recommendation for a high end analog system

At the time I purchased my Graham, it was a great deal less costly than they are now.  I'm not sure I'd go that way now given the now-doubled investment.

I'd started with the DV 17D3, having moved up from an antique 23RS MR that was originally on my Magnepan.  It was not a good match with the Graham (too light), so went with a XX2 MK II and have been very happy with it.

@lewm @dover 

When I went through this project 10+ years ago, I'd contacted Kirk at Sota to get some advice before I started narrowing down my choices.  He'd mentioned that the TriPlanar was rather tricky to set up on the Sota and that the Reed was a more forgiving design in that respect. 

Because I live in a rural area with limited audition and inspection opportunities, I took him at his word. Tricky set-up didn't bother me, but my installation requires pretty much a once-and-done to be useful.  Pulling the table out and adjusting was not desirable.  So I shelved the TriPlanar.  A personal fit as opposed to a mechanical fit.  My time last evening was limited and I did not communicate that well.  Apologies.

I decided to stick with 9" arms and found that a 9" Reed was a unicorn at the time.  No one had one that I could find, new or used.  I didn't like the nearest retailer for the Kuzma, so leveraged an old contact for a Graham.  The table had already been upgraded, so I called Kirk again and had him make up a pre-balanced hybrid aluminum / composite armboard for it.  After some very minor adjustment to get things just so, the Graham fit perfectly and has maintained that fit ever since.  I kept my old bucket of Sota balance shot for nostalgia's sake.

Hope this clears things up.

FWIW, Dover is correct; the Triplanar does fit fine. I now recall that I had my Triplanar mounted on my Star Sapphire once upon a time. The only issue is in the vertical direction wrt the max extension of the VTA adjustment and the height of the platter or rather the sunken depth of the arm board. Anyway you’ve made your choice.

My recommendation was to go for the Eclipse system as biggest bang for the buck.

I see that there is a Triplanar II upgraded to VI on audiogon. TP VI is supposed to have effective mass of only around 11 gm. With my Denon 103R retipped with Sapphire cantilever, I probably need a higher mass. I can increase the effective mass with a head shell weight. Where does one get such a thing (other than taping pennies)?

Yes, 11g is the standard quoted effective mass for the 9-inch Triplanar, regardless of the "version" as indicated by Roman numerals.  And yes, that is probably not the best choice in terms of effective mass for the Denon 103R, but it is probably a good choice for any of several other modern LOMC cartridges that have higher compliance.  You could add any 5g weight at or near the headshell of the TP and be in good range for the 103R.  Double-sided carpet tape would do the job as adhesive. Thought you had decided on a Graham.

No, haven’t decided on the tonearm yet. Is there a more professional way of increasing the tonearm/head shell weight than using a tape?

I meant get a 5g weight and use the double-sided tape to affix it to the headshell.  You can use any sort of flat disc that weighs 3-7g.  You would need an accurate scale to weigh the chosen object.  Or ask Tri Mai, the maker of the Triplanar.  Maybe he has a more "professional" attachment for increasing effective mass of the Triplanar. I think a US nickel (5 cents) weighs 5g. If not a nickel then some other common US coin does weigh 5g. There are innumerable options for adding weight.  You can also wrap the arm wand in tape, which also reduces resonance. Etc. Don't forget also that the weight of the cartridge itself adds to effective mass, and the Denon is fairly hefty.  Aftermarket mods to the Denon often also increase its weight (see Zu and a few others); you could look into one of those.  (But I personally would not spend more money on the Denon.) Also, use heavy screws (and nuts if needed) to mount the Denon; that also adds to effective mass.

SoundSmith sells sets of headshell screws with different weights for this purpose.  The bad news is that the screws are quite pricey, something like $40 for a set of four different weights:

https://sound-smith.com/accessories/ez-mount-cartridge-screws

You can get headshell spacers/weights on eBay.

Google "Pats Audio Turntable Headshell Weight - 3 grams" from Scottsdale Arizona.

Thanks gents for the info on the headshell weight. I talked to Triplanar and he told me that the TP tonearm on AG is actually MK3, not updated MK6. It is from 1997. Do you think it is worth it for about $3200? It can be upgraded to MK7 for $1600.

Thanks gents for the info on the headshell weight. I talked to Triplanar and he told me that the TP tonearm on AG is actually MK3, not updated MK6. It is from 1997. Do you think it is worth it for about $3200? It can be upgraded to MK7 for $1600.

We use Ortofon Concorde style.  So easy to swap carts.  Unscrew tonearm bit, remove, lightly push on new headshells,...few slight adjustments to counterweight  and tracking force, and back in business. 
   I’m under tracking force weight as what’s in the specs for the cartridge.     When recording LPs’, usually add an extra 1/2 or 1 gram to record, depending on the sound. Will play some songs to hear, before I record. 

$3200!!! Seems very high to me, but maybe that proves I am a troglodyte.  Especially in light of the added $1600 cost to upgrade it further.  Mine is about that old. I was actually at Herb Papier's house having mine upgraded to Mk7, or whatever was the final version made by Herb, when Tri was visiting with Herb to learn how to manufacture the tonearm. (Herb was the designer and inventor of the tonearm, and he made the whole thing himself in his basement workshop in Wheaton, MD. By that time he was farming out the manufacture of some of the individual parts, but he alone did the quality control and assembly.)  Since taking over, Tri has made some nice further upgrades to the arm in terms of parts quality and function.  Maybe if you can be patient, a later version will show up on the market for similar cost.   

@lewm 

Patience is not my strongest suit, but you are right. When I visited you a couple of years ago, you had the most amazing set of TTs that I have ever seen. A true audiophile.

I looked at the tonearm angle more carefully and it is not 0 degree bit maybe rising 1 degree up to the platter. It should be 0 degrees, no?

+1 @dover post
Send the TT to SOTA to refurbish with the Eclipse motor.
Upgrade the tone arm. Ask SOTA for a recommendation.
Then look for a new cartridge. Hana is nice and good price.
You are looking at about $5-10k+.
And a lot of work.
OR
Sell it all and, for the price of a good tone arm, buy a new Technics 1200G! Technics hit a home run with this TT and arm. Check out the reviews.

I just realized that with Triplanar, I can't close the lid due to the counterweight sticking out. There is a 10 yr old SME V on sale for $2999? What do you think? I talked to SOTA and they say SMEs were one of the most popular tonearms with SOTA. But, SME no longer sells the tonearm alone.

@lewm 

I get your point about upgrading the innards of my SOTA and I am going to do that. Since it is best to upgrade the table and install an arm by SOTA at the same time, I am focusing on the arm. SOTA also likes Kazuma and Origin Alive.

@chungjh

You can get the SME V serviced by SME.
If you got the Sota brought up to date and the SME V serviced, you will end up with a great turntable/arm combo that should last you a lifetime and with full service records, be very saleable if you decide to sell later. 

@chungjh  👍🏼 Good to see you are going ‘all in’ on the SOTA. With the changes you are looking to make, you are well on your way to having a much better performing rig, and better sounding music. Then, a big decision on a new cart. And might want to reconsider your existing phono pre as well.

Origin Live Illustrious II or higher would give you the more live sound with plenty of detail. After owning several different arms, I was able to find a used OLI II for under $900. It is a simple to setup arm and I’ve owned a couple different OL Silver II arms with good TT’s, along with a couple even better sounding arms than the Silver II. I used to have a Maplenoll Ariadne TT/arm which was excellent sounding. The Illustrious is a very good sounding arm that is a significant upgrade in all ways from what I had before. This new combo is the first one to dethrone the Maplenoll in SQ--much more dynamic and better clarity. I own a highly modified Lenco TT with much of Jean Nantais’ upgrades and mods. This is now a potent combination of superior dynamics, deep bass with definition, and beautiful, clear mids and highs--that is easy to use. I have a used Charisma Reference II cartridge that I bought for under $800 used slightly. I also have a Whest 3.0 RDT SE phono pre bought used for about $2350--dead quiet and very resolving without edge. I have a used TRL DUDE preamp which is absolutely awesome in all ways that I just got retuned with NOS tubes from Andy’s Vintage Tubes and the DUDE is now much livelier than it has ever been and the bass now has great texture--I bought it used and am the third owner. I now have a super DUDE with a couple mods I performed on it a couple years ago and the NOS tubes--much better sounding than the original.

Bob

I just recently upgraded my vinyl setup with a Technics SL-1200G with a Clearaudio Charisma MM cart, going into a Herron Audio VTPH2a phono stage and a Herron Audio VTSP-360 line stage; never knew vinyl could sound like that before!!! 

How is the tonearm that comes with 1200G?

As you see, for almost the price on the old used SME V you can get a 1200G.
However, if you want to go all in with the SOTA, get the SME V and have SOTA rebuilt the TT. Mostly, you will then have a rig that may sound more grounded then the Technics but not necessarily better.
And there are several recommended upgrades that should be done on the 1200G that will add about $1000 to the price.
Mostly, with the SOTA and SME, you will have a much more substantial rig and may have the most pride of ownership.

@mglik 

A lot of people are raving about 1200G. How long have had it and how durable is it?

@dover , The Tri Planar is a great arm. Donna specifically told me that the current Tri Planar will not fit without cutting away part of the plinth cover. I was seriously considering it.
@lewm, although SOTA has not mounted one yet I believe the Reed 2G will fit. It was another arm I was considering. I got a dimensional drawing of the 2G and it will fit but it will require a light tonearm board. In the end I did not go for it because of the way the tonearm cable attaches to the arm. You would have to cut a notch in the dust cover to bring the cable out on top of the plinth. It does not make for a neat installation. The Schroder and Origin Live arms have cables that exit under the tonearm board which makes for a much neater installation and does not interfere with the dust cover.  I went with the CB because it meet all of my primary criteria in a very elegant way. It has one wire from cartridge to RCAs without any connections, it is neutral balance so VTF does not change with elevation, The vertical bearing is at the level of the record minimizing warp wow, it has frictionless anti skating and the bearings are top notch.
The new Cosmos comes with the Eclipse motor system which I will report on once I have the table which I put a $4K deposit on 3 MONTHS AGO.
bkeske, I also have a high output Soundsmith I am dying to hear.
chungjh, you really do not want to consider a different turntable. Once you are use to the bullet proof performance of the Sota and it's top notch isolation you will be unhappy with most other turntables including all of the VPIs. The Sota may not be the fanciest looking table out there but darn does it work well. 

@mijostyn,

I have to agree that SOTA is bullet proof. My friend's system that I was raving about at the beginning has a 30 yr SOTA.

The only thing with TP with SOTA is that the counter weight sticks out and the dustcover won't close while playing.

@mijostyn

bkeske, I also have a high output Soundsmith I am dying to hear.

I bought the high output Zephyr before I got my phono pre (when setting up my Sapphire for the first time) that I know can drive a low output cart. I love my Zephyr, but am really considering the MIMC Lo version of the Zephyr now. Or perhaps step-up on the Soundsmith line with one of Peter’s other Lo output offerings.

chungjh, you really do not want to consider a different turntable. Once you are use to the bullet proof performance of the Sota and it’s top notch isolation you will be unhappy with most other turntables including all of the VPIs. The Sota may not be the fanciest looking table out there but darn does it work well.

I agree whole heartedly

A lot of people are raving about 1200G. How long have had it and how durable is it?

Where you’ve been? You must be kidding, are you from another planet or what? Technics made killer turntables since the late 60’s. Technics motor used at Neumann cutting lathe. SP10 mk2 and mk3 are the best. Technics will last forever, this is one of the most durable turntables of all time. Their new G or GR are great for the money when someone looking for plug and play turntable (without upgrades). The tonearm is great! 

Looking for something better? The SP10R is the answer. Best Technics tonearm? The EPA-100 mk2 is the answer. 

To be clear, I am not necessarily pushing for the Triplanar over all the other very good tonearms also mentioned by others.  There is not a loser among them.  For me, not being able to close the cover (a potential issue with the Triplanar/SOTA combo, apparently) would be a non-issue, since the first thing I do with tt covers is to store them out of sight in my basement.  Also, I would not advocate for a SOTA without the Eclipse motor and motor control upgrade. this is based on my ~10 year experience with my Star Sapphire III.  It was only after selling it and replacing it at that time with a Nottingham Analog Hyperspace and a Walker Audio Precision Motor Controller that I came to appreciate that the SSIII suffered a bit from speed instability audible on decay of piano tones. The Eclipse option should raise the SOTA to a level of speed stability way above that of my old Hyperspace/Walker combo. Enough said.

@lewm 

Don't you have the Technics SP10 MK3? How does it compare with MK2 or 1200GAE? There is a big price differential.

It was after living with the Nottingham that I became interested in first idler-drive turntables and then direct-drive.  After purchasing both a Garrard 301 chassis and an NOS Lenco L75, and thinking for a bit, I decided to go with the Lenco, sell the Garrard as is.  I eventually ended up with a highly modified L75 in a slate plinth.  Along the way, I picked up a Denon DP80, just because I had a longstanding interest in it and the price was right.  The DP80 had a thorough going over by Bill Thalmann and is also in a slate plinth. And from there I just went on and on with vintage direct drive turntables, buying but not selling. I owned two Mk2s before acquiring the Mk3.  (I did sell both Mk2s.) Suffice to say Mk2 is good, not as good IMO as the DP80, and the Mk3 is better than all of them.  I never heard a GAE in my own system, so I can have no opinion.  I go back and forth between the Mk3 and Kenwood L07D, and I like aspects of both.  The difference is slight.  The DP80 has the Triplanar mounted with a B&O MMC1, which drives my modified Silvaweld SWH550 MM phono stage.  I love that rig from cartridge through phono stage.

@lewm , no argument from me. However it is not the duct cover that the Tri Planar in interfering with, it is the plinth cover. Because the Tri Planar drops down in the rear and that the Sota's tonearm board is recessed the counter weight runs into the cover. What people think is the plinth on the Sota is just a cover. The "plinth" is really suspended inside from the base plate. You could make the Tri Planar fit by cutting away that part of the cover that would be behind it but Sota will not do that themselves because they think that is cosmetically unacceptable. You could do it yourself. My own thinking was that the Schroder fits perfectly and is on par with the Tri Planar so why start chopping things up especially since this may not be my last turntable. I still have my eye very much on the Dohmann with a Schroder LT.

bkeske, When I was getting the "Voice" I asked Peter what the difference between the "Voice" and the Sussurro (a low output version of the "Voice") was. His reply was "larger coils in the Voice." Since the coils are fixed and there is no reduction in moving mass with smaller coils my next question was "then why is the Sussurro $2K more expensive?" He said," market economics." I also asked "then why wouldn't the "Voice" be a better cartridge having a much lower signal to noise ratio." His reply, "It is." He said that he only makes low output cartridges because they are more profitable and people want to use their fancy, expensive high gain phono stages. They are stuck on thinking low output cartridges sound better. Then I got the Strain gage pitch. Which I would like to hear. I thing the Hyperion is too expensive to make to justify a high output version. People who buy high output cartridges will not spend $7K on a cartridge.

@mijostyn

bkeske, When I was getting the "Voice" I asked Peter what the difference between the "Voice" and the Sussurro (a low output version of the "Voice") was. His reply was "larger coils in the Voice." Since the coils are fixed and there is no reduction in moving mass with smaller coils my next question was "then why is the Sussurro $2K more expensive?" He said," market economics." I also asked "then why wouldn’t the "Voice" be a better cartridge having a much lower signal to noise ratio." His reply, "It is." He said that he only makes low output cartridges because they are more profitable and people want to use their fancy, expensive high gain phono stages. They are stuck on thinking low output cartridges sound better. Then I got the Strain gage pitch. Which I would like to hear. I thing the Hyperion is too expensive to make to justify a high output version. People who buy high output cartridges will not spend $7K on a cartridge.

Yep, I’ve heard Peter say the same/similar. That’s why I think the Lo MIMC Zephyr is probably a great deal for $2K new. That is the one I keep leaning towards for a Lo cart. I’ve just heard that my Hagerman Trumpet really performs best with Lo carts, albeit it sounds great with my Zephyr. And really, that is my major interest; getting the most out of my Trumpet.

The Strain Gauge is a whole nuther  animal. I would love to hear it as well. Pretty amazing in theory really.

As far as raising a tone arm above the ‘plinth’/cover, I have a Jelco TK-850 MKII, and have thought about adding a VTA on the fly adjustment mechanism. Problem is it would hit against the wood ‘plinth’/cover. But, you can find a Jelco 1/4” spacer and add it to the Jelco mount to raise it up, and I’ve heard that works. I’m sure you could do the same for other arms.

I do not use the/a SOTA dust cover. When I do cover it, I have a custom soft cloth cover I use. To be honest, the cover isn’t on much. I play albums most every day.

@dorkwad  when you say...

“I used to have a Maplenoll Ariadne TT/arm which was excellent sounding. The Illustrious is a very good sounding arm that is a significant upgrade in all ways from what I had before.”

In this regard you put an OL Illustrious on the Maplenol? What to your ears did it improve, and be how much?

@ianderson,

The Maplenoll was very quiet, smooth, excellent bass, and most everything sounded beautiful on it.  After reading my post again, my comments on the OL Illustrious II had to do mostly with arms I've had since the 'Noll.  The OL Illustrious II Is more detailed, dynamic, with  more grunt in the bass.  I never put a different arm on the 'Noll.  The only real issue I had with the 'Noll was the delivery of the air to the arm.  It took very little air to move the turntable but much more to keep the arm working correctly.  Twice I had something between the pump and the TT disconnect because of the high pressure pump.  The TT would keep spinning, but the arm would freeze and thus become very rigid.  The cantilever's on two different cartridges snapped from the pressure of the stylus being stuck in the groove.  Very expensive with good cartridges.  A significant portion of the better sound of the OL over the 'Noll is because of the modded Lenco.  

My original post was to be mostly a praise for the OL Illustrious II arm in my system.  The simplicity of its use is also very appreciated since using the Trans-Fi Terminator arm along with the Pete Riggle Woody--both very fine sounding arms.  The OL Illustrious II is just better at everything sound wise.  It might be a 15-20% improvement overall.  I now have a used Walker Precision Motor Controller, but have yet to install the IEC in the back of my Lenco build to actually use it.  From what I've read from others who have, it should make a noticeable improvement in the sound along with keeping the speed perfect, and having a toggle switch to change the phase available.  

My apologies for all this info on the OP's thread.

Bob

bkeske, the beauty of the Sota dust cover is that it is attached to the plinth cover which is connected to the chassis. The sub chassis which holds the platter and tonearm is hanging from the chassis with 4 springs tuned to 3 Hz. Nothing that happens above 3 Hz gets to the sub chassis and that includes everything that is happening to the cover and dust cover including banging it with a hammer. Try it, really! Using the dust cover during play is like giving your cartridge hearing protection. It also keeps the record's exposure to dust and pollution limited and it is also brilliantly simple to use. I had this discussion with Mark Dohmann and he totally agrees. He is or has designed an isolated dust cover for his Helix tables to use during play. 

So, do yourself a favor and order a dust cover from Sota!

How much difference is there between Origin Live MK4 and Conqueror? The price differential is not that great. There are SME V's on sale but they seem much more expensive. Any thoughts?

@Chungji,

As has been mentioned, your biggest issue is a cart and arm mass mismatch. Start there and solve that first...then re-assess. 

Then there is the stylus itself. The Denon 103r is a great conical...it's gutsy but it will not give you the detail of a great microline.

Lastly it's about dialing the cart in.

@sandthemall, I retipped the 103r with a Shibata asymmetrical tip and sapphire cantilever and changed the epoxy body to solid aluminum. So, I think the cartridge is decent, IMO. The current arm Sumiko MMT (really Jelco) has an effective mass of 20 gm; which fits with 103r (likes a tone arm on the heavier side as you know).

Mijo, I now understand what you mean by a plinth “cover” wrt the SOTA turntables, but the term is unnecessarily confusing. It’s inherently part of the plinth. Yes, the armboard is part of the sprung substructure so it rides a bit lower than the stationary part of the upper plinth. Thus the deck can foul the counterweight especially of well designed tonearms that place the CW in the plane of the LP surface. I had that issue w the TP on my SSIII, but was able to resolve it.

FWIW, having owned and used both, I’d say the Phoenix Eng stuff ( now available as Eclipse for SOTA) does a better job w Lenco motor than the Walker, which does not offer the benefit of tachometer feedback and has a much lower power output. The Walker is way better than nothing, however, especially w the very low power consumption Notts motor.

Listen to jazz. 

@mijostyn,

Keeping the dust cover on while playing means no TP arm for SOTA. It is not that easy to find a tonearm with an easy VTA control whether on the fly or not. I was interested in Origin Live, but the VTA control is not easy.

So lose the dust cover. Mijostyn is in the minority who believe that the dust cover does more good than harm. I wouldn’t let the dust cover control my choice of tonearm. But better yet, make up your own mind based on listening. You might end up agreeing with mijostyn.

i let my equipment rack drive all my equipment choices... 🤪🤪🤪🤪

What is it that you most like about your friends set-up - what part of his audio chain - ie amp? phono? cartridge?
To add my tuppence worth of advice have you considered an MM cartridge like the Cartridgeman Music Maker or an offering by Soundsmith? in terms of drive, body and oomph they do something far more visceral than any MC out there - very satisfying. I have a Pickering XSV4000 MM that really changed my perception of MM's - just as enjoyable as my MC's

SOTA has a magnetic levitation platter. Anyone know if this makes a significant difference in SQ?

 I have a Pickering XSV4000 MM that really changed my perception of MM's - just as enjoyable as my MC's

Absolutely, for MC lovers Pickering even made a low impedance (low output) version of his top MM - XLZ/7500 and this MM cartridge must be connected to MC input, headamp, SUT ... (or to MM input with high gain). The tip is also improved Stereohedron mkII version. Pickering top models like series 4000, 4500, 5000, 7500 are exceptional MM. Even cheap XSV/3000 is a good working horse.