@jsm71
BTW, why the replacement head shell? What are the advantages? Azimuth adjustment?
BTW, why the replacement head shell? What are the advantages? Azimuth adjustment?
Rega RP8 or Technics SL1200G
I'm a bit reluctant to post this "either or question" because I know that everything in this hobby is subjective, but here goes.
I currently have a Rega RP3-24 with an Exact 2 and I want to upgrade to my final turntable. I have read all the reviews that are available on both tables and both received stellar reviews, although Fremer stated that his RP8 sample table ran a little fast. I like the simplicity of the RP8 ($3000), however, I also like the adjustability of the SL1200G ($4000) which eases the task of trying different cartridges, although I don't plan on swapping out cartridges very often. On the other hand, I am not adverse to using spacers to adjust VTA on the Rega so I can try non Rega cartridges.
So it really comes down to which table sounds better, which is built better, etc. I would like to hear from anyone who owns or has heard either of these tables. I won't have the opportunity to audition either one.
I listen to rock, jazz and some classical.
The rest of my system is:
Cayin A-88T MKII Integrated with Gold Lion KT88's or Svetlana Winged C EL34
PS Audio GCPH w/Underwood Mod (planning to upgrade to Parasound JC3+)
Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th Anniversary
Rega Apollo-R
Accuphase T101
Cables: Morrow PH4 to phone preamp
Thanks in advance.
Eric
I currently have a Rega RP3-24 with an Exact 2 and I want to upgrade to my final turntable. I have read all the reviews that are available on both tables and both received stellar reviews, although Fremer stated that his RP8 sample table ran a little fast. I like the simplicity of the RP8 ($3000), however, I also like the adjustability of the SL1200G ($4000) which eases the task of trying different cartridges, although I don't plan on swapping out cartridges very often. On the other hand, I am not adverse to using spacers to adjust VTA on the Rega so I can try non Rega cartridges.
So it really comes down to which table sounds better, which is built better, etc. I would like to hear from anyone who owns or has heard either of these tables. I won't have the opportunity to audition either one.
I listen to rock, jazz and some classical.
The rest of my system is:
Cayin A-88T MKII Integrated with Gold Lion KT88's or Svetlana Winged C EL34
PS Audio GCPH w/Underwood Mod (planning to upgrade to Parasound JC3+)
Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th Anniversary
Rega Apollo-R
Accuphase T101
Cables: Morrow PH4 to phone preamp
Thanks in advance.
Eric
126 responses Add your response
@ericsch I got a chance to hear the Hana SL cart at the last Capital Audio Fest. This is a very musical sounding cart with nothing I could point my finger at as doing wrong and at its price point a strong choice. The room using the Hana was a fun and nicely balanced room run by Dr. Vinyl. The TT holding the Hana was a Pear Audio Kid Howard turntable with Cornet 2 tonearm ($4995). That puts it in the quality tier of the Technics 1200G in my mind, but I still prefer the values of DD and ease of use. I'm sure the Technics will bring out the its best. IMO the only reason the Technics isn't a $5k table is a function of Panasonic's engineering and mfg scale. I'm stealing that from other reviewer observations but I happen to agree. BTW, my other short list option was the VPI Prime, but that was based more on looks. In the end function, opinions on reliability, hearing it with my own ears, and to many respects glowing reviews for the Technics won out. Blindly, I'm sold on DD. |
@ericsch on why the replacement head shell I’m opting for the minor upgrade in head shells for yes, azimuth adjustments primarily. I’m not expecting huge gains in sound over the stock head shell, but some have said it was a step up. I also want the same head shell for comparisons between my two carts. My AT ART9 is new and not even broken in yet. Once it fully blooms I’ll do A/B testing with my Lyra Delos. Another thread on this site that focuses on the ART9 suggested by some that the ART9 might be the better cart at roughly half the cost. I want to see for myself so I have to have similar mountings. Early listening has convinced me the two are quite different. Being better depends on lots of things. The ART9 has a fuller presentation and perhaps better channel separation. The Delos is very precise with perhaps deeper and better controlled bass. Still too early for the final votes. We’ll see. The idea of having two carts I like for different things is not bad.
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congrats @jsm71 ! I will be very interested to hear how the ART9 and Delos compare as I own the '9 and am considering the Lyra. - i'm in a similar position with turntables and am considering the G, the RP8 and the VPI prime. At the moment my main goal of the upgrade is to have a faster, more explosive / dynamic presentation. A reliable source tells me the RP 8 wins in this area. anyone agree / disagree? thanks |
I'll bite. Disagree. Speed stability is one thing, the platter pad and its ability to control resonance in the LP as the groove is tracked is another. That variable has to be eliminated (same platter pad on each machine being auditioned) before you can definitively say one is more 'explosive' than another. |
This is not a fair comparison, but from what I've heard(on YouTube?), the RP8 sounded very good. On needle drops and in person, I found the SP10 not as good as a Linn lp12(note: the Linn was tweaked, and it was mostly the Technics 1200(old version, but somewhat tweaked) that fell (considerably) short of the Linn. These latter comparisons were on needle drops on PinkFish Media. Based on the same listening(i.e. YouTube?), the RP8 seems to be quite an upgrade from the RP6. |
jsm71 wrote: I also ordered two LP Gear Zupreme head shells (bought on Amazon however at a better price) in anticipation of the new table to serve my Lyra Delos and AT ART9 cartridges.A big +1 for the ZuPreme headshell (which is a rebadged Jelco HS-25 headshell). I've had one for 9 years. It increased dynamics and clarity from the moment I installed it on my SL1210M5G. It provides the additional advantage of adjustable azimuth, which has proved invaluable for dialing in a well-balanced soundstage. The ZuPreme is a fairly weight 14 grams, double the weight of the standard Technics headshell. However, KAB's 10g supplemental tonearm weight (scroll down to "10 Gr Aux Weight") fixes any potential imbalance problems and also increases compatibility with heavier cartridges. I have accumulated a few quality headshells that make it easy to switch among cartridges, including a nice Audio Technica HOMC mono cartridge which I use on Beatles and Beach Boys mono reissues, and also on thrift shop mono pressings. Lots of fun! |
@tzh21y, the table is exactly what I was hoping for and expecting. All the platitudes from other users are validated. This was a large jump up for me in tables and is my last. I retire in July. The biggest improvements are simply providing gravity to the presentation without altering the tonality of my carts. Piano is richer. The macro level presentation has more weight. Bass is better controlled. Micro details are a bit more noticable. I'm now getting cymbol shimmer that I've heard on better setups but never could urge from my prior table. I attribute this to both super speed control and a much more solid platform. From a usage perspective I now have an easy way to swap cartridges. One negative, I miss the ability to use my Qup arm lift. There simply isn't an available flat spot on the plinth to place it. I now have to be attentive and deal with the end of the side. I do most of my listening just before bed and I've been awaken by the Qup clicking and lifting the arm more than once. Oh well, I can live with that. I've also grown to really like the looks. I'm using the stock RCA and power cords for now. I have an upgraded phono cable on order and I'll probably up the PC as well. My supplier claims a better PC does make a difference with the table and he isn't trying to sell me anything. The phono cable upgrade is fully warranted. Anyone else upgrade the PC and note a difference? |
jsm71, I am highly interested in the Technics 1200G. I recently added a Tru-lift tonearm lifter to both of my TTs. Linn LP12 and Kuzma Stabi S (the pipe bomb) Needed to slightly adjust the suspension of the Linn and a 25yr old VPI magic brick came to the rescue to obtain a flat surface and bring the Tru-lift to the height needed. Both work perfectly. Could not imagine not having the Tru-lift to pickup the tonearm for me. Makes using vinyl almost as easy as CDs. The Tru-lift is more Spendy than the Qup but is more precise and adjustable. Only 3/4” in dia. Did not think that I could mount it on the Linn because of the tight space and I see that can / will be a problem with the Technics |
I just listened to Fremer's Coliburn versus the new Technics direct-drive. It was hard(I might have even gotten them mixed up.) to hear a difference. I heard it on YouTube, but I would still advise listening in person. The areas that might differ are in the high frequencies, and I noticed a download of Fremer's turntable, at a higher resolution(192kHz/24 bit?), was especially good in the midrange. I still would try to listen to the RP8. I could speculate on what the conclusions might be between the Technics and RP8, but I refuse to do so, because I think advice like that is bad advice, without an actual live listening comparison. |
@ericsch I have a Morrow PH5 on order. I was hoping to have it when the table arrived but no. I'm just using the stock RCA cable for now. I have other Morrow cables in the front end of my rig so I'm expecting another improvement once that gets inserted and settles in. My retailer who sold me the table also is recommending upgrading the power cable, but admits it must be thinner and flexible the way the cords fit so tightly underneath. He is recommending the Shunyata Venom 14. I actually have that cable elsewhere so I'll probably buy another. |
@ericsch The SL-1200G requires gymnastics to get the output cable and power cord inserted on the underside of the table. Once there they aren't easily bumped out, but garden hose cables that can't bend easily may be a non-starter for this table. I like the Morrow cables in the front end of my rig because they have to work in my rack and they are quite manageable. I'll have the PH5 from the table to my SUT, then a PH4 to my phono stage. Given how wonderful the table sounds maybe I'll bump the PH4 at some point to a 5 as well so they match.
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I'm not talking intellectual(i.e. using your mind to come to a conclusion), and I'm also not in the market, so it's a less important subject to me compared to others. What I am talking about is listening to the RP8 and the RP6 on YouTube. In that context(you can listen for yourself.), I don't believe they are in the same league. |
i really want to know how the arm is the weak link. I am getting mixed signals on this as some say it is great to the point where they feel they have no issues with putting 5000 dollar cartridges on it. fremer has a 9000 dollar cartridge on it in the video. whats up with that? The only thing that looks weak on the arm is the headshell. |
Dear @tzh21y : A tonearm with removable headshell design has a lot of advantages for you and any owner, in no priory order: - we can match any cartridge in better way changing/mounting and listening with different headshells till we decide with wich one performs the best. - one desired " characteristic " in a tonearm for performs the better is that its counterweigth stays ( on the cartridge final set up. ) as close as we can to the pivot bearing and with different headshells weigths we can acompplish that. - a weak point with the stock headshells is the headshell/female connectors and here we have to change for better quality, something than a non-removable design preclude. Now, I don’t have on had this Technics TT so I can’t attest what other people say about that the tonearm is the weak link in that design. I think that first we have to listen in stock status and then help us with different headshells and headshell wires and then decide if really is the weak link. Obviously that exist several tonearms that can performs better. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
rauliruegas A tonearm with removable headshell design has a lot of advantages for you and any owner ...Yes, having an interchangeable headshell on a pickup arm has its advantages. It also has disadvantages - most notably the loss of some rigidity - and that's why many of the best pickup arms have fixed headshells. As with everything in audio, there are almost always trade-offs. |
Dear @cleeds : I agree that everything in audio is not perfect, always exist trade offs. Please let me know """ many of the best pickup arms have fixed headshells """: which ones can even or outperforms the Technics EPA100MK2 or Lustre GST 801, everything the same. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
rauliruegas " many of the best pickup arms have fixed headshells ": which ones can even or outperforms the Technics EPA100MK2 or Lustre GST 801I never owned the Technics, so I don't have a good basis for comparison there. But I did once have a Lustre GST-801, which I think is the same as the Acos, and it is easily bettered, imo, by many arms, including the Triplanar and the SME V. And the Fidelity Research FR64fx - which I recall you not liking - walks all over the Lustre, imo. I replaced my Lustre with the FR and used it for years. (I sold it to a friend along with my Oracle turntable, and he still uses them.) |
@cleeds FR-64fx is lighweight tonearm, less popular than high mass FR-64s for some reason. Lustre GST-801 is universal, i use it with FR-7f cartridge (also with SPU Royal G mkII, it's about about 32g. weight). Lustre GST-801 also works fine with my lightweigh MM cartridges. I do not own the FR-64 arms, but as far as i know the armtube of Lustre GST-801 is very well damped, but the tube of FR64s is not damped at all. All i can say is that low compliance FR-7f LOMC sounds fantastic on Lustre GST-801 tonearm. My arm was rewired with Discovery Litz, i still need some tiny (missed) screws to munt the armlift etc, but i'm happy about the quality of this tonearm. I love my Reed 3p "12 too, but without arms like Lustre it would be impossible to use FR-7f in my arsenal. |
rauliruegas The GST-801 is a engineeering tonearm lesson for any manufacturer designer. Way way better than your V that I owned.The GST-801 suffered from a host of problems, including its compromised geometry by not getting the counterweight in the same plane as the record. That makes it a pretty poor "tonearm lesson." They also suffered from quality control problems, which is why my dealer at the time stopped selling them and why used ones are often sold in pieces, with some parts missing entirely. It's no wonder that they are no longer manufactured. According to vinylengine.com, it's the same as the Acos, so I'm not sure why you think that the two are "way different." I ditched my Lustre probably 30 years ago and never looked back. As I mentioned, the Fidelity Research and SME put it to shame in my systems although - to be fair - those are more expensive pickup arms. And you couldn't possibly have owned my SME V, because I bought mine new from a local dealer. all those undamped FR are the worst design ever. Period.That's an interesting pronouncement but coming from the same guy who (iirc) insists the Triplanar arm suffers an inherent design flaw, it doesn't mean much. In fact, such extreme pronouncements are usually meaningless. The world of audio - and especially turntables and pickup arms - isn't as simple as those like you would insist. The Lustre GST-801 was an interesting design, though. If the manufacturer had ever updated it with better geometry, materials and QC, it might have been a contender. Now it's just an oddity. |
Hi jsm71, when you get your Technics 1200G with cartridge, please do a review of it. I was close to getting this or looking at the 1200GR. The Technics is maintenance free and based off the history of the 1200 series the reliability will be excellent. I have owned Rega and had a P3-24 and enjoyed it especially after the Groove Tracer upgrades. Regas run slightly fast but add to their PRAT. The biggest problem I had with the Rega was pitch stability, which I could hear with piano. I also owned a Technics 1200 (Original) and it wasn’t bad, the speed was spot on. I currently own a VPI Classic 1, which I love and it’s speed and powerful motor is spot on and there is no need to use a SDS, but you do have to do maintenance on it yearly and the Unipivot turntable can sometimes be a bear to set up. The Technics will be spot on for speed stability and it has a heavy platter and bass should be excellent, just like the VPI. The Rega RP8 seems to be an excellent table, but using those rings to adjust VTF is not something that I want to go back to. Looking at some of the better tables are coming with detachable headshells, like the Technics. I think you are going to be very happy with this. I think people get caught up into to thinking because of the looks that this is a DJ table and yes they can use it, but Technics is clearly going for the Audiophile this time around and actually they were trying to do it with the original, but because of the low price of the original, the DJs caught on and used it and the Audiophiles never excepted it. |
@cleeds It sounds like you're talking about different tonearm. Could you explain what do you mean by "better geometry" of GST-801? Look here, it's Baerwald and it's dead on the right geometry. I also don't understand what do you mean by "not getting the counterweight in the same plane as the record" ? Look at the counterweight here. I'm using Lustre GST-801 today while my reference is Reed 3p "12 Cocobolo. Lustre GST-801 is a nice tonearm, but i don't use magnetic tracking force. The price for Lustre is much cheaper than for FR-64s for example, but Lustre comes with 2 different counterweights and additional ring weight. It's a solid arm, very well buit (imo). My sample was not a NOS one, that's the problem, some tiny screws are missing, but nothing serious. |
@sid1 I think people get caught up into to thinking because of the looks that this is a DJ table and yes they can use it, but Technics is clearly going for the Audiophile this time around and actually they were trying to do it with the original, but because of the low price of the original, the DJs caught on and used it and the Audiophiles never excepted it. The original without upgrade is a dark sounding turntable, perfect for "disco" clubs as a dj deck, but definitely not an audiophile turntables. Own them for 20 years, upgraded many of them for friends. The problem is that the DJs will NEVER buy a $4000-5000 turntable (keep in mind that you need a pair of them), so the new Technics 1200G is definitely for audiophiles, not for the DJs. This is not the question anymore. I don't know any DJ who will jump on $10 000 pair of new 1200G while the legendary and cult status (in the dj world) 1210mk2 available for $800 for a pair! No single club or bar will replace their old SL1210mk2 with new 1200G for $10000 (pair). So audiophiles should not worry, the 1200G simply not affordable for 99% of the DJs or even Clubs. They will be happy to buy them for $500, but not for $5000. DJs are more obsessed about records than analog gear, especially when it comes to the turntables (old SL1210mk2 is a standard) and cartridges. Technics made new series of turntables for audiophiles and surely those turntables are x10 better than old series. The ONLY part they are sharing is the dusct cover, the rest is completely different. |
chakster Could you explain what do you mean by "better geometry" of GST-801? ... I also don't understand what do you mean by "not getting the counterweight in the same plane as the record" ? Look at the counterweight here.As with many common arms, the Lustre/Acos didn't get the counterweight on the same plane as the record, and that is shown in your link. Pickup arms such as the SME V, the Triplanar, and the Reed 3P that you use get that right. That improves tracking, and helps stabilize VTF under dynamic conditions. My sample was not a NOS one, that's the problem, some tiny screws are missing, but nothing serious.I'd wager that it's the exceptional Lustre/Acos sample today that doesn't have missing screws and parts. It's nice that you don't think that's serious and enjoy the performance of your arm, but I simply don't have patience for things that fall apart, especially pickup arms. Mine started to fail after just a couple of years of light use. The SME V, however, has performed in my system without incident since around '92. I do think the basic Lustre design was imaginative and showed potential, and could have been improved upon if the manufacturer had ever sought to correct its flaws. But that never happened, even as the competition kept improving. |
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rauliruegas
@cleeds is one of some persons in this forum that always stay " behind ! my posts looking how say I’m wrong. Unfortunatelly for all them my knowledge and ignorance levels are way different from all them, so everytime they try to " hit " only achive heavier frustration to their normal heavy frustration.You asked me a question, Raul, so I answered you. I promise you this: I'll never make that mistake again. I hope you have a wonderful day in your special world. |
@cleeds Ah, i see now, but the counterweight on the FR-64 you prefered over the Lustre 801 is also not on the same level as record. Actually all classic tonearms have their counterweight not on the same level as record. Do you think they are all bad for this reason? The most complicated counterweight ever made is the one that comes with Technics EPA-100 and EPA-100 mk2 with Variable Dynamic Damping for the cartridges with different compliance. This is amazing feature! Never seen anything like that on ANY modern tonearm of any price. And it was not released on new Technics tonearms! |
chakster ... the counterweight on the FR-64 you prefered over the Lustre 801 is also not on the same level as record. Actually all classic tonearms have their counterweight not on the same level as record. Do you think they are all bad for this reason?No, of course not. I think it’s usually silly to pick one design element, and then judge an entire product based solely on that. The FR-64 is a good example - it was an extraordinary arm in spite of a few drawbacks, including the counterweight scheme. On the other hand, to praise the GST-801 as "a engineering tonearm lesson for any manufacturer designer" without noting its design deficiencies and manufacturing /QC problems is a bit misguided. The most complicated counterweight ever made is the one that comes with Technics EPA-100 and EPA-100 mk2 with Variable Dynamic Damping for the cartridges with different compliance. This is amazing feature! And it was not released on new Technics tonearms!Yup! And as far as I know, no one has done it since! |
