recommendation for a high end analog system
Well, you have already started to figure out where to start, and as a SOTA owner myself, I would stick with that. As you say, your friend has the same, and his rig sounds better. So…. I believe your arm is basically a Jelco, perhaps a 750, rebranded by Sumiko. That isn’t a bad arm, at least I doubt it is the weakest point. Which points to your cartridge, and/or phono preamp, as the two pieces I would start to look at upgrading first. Or, the cart and arm, if you like your phono pre. No doubt his Triplaner is a better arm, but so is his cartridge, and that is personally where I would start. The 103 seems to have a great following, but it isn’t a Lyra. That was a $5,000 cart (still sell in 1.5-3k range used today). Carts do make a significant difference, it’s up to you to figure out how much you want to spend to get the same/similar sound. I would start with the cart first, then, a toss-up between the arm and preamp, but I think a preamp could make a more immediate impact. |
yes, already optimized impedance and gain. If I wanted to change the tone arm on my SOTA, how would I even do that? I think SOTA has a limited arm choices. Yes, somewhat limited. You can contact them to get a new armboard drilled if required, to a point. For instance, not sure, but I doubt you can fit a 12” arm on your SOTA because of the suspended design. Obviously, easiest to try and match your spindle to pivot distance of your existing armboard if possible. As you say, your friends Triplaner fits his, so you could not go wrong with something similar. But, you may need a new armboard from SOTA. SOTA can be very helpful in that regard, so don’t hesitate to call them and see what your options are. |
@chungjh Don’t get me wrong. My current system sounds very good. But, I realized the difference with my friend’s system was not subtle. I get it. When I purchased my SOTA Sapphire, it had no arm or cart. It has been a slow process (actually not that slow) in adding to my SOTA and realizing significant changes along the way. I first had to choose an arm, kinda got lucky on that, then replace my cartridge, then cables, then my phono preamp just recently. But I can tell you, even with my old cart and pre, it blew me away how much better my SOTA and arm was vs my previous rig from the very start. IMO, the SOTA is a great table and platform in which to build around. You don’t have to worry about over-spending on an arm, a cart, or a phono pre, as the SOTA is more than capable of being the ‘base’ to a very good rig. Beyond the vinyl rig, yea, there is your amp/pre/speakers, but you seem to have some pretty good equipment right now. Regardless if you change those, you want your turntable rig at the highest level you are comfortable spending on it. You will be much happier while playing back an LP with a good turntable rig, regardless of the back end. |
I bought a 1989 SOTA TT with vacuum/Sumiko MMT arm/Dennon 103R retyped with elliptical/sapphire cantilever. ... What is the best way to get a noticeable improvement in my system without breaking the bank... Change your cartridge. Sumiko is nothing special, Denon designed for SUPER HEAVY TONEARMS. Start with a new cartridge if you want to improve the sound, this is where the difference can be huge! |
@chakster is correct in that the Denon shines in heavier tonearms@jasonbourne52 is also on point in that the Denon is known to sound best with a good SUT ( even if you have enough gain ) However this is a good time to see how far you can push the existing setup. It will help of you would describe your process to optimize table and cart setup ( vtf sra azimuth zenith ) etc. So others may chime in with their experiences. May as well vett this gear fully before upgrading ( which you may have done but not yet described ) |
I am embarrassed to admit I never checked the azimuth, zenith... because I don't really know how to do it. I just trusted the person who sold to me. He seemed to be very knowledgeable. The recommended tracking force is 2.5 gm. I am concerned that such high tracking force will gouge out the LP over the years. |
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Tracking force recommended by the cartridge manufacturer in the manual, there is a range, follow the manufacturer’s recommendations. There are cartridges like Ortofon SPU with much higher tracking for e up to 3-4g. 2g tracking force is standard for most of the MC cartridges, for high compliance MM it can be as low as 1.2g Anyway, if you ignore manufacturer’s recommendation then less tracking force can be worse for your records! |
Dear @chungjh : I think that main differences could came from two items: cartridge and phonolinepreamp. The Skala is superior to your Denon that you can change it for a Lyra Kleos and due that I never listened the phonolinepreamps you own but I know very well Spectral then through your electronics you can improve what you are achiving rigth now and one option for overall electronics could comes from Pass that by coincidence you already own at your system’s amp. Maybe could help too to make an internal tonearm rewiring. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
In the past, the hierarchy of importance in the vinyl chain was. table 1st, arm 2nd & cartridge 3rd. Atma-Sphere has stated that with his Triplanar could make a much less expensive cartridge sound better than an expensive cart on a lesser arm. As far as the hierarchy goes, I think the phono preamp is as important as the Tonearm. IMO, I’d rather have a lesser cartridge on a great phono pre than a great cartridge on a lesser phono pre. I don’t know about the 103 except it gets good reviews for being a budget cartridge. But it is no Lyra Skala. Nor is the MMT tonearm a Triplanar. I’d start with the arm and review the phono pre again to see if its up to the task. It may be good but I don’t know. Whatever the case, enjoy the journey |
A Triplanar is about as good as they get. I'd agree with artemus_5 and start there and I believe that would give you some important info on the headroom (or lack thereof) your phono preamp has. You might also consider having your Denon modded. Andy Kim does great work in that department. Also, GET BETTER RECORDS! |
@chungjh I looked at the info on your phono pre, and it seems to be designed for both low and high output carts. Thus, you should not need a SUT. Perhaps I am looking at the wrong model, but there only seems to be one MK5. Typically a SUT is most often used when you use a phono pre designed primarily for high output carts with a low output cartridge. Or, you buy a high output MC cart (when offered) to use on a primarily MM pre. |
As another Sota owner I think bkeske has the right idea. Your arm is a little on the heavy side. Something a little lighter would be nice along with a better cartridge. Rauliruegas is right there. As a Sound Labs owner you will appreciate a cartridge with more detail, the Lyras, Ortofon Windfeld Ti, Soundsmith Sussurro or Voice. As for tonearms, you are limited to 9" arms that will fit that include my favorite The Schroder CB but also the Reed 2G, the Kuma 4 Point 9, The SME IV or V, Origin Live arms and others. The current Tri-Planar arms will not fit without significant modification to the plinth. The Schroder will fit like a glove and is hard to beat at any price. If you call Sota with your turntable's serial number they will send you a new arm board. After that deal with the Phono stage if the sound needs more improvement. |
@mijostyn That Sumiko is a rebadged Jelco. I do not know enough which Jelco it is. If the 750, it has an effective mass of 13.5. I believe the 550 is only 9.5. Models ‘below’ the 550? Neither should be too heavy for the 103. In fact, per the calcs I am looking at, either *should* work. All that said, I think to get better sound, a higher end & better performing cartridge would be my suggestion. And as a Soundsmith owner and fan, of course, that is what I would recommend. But, something like a Hana ML would also be a good choice for a decent price, and I would think, far better than the 103. |
Your friends setup is a lot more money but that is not the critical part it is tweaking your system to work with each other better try a solid state pre for your pass amp even a good used one will blow away a tube pre amp. The impedance mismatch between tube and transistor gear can cause real problems. |
Sound lab speakers are FANTASTIC, so I don't think my weakness is the downstream components. Everyone is giving great advices. Ideally I would upgrade both the cartridge and the tonearm. But changing the tone arm on a SOTA TT is a lot more hassle, with no SOTA dealers around me. So, the cartridge upgrade is probably easiest to pull off not to mention the very high price of a top notch tone arm like Triplanar. |
One option is to buy another system (with a better arm on it) and sell my current system. What do you think? I am thinking that a VPI TT with VPI JMW 3D arms may be a substantial improvement over my Sumiko. Of course, VPI TT don't have the vacuum, but I don't know how much real benefit I am getting with the SOTA vacuum. |
@chungjh I wouldn’t be on scared to change your arm. The biggest thing is getting the pivot to spindle correct with your existing arm board, or get another from SOTA as/if necessary. Then, balancing the new arm with the suspended sub-assembly using the correct amount of lead shot weight. lol, I know that sounds like a lot, but really, it isn’t so hard, and you will quickly understand how the SOTA works by doing this yourself. That is how I learned, by simply doing it. If you need instruction on this set-up, they can probably be found on-line, or, again, I’m sure SOTA would be willing to email you a copy. |
@chungh I hgave owned the Sota vacuum and am very familiar with the TT and the Sumiko arm. In my view before you look at cartridges, you will get a better result if you do the following - Step 1 - get the Sota brought up to current spec - Sota will do this - their service is excellent Step 2 - upgrade your tonearm - buy the best you can afford. Sota can provide either blank or predrilled amrboards. You will have to choose a 9-10 1/2 " arm to fit the Sofa - Sota can confirm what will fit. These first steps should improve your system markedly and set you up for a very long time. Then Step 3 - you can start looking at cartridges down the road knowing you will get the best out of them with the updated turntable and tonearm. A great arm with a modest but good cartridge will always sound fundamentally better than an expensive cartridge on a cheap arm. |
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You don’t need any lubricants for any records, this is snakeoil! The market is crazy crazy for useless stuff. Even 40 y.o. used records are fine, all you need is decent stylus profile like MicroRidge if you want the lowest possible record wear factor and the longest life-span of the stylus itself (2000-3000hrs). You have to avoid any liquid stylus cleaning if you don't want your stylus tip fell-off one day. |
@chungjh @bkesk, What tonearm and cartridge are you using on your SOTA When I bought my table, I wanted to use a tone arm that fit the board that came with it, as it is a SOTA premium arm board. It had a 214mm pivot to spindle cut-out. Thus, I finally picked a new Jelco TK850S MKII. A very good arm for the money, but unfortunately hard to find now as Jelco is out of business. It cost about $1,300 if I remember correctly. Easy to install, and a simple arm to use. My cartridge is a Soundsmith Zephyr MKIII ES. I love my Soundsmith. It is a hi output (2.4 mV) low compliance (10) MI design, and think I would have to spend significantly more on an MC cart to match it. So, for both, it was about $2,800. To be honest, after getting back into vinyl after a 35+ year hiatus, never thought I would spend that much on a turntable rig, but believe me, it has been worth it, and really pretty inexpensive when you look at other potential combos. If I were you, I would probably look at a Origin Live arm. I’ve heard great things about those arms, and it would not break the bank. I also looked at VPI tables when I made the jump, but VPI’s have their own issues too, and I backed away from them. Bottom line, I am very happy I chose the SOTA. I’m now a big fan of their overall design. It may be my last table, and has been mentioned, you can send it to SOTA to have a partial or complete overhaul and update in the future to bring it up to current specs. |
Look into older MM cartridges. You may be surprised as to how close they can come to MC cartridges. Try the older Pickering or Stanton MM cartridges. If you are looking for a fuller sound they may have what you are looking for and may be surprising close to what you hear in the Lyra, for a lot less money. Its not going to be a Lyra but MM cartridges have their own virtues. |
Look into older MM cartridges. You may be surprised as to how close they can come to MC cartridges. Try the older Pickering or Stanton MM cartridges. If you are looking for a fuller sound they may have what you are looking for and may be surprising close to what you hear in the Lyra, for a lot less money. Its not going to be a Lyra but MM cartridges have their own virtues. agree wholeheartedly w this - love my timeless grace f9's and with peter l's modern shibata tips they give both the luscious warmth and the 'see-thru' resolution and brilliance so valued nowadays |
@chungjh @bkeske, How old is your SOTA? Dit you get it refurbished? It is a 1980's Sapphire, non-vacuum, Series III. Actually purchased it off a gentleman here on Audiogon, it was his original table. He then bought the Star (vacuum), and finally decided to sell the Sapphire. No, not refurbished, but eventually want to get that done, at a minimum install a new and up-to-date motor, but while doing that, I would probably have the whole thing looked-over, springs replaced (regardless) etc. Right now, I'm just enjoying it every day, and it would be hard to part with it during a refurb right now. But will do it.....some day.... |
Not yet mentioned: the Eclipse motor upgrade from SOTA. Will make a huge improvement even against the limiting background of what you already are using. Go to their website and read about it. Bonus: if you send your unit to SOTA for Eclipse upgrade, you can also have them fit a new arm board to suit your new tonearm, whatever that may be. I don’t presently own a SOTA, but I did own and use a Star Sapphire III for about a decade. Based on that sonic signature, I would not have a SOTA without the Eclipse. You won’t appreciate what I’m saying until you experience it for yourself. |
Late to the party here, and I agree with the general thrust that your table is capable of delivering far better results than you're getting out of it with the arm and cartridge you presently have. The 103 is a good cartridge, but not a great one and the Sumiko arm is in the same class. Your friend's arm and cart are truly major league. Further, @mijostyn and @bkeske are correct. I have a 1984 Sapphire purchased new off the dealer floor and have found it to be a very easy table to work on that is superbly reliable. I did have it updated by Sota about 10 years ago with a Series V platter, new springs and composite armboard to fit a Graham Phantom. I'd looked at the TriPlanar and even spoke to Tri Ma about a Series III he'd posted here. I'd also considered SME, Reed, Kuzma, JMW and even attempted a rebuild of my original Magnepan Unitrac 1 that didn't work out. For my needs, the Graham was the best compromise. I'd sold SME for a few years and really liked them, but strongly preferred VTA on-the-fly. The JMW and TriPlanar wouldn't fit without modification, and I frankly felt the JMW was not made to a standard I found acceptable. The 9" sized Graham, SME, Reed and Kuzma are all essentially drop-in replacements if you purchase a new armboard from Sota for the tonearm you choose. Sota can guide you very effectively there and they've been doing it for a long time. For a cartridge, there are dozens of higher performance choices that a better arm can really take advantage of. I personally have a preference for Dynavector, and have also experienced stellar results with Ortofon, Koetsu and Lyra. Because there are so many alternatives, the best thing you can do is be patient and research what's available. Once you feel comfortable with your knowledge base, pick a budget and build in a bit of wiggle room. World-class arms can often be had for ~$2K second-hand and half that for a brand-new superior cartridge. As some have mentioned, you can also look into a more capable pre if you wish. No matter what you do, just remember that you are into this to please yourself and time is your friend in that quest. Keep that in mind and you'll do fine. Happy listening! |
Surprised that a Reed will fit and not a Triplanar, since the Reed is basically a copy of the TP, in terms of the VTA adjuster which affects the arm geometry as regards mounting. Unless you refer to a 10.5-inch Reed. Don't know whether Tri can supply a 10.5-inch option for the TP, but its worth asking if the OP wants to spend that much. The Technics SP10 turntables, with their square, raised escutcheon surrounding the platter, is also a problem for my standard 9-inch TP, but no problem for my 10.5-inch Reed. I vote again for the Eclipse motor and motor controller/speed control upgrade, for what it's worth. |
Triplanar will fit on a Sota Sapphire - https://www.stereophile.com/tonearms/the_tri-planar_tonearm/index.html Also no problem Cosmos or Millennia either. In the old days Wheaton used to supply precut armboards for Sota’s.. All you need to do is order a blank armboard. mark it up and get a machine shop to cut it for you if you cant do it yourself. |
