but not the Notts. The Urushi sat in its wooden box for the last at least 6-7 years while I happily fiddled around with many other cartridges, most of them MM or MI types.
I very grossly estimate that the Urushi has a few hundred hours on it, and I was thinking of selling it after first having it inspected by SS, so I could make an honest statement of its condition. I recently learned that SS can now do boron cantilevers, which I believe is a match to the Koetsu material, or at least its the same metal, and I was lately also thinking about a re-tip at SS. I could probably get it re-tipped by Koetsu via the dealer in Tokyo from whom I purchased it, but that would entail a lot of footwork for my son Dan, and he is a busy guy. Anyway, I only recently decided to give it a whirl, before spending any money. I mounted it on my Kenwood L07D with aftermarket copper platter mat and riding on the L07J tonearm in an 18g Ortofon L9000 headshell that I bought in Tokyo. (I always wondered whether the effective mass of the TP was sufficiently high to get the most out of the Urushi, which has low compliance.) Wow! I am pleasantly surprised. After some burn-in using the Cardas test LP and after a few more hours of playing music, the Urushi is sounding great and is no longer a candidate for dismissal just yet. It's probably still a bit short of my very favorite MI and the ZYX Universe, but I don't remember it ever sounding this good on my Notts/TP. (But on the other hand, my system is also better now than it was then.) The one criticism so far is bass articulation, compared to the Universe, the AT ART7, and the Acutex LPM320. However, the midrange and treble are really delicious. I guess the next step, following JCarr's advice, would be to do the Boron cantilever/OCL from SS.
the picture of the cantilever/stylus assembly you posted is for which ZYX? Thanks for posting that, a picture is worth a 1,000 words.
That was a picture of my ZYX Airy III, but you will find same cantilever construction even on their top of the line Ultimate Dynamic and down to the lower model Yatra etc.
Lew: I think your post above (and Jonathan Carr's similar advice from 2013) in retipping with "like for like" is very important.
I've retipped 5 different cartridges with two different retippers in the past 6-7 years with 3 different cantilever materials (ruby, sapphire and boron) and 3 different stylus profiles. But all of the stylus profiles were line contact or microridge.
Only anecdotal based on my experience but I think that if you are switching from one pretty exotic stylus profile to another (FG, various line contact or microridge, shibata, etc.) as opposed to switching from a conical to the more extreme profiles (ie. retipping something like a Denon 103R with a line contact stylus is a pretty major improvment IMO), that a change in cantilever material will probably have more of an effect in changing the personality of the cartridge.
I think this is where some run into problems with retips as the personality can change dramatically and one might be disappointed; on the other hand due to subjective listening preferences another listener may in fact prefer that exact same "personality change" and prefer the retipped version and feel the cartridge is improved. It's just the nature of our hobby.
I tend to share my preference for boron cantilevers with JCarr, so while I feel one might get a performance boost moving from an aluminum cantilever to either ruby/sapphire, I'd be reluctant to replace any boron cantilever with something other than boron. But I can fully understand how someone might actually prefer the other options.
At this stage I'm partial to boron/microridge in terms of what it brings to the table and can see myself sticking with that option in the future even if the cartridge was originally voiced with something else. That may not meet with a "purist" point of view but at least my decision on that is grounded in some experience and my own subjective preferences.
@chakster,@nandric, you two guys never get tired of saying the same thing over and over again, for what it is worth, I got it as everyone else probably has got it as well, point made, now let's move on.
right, i wish we could stop
I have had several cartridges rebuilt by SS with their Ruby/Optimum Line Contact diamond and they definitely sounded better than stock, these were a Shelter 901, Shelter 90X, Shelter 501, Lyra Helikon and a Lyra Helikin SL so I feel quite good about taking a chance that has saved me $5,000.00 in one attemp.
ohh, you're so in love with one type of third-party cantilever on all your carts and you don't have SoundSmith cartridge yet ?
I also like Ruby cantilevers, but the original Ruby made by Grace, Dynavector, Klipsch for their cartridges. They are all different by the way.
There is no universal cantilver/stylus for all cartridges, so personally i don't believe SoundSmith Ruby/Optim LineContact is better than the original design (just a common sense). No probs if it worked for you and all your cartridges.
@lewm, anyone can refute anything they want, in my system on my arm the two Lyras in question sounded better to my ears and that is not debateable, I have even gone as far as sending SS a Shelter 901 with plenty of life left to have it rebuilt to achieve the instant upgrade. Now with all this said I have had a Dynavector DRT XV1s rebuilt with the same ruby cantilever and OLC stylus and it was not as good as the original so when I wear out the DRT XV1s I have now in stock form I will have it retipped and hope for the best, it is a gamble but one I feel is worth trying.
I had a Lyra Delos retipped and it sounded pretty much the same as the original as far as I could remember. The price I was quoted by the American distributor to rebuild was the same as I could buy a brand new one with a small discount. Basically highway robbery
Chakster, To say you want to hear the "original" sound of a vintage cartridge is almost an oxymoron. If we define "vintage" as "older than 30 years", then you are buying a 30-or more year old suspension. We have no way of knowing how such an old cartridge sounded when it was "original", which implies "new", because of unavoidable changes in the suspension due to aging. Once we accept this fact, I totally agree that there are some gems among vintage cartridges, especially MM and MI types. (I have yet to unearth a NOS or used vintage LOMC that made me want to celebrate. Some are good though.)
Also, so far as I know, ZYX is not alone among the manufacturers who charge quite a large fraction of the original value to do "renewal" at the factory. Most do. Miyajima seem to be an exception to the rule. Maybe also van den Hul.
tooblue, JCarr has not been around this forum for quite some time, but I am sure he would refute your contention that any of his Lyra cartridges should benefit from the installation of a ruby cantilever. He specifically mentions why in his posts to be found in this thread, which all date back to 2013. This is not to say that you cannot like what you hear.
@chakster,@nandric, you two guys never get tired of saying the same thing over and over again, for what it is worth, I got it as everyone else probably has got it as well, point made, now let's move on. I have had several cartridges rebuilt by SS with their Ruby/Optimum Line Contact diamond and they definitely sounded better than stock, these were a Shelter 901, Shelter 90X, Shelter 501, Lyra Helikon and a Lyra Helikin SL so I feel quite good about taking a chance that has saved me $5,000.00 in one attemp. And to @charter I will spend my money any way I see fit and you can spend yours anyway you see fit.
@nandric that's fine, i just don't want to re-tip of rebuild any of my cartridges until i will find the one which i want to keep forever. There are always a cartridges i want to try, so i think it will never happen. Also i have some carts that i have not tested yet, so i have plenty of time.
Do you think retipping MM cartridges hype is over ? I remember when it was very popular on audiogon, even the mexican term "refresh of suspension", but i still have no idea what does that mean.
My advice for those who can't afford ZYX exchange service - don't buy this cartridge, find something that can be factory re-tipped by the original designer himself for reasonable price. Or prepare to pay 60% each time you want to change worn ZYX to a new ZYX and do not complain.
-SoundSmith cartridges are very cheap in service.
-Miyajima cartridges in the beginning were also relatively cheap in service by its designer (now much more expensive).
Personally i would buy another vintage cartridge in NOS condition when it's time to retip an old one, just because i want to hear an original sound, not a hybrid of old and new components compiled together by some third-party vendor. I know that i can trust the original, always.
I am glad this thread got resurrected, because I was interested to re-read JCarr's comments from 2013. For me, the take home lesson is that if you choose to economize by engaging the services of an after-market re-tipper for a "boutique" LOMC cartridge, the best course of action is to choose a cantilever material and stylus shape that most closely matches those of the original. In other words, if you love love love the cartridge and want to preserve its SQ, it is not a good idea to switch from aluminum to sapphire/ruby for the cantilever or from elliptical to OCL for the stylus, even though both sound more "sexy". (This should seem obvious.) However, if the cartridge in question is not an object of affection, and if you are a gambler, then go ahead and shoot for the moon. You might re-invent the wheel.
It is my 40+ year habit as a scientist to boil things down to a few easily cathected bits of information.
I have a zyx airy 3. The problem is the exchange price for all these cartridge. If you have a van den hull cartridge, it cost peanuts to get it retipped , very honest.
@nandric "the same" is what on the picture, "the hybrid" is what you have from Axel. I believe you have not even tried the original ZYX (did you?), what you have is not a ZYX, but no doubt that it’s still an MC cartridge that you can use, maybe you like it, but i know it’s not your favorite cartridge anyway.
I don’t use ZYX cartridges anymore for practical reason, i just don’t want to buy new ZYX cartridge almost for 60-70% of full price each time the stylus is expired. I have better cartridges than my ex Zyx Airy III and Zyx Premium 4D (but 5 times cheaper rare vintage MM and some MC).
What i know for sure is that my re-cantilevered (by Axel) cartridges are not equal to the original cartridges (same model). I’ve had at least 4 carts refurbished by Axel long time ago for previous owner, they were OK only until i’ve managed to buy an original. Then i realized the original is superior, completely different sound. It was Technics top of the line carts.
Why do i have to believe that refurbished ZYX with different cantilever, different stylus is equal to the original ZYX made by Nakatsuka-San?
For me it’s obvious that they are not equal, especially after i’ve tried and compared 4 samples of Axel work to the original Technics. So i don’t like the idea at all, but it’s just me (i am using only original cartridges so far).
This is original ZYX cantilever with original MicroRidge stylus tip. No one can do the same, re-tipped or re-cantilevered ZYX is no longer ZYX cartridge, but some sort of hybrid with different sound.
FWIW, I just received notice from Soundsmith that they have completed the work on my ZYX Universe and it is on its way back to me, sent in for a retip but Peter said the original cantilever would not allow for the pressing of a new stylus through it so he replaced with his boron cantilever with the OLC stylus to best mimic the original parts. Will post impressions as I get the cart settled in for those who might be curious. Can't wait to get it up and running and after putting over 2200 hours on it before the work done I should be able to detect any differences to the sound character of the newly rebuilt Universe.
@chayro, yea the $ spent versus the quality of sound that you receive from the retip/rebuild is so wide that I would never be able to afford replacing the carts that I have now, just need to be informed if possible on the right way to go, as in my DRT XV1s it was still the second best cart I had owned at the time with the rebuid and that was compared to itself in stock form. I hope to have as much success with the Universe, it is such a special cart.
Soundsmith did a great job on my Transfiguration Spirit. I recall that when I replaced the Spirit with an Orpheus, I remembered a big step up in sound quality. When I installed the Spirit after it came back, I was expecting a big downgrade, but it wasn't. Sounded absolutely fine, even compared to the Orpehus. Could be that the Spirit was worn when I upgraded, so an improvement is easily heard, or just that Soundsmith actually improved the sound of the original. I don't know and I don't really care why. I just know I'm happy with the cartridge and I paid $500, not $5000, so it's cool. Enjoy.
@roscoeiii ,I too am interested in hearing from people that have farmed out the rebuild or retip from an outside source and their impressions of the results. To get started I will list my take on the few I have done. All of these have been Soundsmith 2nd or 3rd level saphire/ruby rebuilds. She!ter 501, level 2, sounded slightly better than stock, Koetsu Goldline Black, level 2, sounded lot better than stock, Lyra Helkon, level 2, WOW, Shelter 901, level 3, another WOW, Dynavector DRT XV1s, level 3, this was a lateral move at best, when I do the DRT XV1s that I run now in another arm wand I will still use Soundsmith but use a retip instead. Am just waiting on my ZYX Universe to show distress and will be sending it to Soundsmith for a retip which I will consult with the owner. Will report back here after done and broken in.
Dear Truemaineiac: Koetsu is way different and maybe for the kind of music you like could not match very well, there are several options like Lyra or Van Den Hul: both great performers. Other alternative is Transfiguration Phoenix.
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