I just came across an interesting discovery concerning my relatively recent purchace of a pair of Gemme audio Tanto V2's.Approximately two or three weeks ago,I had invited my best friend who happens to be an audiophile like me,for a sitdown to listen to my newly aquired purchace.
His first remark was when I had put on a cd of Hadouk Trio(that has more bass than one could ask for), led him to believe that there was some boominess occuring within the room.Escpecially at higher listening levels.We both agreed that I would need to do some further room treatment to reduce or even elimeinate this problem.The Tanto V,2s have a tuning ring that could be added or removed to adjust the bass output according to your needs and specification.This did help somewhat,but I seemed to be going back and forth,all depending on the type of music I was playing,and at what level.After this was discovered,I purchaced a pair of 24" by 48" by 4" bass traps that I had placed right behind where the firing ports are situated.Its seemed to help to some degree.But after some further critical listening,and sampling cds that had exaggerated bass.It came to my attention that the Gemmes were not quite holding it down(the bass part) as they were acclaimed to be able to.Furthermore,it also became apparent to me that the high frequencies started to grate on me,also at higher listening levels.
So I decided to call Solen Audio for where most of the inner parts came from anyways.The tech said bring in both speakers,and we will test them.On the phone he admitted that there is a probability that there is some high frequencies getting tied up in ther midbass driver due to the lack of no crossover whatsoever!
One hour later I was at Solen audio in the back of their store,with both speaker being put on graphs and some kind of mike to detect certain problems.The result was that the midbass drive(Silverflute) was the culprit.And I was asked to put my ear close to one of the speakers.I heard this sort sound like glass was being broken.One of the techs said "that my friend is absolute distortion you are hearing", and probably why you were hearing this form of resonance in you own room.
The whole team could not believe that Gemme audio would have used such a cheap midbass driver in an $8000.00 enclosure.Granted,the vifa tweeter were not expensive either in comparison.But the main guy overseeing this said "they use them in $30,000.00 Sonus Fabar's" so we will keep them,in relation to a possibilty of even changing them for a pair of Morel tweeter that went for $350.00 a pair. They decided to put in a pair of $350.00 USD midbass Satori drivers that should correct this problem As for the highs being detected in the midbass was on point,and having to build a two way outboard crossover should solve this issue too.
Has any body out encountered this form of "cutting corners" where your speakers cabinet is of exceptional quality inside and out.Yet some the other moving parts were to be desired.
Lastly,do you think this could effect my resale value somewhere down the line if I would wish to sell them one day?
Lastly,do you think this could effect my resale value somewhere down the line if I would wish to sell them one day?
Almost assuredly YES, though not in a positive way. Speaker remodelling is not as common as electronics modifying. You will find that, on average modifying the original unit will recoup very little of the money invested in the unit. In fact, in some cases, if the unit is not modded by a professionally reputable company, the resale value may actually be less than an unmodified unit.
So to make the long story short $8,000 is just enclosure the rest is disposable trash needs replacement and remodeling. It looks like Gemme is actually spelled G I V E M E.
You might as well go with electronic crossover that actually does not have these issues by nature and dump the built-in one.
It was only a few weeks ago that the sound of your speakers were "mind blowing".
Your changes have completely altered the intended design of the loudspeaker. Unless the changes are reversible, you have significantly negatively impacted the value of the loudspeaker.
Oh...dont get me wrong they are awesome as is...as others who have heard my system can attest to!But its when I push them hard with 770 wpc of clean power with certain recordings that have incredible bass(like Patricia Barber to name a few).This is where I was noticing that the midbass driver was not holding its own in the lower octaves.
Viridian apparently thinks he's being funny (again). I don't think that there is any experienced buyer who would purchase a speaker that did not have original spec drivers. As has been said many times before, even if the new driver was better quality, it was not integrated into the designer's original design, not to mention the crossover. I think you would have a very difficult time selling them at all unless you put the original drivers back in place.
You're feeding your loudspeakers too much power and asking them to play too loud. How much bass do you think the woofer, even in Gemme's innovative design, can cleanly produce.
Brf....stated my thoughts. Just reverse mod it for resale.
I mod just about every item I have for sonic improvements, to include amps, sources and speakers. What I want from a component is more important than what the next person may want. I would never listen to a component that I wasn't happy with or didn't feel that I could improve on.
And, when it has come time to sell the item I have always received more or, at least, the same price an non-modded unit would go for.
There are many reasonably priced electronics that benefit from mods.....from vintage tube amps through speakers. Most people I know would rather pay for a great sounding modded unit than a bad sounding stock unit.
So, IMO....go for it. Why limit your enjoyment. It sounds like you enjoy music at concert volume levels and, as you described, this piece, stock, does not perform and introduces distortions, that you have become sensitive to. Once you notice the distortion it will always bother you.
If you really don't want to mod them, for fear of your "investment" then sell them and buy something that meets your sonic needs.
Reading Lexidan's post and the replies was interesting and as usual there are some dividing opinions which is OK since these discussions are democratic. But many people have preconceived opinions and/or are not well informed. Lexidan has had the mods done by a worldwide renowned outfit (Solen) and I wouldn't hesitate to get work done on very expensive speakers by those guys. I've also met these people and they actually built from scratch a pair of speakers for my brother that would easily sell for twice the price had they been made by a well known manufacturer. So Lexidan, enjoy the mods and whenever the time comes to sell stick to the market price. Like someone said in the replies; have them auditioned before selling and don't advertise them ''as modified'' The buyer HAS TO trust his ears, not his eyes or preconceived ideas about mods... Cheers to all!
In fact,I will be probably keeping the Gemmes for quite a while.As contrary to what Onhwy61 has stated,the Gemmes really can take incredible amount of power,and I was assured that it wasnt on account of this that the original driver was distorting,but rather due to inferior quality craftmanship.They(Solen Audio) assured me that you will have no problem listening to your speakers at "concert" levels without any form of breakup in the music.In fact I noticed that some of my chinaware had displaced itself about 15 feet away to some degree.So I cannot wait to see the result when everything will be intact and as it should have been from the get go.So in effect I bought a product that had already brought me alot of listening pleasure,and I just want to improve on this already great product.
The founders of Gemme Audio we're never reluctant about sharing their driver types and their sources. Robert even posts here occasionally to help owners with questions.
True, the wool impregnated woofer and Vifa tweeter can be had off the rack at Madisound for less than $100 (this was well known) and are wrapped in a $5000 (original retail) cabinet. I'd take that option any day over some unobtainable driver pair from a manufacturer that is no longer around in it's original form...currently Arteluthe)
While I won't deny your pair having issues, I have to wonder if your 700 watts and "at higher listening levels" had something to do with it. The Tantos are very easy to drive to uncomfortable volume levels with 150 watts in my large room. They're pretty efficient, and as you're learned, have no internal crossover and only one cap protecting the tweeter.
As to modding them, have at it and let us all know how it works out. As long as you're honest about the swap and "reverse swap" when it comes time to sell, they're yours to do as you please.
Didn't you think this issue was originally your amp selection? Regarding boominees, have you played with speaker placement? How far from the rear wall are they?
While the Tantos produce a prodigious amount of bass (that R&D thing again), have you considered passing the low frequency duties off to a sub? I'm wondering if you're asking too much of this pair for your particular needs.
Viridian, I was being sarcastic, not trying to be comical. It was obviously a fraudulent ad, and I was trying to make other members aware of it. What have you done lately to justify your oxygen consumption? Why don't you buy Zyac39s speakers and paint them pink. I'm sure that you won't lose anything when you sell them.
REsale value is based purely on buyer perceptions. Buyers tend to look for things they are familiar with, a certain brand, model, feature etc.
Once a product is modified, it is no longer the same product technically. It may be much better...or not. It s much harder and rarer for a buyer to be able to percieve and recognize the value.
If you remember correctly that my first issue was finding the right amp.Due to high impedence curves on account of no crossover,this is quite a demand on an amp. Provided your dampening factor is high,and slew rate is on point,150 wpc will make them sing.But try 400 500 or more per side and watch the Tantos transform your room even at low listening levels.Provided you feed them with clean and unadultered power.Indeed,their is the law of physics we have to respect here when dealing with a 6.5 inch driver.But as you well know its the cabinet itself that is producing this massive like bass too(due in part to a full transmission line enclosure,coupled with a V/Flex design. I have so far used half of the amps full capability(power wise) and the Gemmes took it without a hitch.Its when I was trying certain cds(like Hadouk trio,patricia Barber) that this "boominess" became more and more apparent.But Solen assured me that this issue will be resolved.But nonetheless i will still have to respect the Tantos and keep it at under 12:00 just to be on the safe side,my ears included! As for speaker placement,I have them currently at 24" from rear wall,with 4" thick Bass panels for where the firing ports are located.I have them at about 7 1/2 to 8 feet from each other and i am seated approx 10' away.
Zyac, I'd be interested in your thoughts ( and full details) on the mods once you get them back and had a chance to break them in. Best of luck with the outcome!
Viridian, Speaking as you did of "just plain wrong", that's what you are when you suggest that Zyac39 sell speakers without disclosing that he has changed the original drivers. It's called fraud.
Sarcasm is not beneficial to this discussion and has no added value...Let'S not get into ''mine is gigger than yours'' When I suggested that Lexidan not mention the mods in his hypothetical ad (future) I didn't mean to ''hide'' the fact of the mod to the buyer. I didn't explain myself quite well I'll admit. I'm not so crass as to try to lie to a fellow audiophile. I would tell him AFTER he auditions them. This way the fact would not color his assesment of the sound quality. Speakers are the most ''personal'' of components in an audio system. Not all excellent speakers please everyone, and thank God we have choice galore. Oh, and I wholeheartedly agree with Mapman.
11-11-14: Onhwy61 You're feeding your loudspeakers too much power and asking them to play too loud. How much bass do you think the woofer, even in Gemme's innovative design, can cleanly produce?
Yes! It's a small-diameter 2-way design in an elegantly designed and finished floorstanding enclosure. It's one thing to design a speaker capable of some deep audible bass; it's another to expect it to reproduce the full power of a 100-pc orchestra plus pipe organ. Expecting the latter performance just because it's an $8,000 speaker is not logical, especially when it's obvious that most of that money went into cabinetry, fit, and finish.
To get an idea just how much the cabinetry figures into the cost, check out the Odyssey Lorelei, also a 7" 2-way floorstander with bass into the 20s. The Lorelei, however, uses expensive drivers ($165 mid/woof, $167 tweeter) and utilitarian cabinetry, and comes in at $2900 for a pair containing over $660 worth of drivers.
Even so, I wouldn't expect them to soak up 700w and output 120+ dB without compression, distortion, and room overload. You may be better off adding a sub or two rather than chasing your tail trying to make a modest 2-way sound like a full-range 4+ driver 200-lb. floorstander.
I sold two sets of speakers I modified at higher prices than I paid. It only takes one educated buyer to recognize a good value in a modified speaker. By educated, I mean a buyer who recognizes great parts and good work. Most likely another who modifies and understands the great sonic gain of wise mods.
Indeed,The are limits to what a two way configuration like speaker can handle!Yet I have been testing my Gemmes at half of its its rated 770 wpc(which would be just shy of 400 wpc) And the signal is clean and load is not strained or at its limit.So have the experts at Solen Audio come to the same conclusion.And this is with a pair of cheap factory installed drivers.And they(Solen) have garanteed me that the Satoris will play better and handle way more power.In any case,as I stated in a pervious reply,I will just have to keep the SPL at under 12:00.An even at that level(believe it or not)the Tantos had actually displaced some of my chinaware,at some 15 feet away!!
This post will fire up the discussion; I'll start by saying that I contacted Lexidan since thru the member lookup I found that we live about 1/2 hour of each other. He got his modded Tantos back and let me tell you that I've never heard Tantos sound this good. This is definitely NOT a Franky job...it was done by pros who replaced the mid-woofer for something way better and also they added outboard x-overs to adress the issue of wrong frequencies ending up in the wrong drivers. And it doesn't look like a Mickey Mouse job either. But the sound is just wonderfull, and it defies logic what a tower of this size can output as far as impact and bass. And boy can they handle power, and they DESERVE a clean and powerful amp like Lexidan has. I told him to ignore the ''devaluation'' comments and that he should actually sell them for more than market value whenever the time comes, the mods are THAT good. I challenge anyone to contact Lexidan and drop over for a listen if they can, sceptics will be confounded.
This post will fire up the discussion; I'll start by saying that I contacted Lexidan since thru the member lookup I found that we live about 1/2 hour of each other. He got his modded Tantos back and let me tell you that I've never heard Tantos sound this good. This is definitely NOT a Franky job...it was done by pros who replaced the mid-woofer for something way better and also they added outboard x-overs to adress the issue of wrong frequencies ending up in the wrong drivers. And it doesn't look like a Mickey Mouse job either. But the sound is just wonderfull, and it defies logic what a tower of this size can output as far as impact and bass. And boy can they handle power, and they DESERVE a clean and powerful amp like Lexidan has. I told him to ignore the ''devaluation'' comments and that he should actually sell them for more than market value whenever the time comes, the mods are THAT good. I challenge anyone to contact Lexidan and drop over for a listen if they can, sceptics will be confounded.
Thanks a whole lot Hifi Pete.
Indeed,the change on the Tantos is dramatic(and thats putting it mildly).They only have 100 hrs burn in time,and already the sound is nothing short of spectacular!!Everything is exactly as is was supposed to be now,and as far as focus and imagery,its pinpoint accurate.Time coherency now allows for the speakers to dissapear in the room.The soundstage is huge and with and incredible black background.The presicion and detail,is almost beyond words coming from the mids and highs,with a new sense of air and transparency!and the bass is very,very articulate,with an iron fistlike authority now!
Common sense will tell you that if you replace the drivers and add outboard crossovers to a speaker designed with NO crossover, what you will end up with is not even in the neighborhood of the original design. If one is prepared (and inclined) to go to this length, why did he buy said speakers in the first place. This isn't a matter of replacing caps in an amplifier with better quality parts. This is deviating completely from the plan.
I say if you like the end result, you could never have liked what you started with.
Not Necessary Shakey,I really did like what I heard at first glance.It's when I pushed the Tanto s is when certain unsavorable characteristists started acting up.And this unpleasant boominess in the mid woofer became apparent only with certain recordings at certain listening levels.But overall I was quite please with them aside from this issue.
Indeed!But just for the record,Robert Gaboury(the x owner of Gemme Audio).Started a new line of speakers called Arteluthe. If I am not mistaken,he is using practically the same speaker enclosure as the Tantos,yet with complete different drivers. And quite costly as a matter of fact.But same two way configuration,but now with a crossover.And probably some inner pading that the Tantos never had.
Yes,Raymonda they were bought orininally to please my ears,not someone else's.And now modified,I still did it for the same reasons.Yet one of my Audiophile buddies came over for a listen(who owns a pair of Eg glestonworks Andras coupled with a Krell FPB 700cx). This is coming very close to what I have at home. He still cannot get over what these small encolures can furnish.
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