Putting together turntable rig

That's the best possible outcome. Congratulations .

@greenhorn20  good to hear. I’m considering woodpecker/blackbird.. or a SME 15A

@eric5kim I’m very happy and glad that I made the move. Collected 175 records since then. Got me a Elma ultrasonic cleaner to get the most out of the records. It’s amazing when the record is well pressed and in M or NM condition that they play very quite. At the moment I have stopped looking/lusting over other equipment, just collecting records and enjoying the music. That’s a good sign!

OP: how is your TT journey going? 

Hi, 

just want to say again thanks and give some feedback. It’s ten days now since I have my TT setup. At first I wanted to play a DAC and TT within the same price range head to head against each other, but decided then against it. I had the small and big Rockna’s for a week to play with, but the analog components weren’t in stock. The Rockna’s were very impressive, but my heart was already set on a TT. As I mentioned in my first post I enjoy listening to my digital chain, although I am aware that the DAC is the weakest link in my digital setup. With the TT I have now a second and different approach to music which I like.

I decided to go with:

- Dr. Feickert Woodpecker in Zebrano, black Alu and the platter upgrade 

- Origin Live Conqueror 12” with inner cable in silver and outer in copper 

- Grado Ref.3 cartridge 

- Rike Natalija MM/MC 3 it’s a german Brand, made in Germany and tube based 

Of course it’s new now and I’am exited, but I really do love it. Very musical and engaging. The stage, separation, airiness and detail is stunning. The dealer as the manufacturer told me, that the Rike needs quite long to burn in, 200 hours, because of the capacitors which are used. Right now I have about 80 hours.

Over the last weeks I bought some records. 50 at the moment and it’s a mixture from old fist press and high quality new ones. That’s my base to start with. From now on I try to get every month at least 4 new records. 

As for now I’am really happy that I decided to go with the TT.

Always start with a great table and tonearm and cartridge and then you can add a good phono stage later if you do not have the money at that time.

A New Stylus will sing with a Newly Cleaned but undamaged Vinyl. Avoid the Trauma of hearing the Stylus plough through all those years of collecting contamination from the other environments lived in.

This is incorrect. Used vintage vinyl sounds better with advanced stylus profile, because this type of stylus (MicroRidge, LineContact etc) can reach previously untouched part of the groove! While conical or elliptical rides previously worn part of the groove, because 90% of used vinyl on the market played with cheap conical or elliptical styli on average hi-fi 30-40 years ago.

For used vinyl: advanced stylus profile is a must! Huge upgrade. Most of my collection is original vinyl from the 70’s. 

I'm with pindac on 'Newly Cleaned'. I use ultrasound, and it's by far the best way. IMO

Excellent news on the acquisition of the Vinyl LP's.
With the History that is unknown as speculated by yourself.
Commencing on the practicing in the Art of Record Care will be a very valuable prepation for your purchases.

A New Stylus will sing with a Newly Cleaned but undamaged Vinyl.
Avoid the Trauma of hearing the Stylus plough through all those years of collecting contamination from the other environments lived in.      

Thanks to you all for the additional informations, as always, it’s appreciated! I‘ll have a look at links as well.

In regards of building a TT, I‘am not seeing this happening, as I have not enough time to start a project like this. Although I love my job, I‘am equally happy to spend not more time as necessary in the workshop.

In the meantime I‘ll bought some records. It‘s really amazing, these are 40-60 years old originals. Where they have already ready been, how many households/hands? Contemporary witnesses.

If you are willing to DIY, you can get some pretty impressive results. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 This was DIY with a few basic parts (motor, bearing, platter) from Chris Brady's Teres Audio https://www.teresaudio.com/ They are now out of production but this will give you some idea just how good you can do. These things are out there, and just as important this shows you can pretty much build your own from more or less off the shelf parts. The bearing and platter from an otherwise done for table, for example, can be combined with a motor and DIY plinth or table into a pretty darn good turntable.  

If you want to try something like this my old Teres motor is just sitting in the shop, kept as backup but the Verus motor is so bullet-proof.... Teres punches way above its weight. 

Greenhorn;

I just did what you’re thinking about 

Lots of advice from everyone
And lots of advice all over the place 
my suggestion is listen to the best vinyl system( AXPONA?) 
Then you know what can be done 

Affordable Vinyl Series 

I’m attaching a link ( 2nd) for a three part review from the Audio Beatnick 
go to bottom of page and you can see links for 1-3 

This guy really explained the “ affordable vinyl” thing really well

Read it and be enlightened!!!

Jeff

https://theaudiobeatnik.com/the-affordable-vinyl-project-part-two-reviewing-a-3500-system/

Greenhorn
                 With your Skill Set, I can see the allure of the Vinly Front End,
the importance of the Mechanical Interfaces and the accuracy of the TT as a whole must really capture your thoughts and be very compatible with your thought processes used with your career.

Please don't take the following as a advice to your inquiry, it is a description of how I progressed in Working with Vinyl in my System.
 
The EE and Engineer I entrust my projects with TT's to, today has a history with TT's as a Source for almost 50 Years.
The Valve Amp' EE Designer / Builder I entrust my projects to, has today, over 40 Years experience as Designer / Builder.  
The EE/ Engineers own Career. has been one where they were trained in Metal Machining and Electronics to the very highest of standards, and was a lead Engineer in projects that are very highly regarded.

Drawing on my own experience as a person who does not have the Skills referred to above.
My ( I slipped, a little advice follows )suggestion is to extend your investigation, and have a look into the Turntables that have got a popularity for having undergone various Modifications, where the works when done correctly have produced a TT that can be viewed as a competitor to a Modern TT.
My gut feeling is that this might be a undertaking that stimulates a interest, and a 'what if' curiosity. 

I myself both in the past and remaining to date,  are only owning and using TT's from the philosophy that there are improvements that can created with a Vintage TT.

For the record I have only ever sold one TT, I still own all my purchased TT's and Tonearms from across many years.
Even the unloved Belt Drive is still used periodically to keep my ear in to the Belt Drive Sound, it would sell quickly and could be sold on for a attractive Sum. 

I moved on from a much enjoyed 'Up to Date' Modern Design Belt Drive TT in the 90's to a very basic Model Garrard 401, which is where the Investigations into 401 Modifications started.

My owned 401, ended up as a Non Standard Model, and remains in use today with another owner/friend, who is able to use a Wide Variety of TT's, the 401 is their preferrence.
The 401 is now  worked on with further modifications whilst in New  Ownership, and is now able to be used with a few different Plinths Designs and a Dedicated Stand lone Speed Control being in use from a recent report, the 401 is the 'go to' TT in this system.

I moved on from the Idler Drive Garrard 401 to Idler Drive Lenco GL 75's and this is a great place to learn a lot.
Many of the designs I have in my mind today come from learing obout the GL 75.
The Options to Modify these are vast and there is a lot of Overhaul and Complete Redesign Projects documented, that can be reviewed.
I have followed the Lenco for many years and still follow it.
I have met with many Lenco enthusiasts at events and have heard remarkable TT's as a result of works being done with them.
My 'go to' Idler Drive TT today is a PTP Solid 9 which is a GL 75 redesign.

My 'main choice' of TT today are Direct Drives, my 'go to' DD is a
SP10 MkII, that has been overhauled and Modified by the EE/Engineer referred to earlier, their skill set is second to none, their Long Term Passion for all things Vinyl combined with their long career has brought together a great marriage for Man and TT.
The SP10 MkII is their TT of choice, and the upgrade path for this TT, has been evolving and worked for on this Model for a very long period of time.
There are ongoing designs, that I have been encouraging, that are in the pipeline of being carried out, to further the Modifications to the TT.

I also have Denon DP-80's , Sony TTS 8000's ( Undergoing a Modification and Overhaul ) and Aurex SR-510's
The DP-80 and Sony TTS-8000 are very well known in the HiFi communities. 
All the owned DD TT's are on a list to undergo a overhaul. 

A search can find the Aurex at a very fair price and for the Money the TT is very nice as a Base Model, if one eventually ends up on the Overhaul/Modification Bench, who knows where it can go to in terms of performance.

The not so referred to DD TT, is the Aurex SR-510.
This DD TT only become a TT of Interest, as a result of report from a individual who I follow and who has auditioned and reported on a variety of TT equipment that as a 'Ball Part Figure' is in the Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars, GBP, euro's.
I have never at any time felt the need to disregard their assessments,        the usual follow up correspondance to a report made on a wider used item, will commonly show others are in some form of agreement with the content of a report. 
The assessment offered for the SR-510 was that when the Basic Model with an average Tonearm (I think the Aurex Supplied Arm) was used to carry out the Audition/Demonstration.
The SR-510 was reported on as presenting in a manner that was referred to,  as being quite comparable to their owned Micro Seiki DD TT.
From recollection the Two TT's were separated by quite a large margin in purchse values. 
I know the owned SR-510 used to produce the report, has remained in the individuals collection, it is still being used and is now adorned with a respected Brand 12" Tonearm and Cartridge. 

The above is a 'Curve Ball' and does detract for the original inquiry,          your informing on your career gained Skill Sets, has prompted
the content of this post and to suggest that a extended investigation of your options is considered.

What has not changed is the Budget Allocation for the Purchases.
My Experience is that Purchases in relation to depreciation and uplift are governed by the items purchased.

A Cartridge will lose value, a Cartridge being sold with a usage will be heavily reduced in value when compared against the retail price.
My Method I practice,  is a calculation where a MC Purchased at £1500 and is successfully used for 1000 Hours is on average £1.50 per hour to use.
If the MC is sent off with 1000 hours of usage to a Third Party for a Overhaul at approx' £400.
If the returned MC is successfully used with 1000 hours of usage is achieved then the use of the Cartridge
becomes more attractive as the Hourly cost is approx' £00.95
I don't change Cartridge Models or Brands much so this method suits my own situation.
With a Second Overhaul, and 3000 hours of  usage the Hourly cost could reduce to £00.75 
Not all will agree with such a Method but 'Hey Ho' it is working great for myself, and I chose this as a Method after it being a recommendation from other satisfied customers.

A Tonearm can lose value, maintain its value, and in many cases uplift in value.

A New TT can plummet in Value even if bought discounted and New.
A carefully chosen 'used' TT can maintain its value.
A carefully chosen Vintage TT, purchased at a reasonable price, that is treated as part of the ownership,  with a recognised method of Servicing or Third Party service being carried out to overhaul TT can at the least maintain the value, and in other cases uplift the TT in value.

My own experience and interaction with like minded Vinyl Enthusiasts,  shows that in many cases, there have been many years that have  passed, where working with the variety of permutations that can be created for a Vinyl Source and chain in a system are endured before a final place is arrived at.
I think it is fair to say, an Individual, when it comes to Vinyl,              matures to their preferrences over time, a little bit like Wine / Whiskey the pallet is satisfied 'most' after the continuation of growing in experiences.
The first taste is the one that sets the Journey Off, during the Journey the attractors and detractors are sifted out.
  
The Journey has to commence somewhere ? to get to a destination that is the most wished for preferrence?  ' is not usually discovered ' when the Journey is embarked, neither will it be usual for the preferrence to be  found at the first excursion, even though excursions are often quite educational, and can prove to be very inspiring.

When it comes to Spending a Large Sum of Money.
There is a concern that can be expressed.
The concern being, is that if the funds are spent, and in the not too distant future the 'reality check'  is that the preferred destination is still to be arrived at, and the end point is becoming clearer, as there are now devices identified that are seen to very beneficial.
There might not be too much left in the coffers to make the changes seen as  being required, unless an item of equipment is sold off.
An item of equipment that is the wanted item to be sold.
Could be the item which is severly lessened in value by a depreciation.
If this becomes the case, options to make an alternative acquisition  
will potentially be limited and additional monies may have to be allocated to enable the purchase/purchases that are seen as the route to a much needed upgrade. 

The other suggestion that a TT could be built using your Skill Set is another worthy consideration.
There are a variety of very stable materials available today at a very reasonable cost, that would be perfect as a Platter Spindle / Tonearm Mounting. 
There are very High Quality Spindle/ Bearing Housing Assemblies available. 
There are also extremely precise Motors available if the Belt Drive is he wanted Motor design. 

With your career background, Selecting Parts and Producing a Design for the Interfaces might prove to be very cost effective and extremely stimulating.            

 

With those skills, why not consider making your own? Lots more fun, lots more rewarding, and lots more bang for the buck.

I could share some thoughts from a successful build, if you are interested.

Hi @pindac, restoration/repairs for clocks, pocketwatches and wristwatches. Sometimes, if there are no spareparts available, they must be made.

Hi Greenhorn20
Are you skilled at machining Metal to produce a tight tolerance part ?

Thanks again. @dover @bajaed 

He has a Acoustic Signature Storm MK II at a special price, since it is a demo unit. But tending to the Feickert‘s as well.

As stated above, I would agree with Dover. Tho i have not heard the other two brands, the Woodpecker with the Kuzma was magical. And as you heard, the Volare is outstanding as well. You could have a few grand left over for albums if you went with it.

The only three brands he has, within my price range, most stuff costs even more, is Gold Note, Acoustic Signatur and Dr. Feickert.

Of those the Feickert would be the best in my view.
Feickert with Kuzma 4Point if possible is an excellelnt combination, and you could spend a lot more and get less.

@grk thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience, it’s appreciated.

The budget is there, have saved up for some time already, the plan was always to upgrade the dac, since it is the weakest link within my chain. But as mentioned the wish for a turntable came up. And the Dr. Feickert Volare loaner didn’t make things easier at all. :-)
The dealer I am referring to is very close to where I am living. Sometimes I‘ll visit him and we just sitting there talk and listen to some records, or digital stuff. And since I have a job where a lot of fine mechanics with tight tolerances are involved, I always was amazed by those beautiful tt. 
Yes, I agree as well, I‘ll hate buying two times my self. If I go the route with the turntable setup, the wisest would be, to have more patience and save up more to get it right the first time. 
Meanwhile I‘am enjoying the Rockna Wavelight dac. My AADAC is already a good one, but the Rockna is clearly a step above and really showing that the AADAC is the weakest link. 
I‘ll wait until my local dealer has everything in stock, then I‘ll decide.

The only three brands he has, within my price range, most stuff costs even more, is Gold Note, Acoustic Signatur and Dr. Feickert.

It looks like you have a budget of $10K. How long will it take you to have that amount? If you are close, then consider waiting a bit until you get more money, as opposed to buying something now and then upgrading later. The incremental approach while providing instant gratification does end up costing you more over the long run. I speak from experience!
Also, don't forget about the phono stage for your budget, as it plays a critical role in how good your analog rig will sound.
Since you are already considering an Origin Live (OL) tonearm, why not get one of their turntables as well, since they are made to go with each other? That would eliminate one concern about turntable and arm compatibility. The OL website also contains recommendations on how one can or should allocate funds when assembling an analog system.

If it were me, I would spend less on the cartridge and more on the turnatble, tonearm and phono stage. It's relatively easy to upgrade the cartridge later on. I have seen a number of articles where the reviewer uses a relatively inexpensive cartridge with a much more expensive table and arm with excellent sound quality.

I don't want to confuse you with all of the myriad of turntables and tonearms out there, but, have you considered a turntable that comes with a tonearm, such as the Vertere DG-1, Well Tempered or EAT? Also, a lot of dealers will provide a discount on a table, arm and cartridge package.

Anyway, good luck assembling your new analog system!

Thanks again for the great feedback!

For a HiFi Enthusiast, there is a lot of excitement in the in the prospect of creating a Vinyl Source and chain in a System.

You are fortunate to have been loaned a TT Set Up that has a well received appraisal and should be quite capable of showing a very good 
presentation in a comparison to your Digital Set Up.

The budget that allows for an allocation of 10K to acquire your Vinyl Set Up is quite substantial and leaves you wide open to many permutations, from Cartridge through to Phonostage.
If used Items are considered the list of options is extremely broad.

You are totally satisfied with your digital set up, so no requirements are urgent to get you enjoying music.
As for the Vinyl, try out a variety of TT's before committing.
Belt Drives, Direct Drives, Idler Drives.
An hour or so around each Type, should help you discover your leanings toward a preferred presentation from a Motor Drive.
By arranging to try out a selection TT's you will naturally be introduced to various Tonearms and Cartridges and this will increase on your experiences with options on the TT Set Up.   
Using ones own ears, and taking the time to spend meeting with others and conversing, will also be a great way to gather experiences and understand the reasons why a individual is using the equipment you are having a demonstration of.
Your own assessments prior to a purchase, will be critical to feeling you got absolute value from your allocation of funds.  

IME, #2 option sort of. Technics SL1200g TT wt arm, the top Hana cart and a Zesto Andros phono stage.
However, if you can afford better, I would invest in the best cart you can. The Technics TT is a great unit to build on.
But to pull out info in the grove, the best cart you can afford.
My new cart is the most amazing upgrade I have ever done.

crustycoot:
I have a Schiit Sol currently running Audio Technica flagship MM, the VM760SLC, and am very pleased with the combination. Considering I got the Sol at the Beta price, the combo cost about $1250, which is quite a deal. I think the Sol will become a collectors item, it is very unlikely to be oferred again I hear. Certainly sounds better than my digital setup, and almost as good as my SOTA cosmos/SMC/Kiseki HOMC system.

Thank’s for all the great feedback and suggestions!
Just realized that I forgot the important fact, that the dealer bings also a Woodpecker Setup along with some records. This way I can get within a week familiar with the tt and one dac, to see which way I want to go.

I agree with @dover ’s suggestions: turntable first, tonearm second, phono stage third, cartridge fourth. I went the other way once, against expert advice, to my cost.

The TT’s job is to turn a record silently. That means a first class bearing. Air is best. If you can’t do that, consider a Tom Fletcher design, like Nottingham Analogue (used is good but rarely available). I have one and it is not disgraced in the company of my DIY cost-no-object air bearing. The suspension in a suspended table costs. Don’t pay for it unless you need it. I live far from highways and my TT sits on bedrock, so I don’t need a suspension. YMMV

The tonearm’s job is to move quietly and precisely across the record. Again, air is best. The best bargain in high end is the Transfi Terminator at about $1000, for a hybrid air/mechanical pivot. They are highly adjustable (VERY important), and keep their settings. I use two of them.

The phono stage’s job is to shape and amplify the signal. Might try a used Audio Research here, and upgrade after everything else is perfect.

Cartridges wear out, are easily damaged, and sometimes break. TT, tonearms, phono stages don’t. Cartridges are therefore a rapidly sinking investment. Finally, cartridges have more influence on the sound than anything else, but pricier does not mean better, because your ears are part of the equation. Live with several cheap cartridges to decide what you like: bright or lush, etc. etc. You can always upgrade. If you throw away a few, not much lost.

Cables: $25 max until you are set up and comfortable. Then let any improvement, be it phono stage or cables, prove itself in your system before you buy.

IMO

Good luck!!!!

Direct Drive Technics SL1200 GR cost $1700 (made in Japan) and will outperform all those belt drives, will last for your entire life. It’s bulletproof, powerful and stable. Available in silver or black. Detachable headshell for as many cartridges as you wish, adjustable VTA of the fly on magnesium tonearm. Technically you will not find anything new and better than this, personal taste in design is another story. Belt drive is inferior technology, watch this. Read about it on audiogon. 

Has anyone here listened to a top flight MM or MI on a Schiit Sol?  This elegantly designed and very affordable player may be too cheap to warrant attention from deep pocketed audio snobs but where does it fail in actual listening performance?
Higher up the food chain but still relatively affordable there is the Well Tempered Amadeus 254. As an owner of a 35 y/o WTT, they deliver the goods for the long haul. Goodbye audiophilia nervosa!

There is no such thing as new/old stock in cartridges. All the materials used for suspensions harden over time by drying out or oxidation.

No, and you just repeat a fairy-tale promoted by re-tippers who charge money for making a Frankenstains out of original cartridges pretending for "upgrade" for a poor user who bought a bad or broken sample.

Every cartridge can be tasted with a test record for tonearm/cartridge resonance figure, so you can change a compliance and you can compared what stated in the manual. If the compliance is the same then suspension is fine. Do not tell me if you don’t know what you are talking about, stick to your digital.

The suspension on an unused cart that is 20-30 years old will have hardened to the point where it is pretty well solid.

This is 100% BS, read what stated above and search audiogon for MM thread to read comments from real people (various experienced members of this forum), if you don’t have personal experience please do not post this nonsense again.

Such a cartridge requires a new replacement suspension and possibly other parts according to model. With some manufacturers now out of business this may be impossible without specialist fabrication of a like for like replacement.

It requires NOTHING, just plug and play, absolutely no problem, do not expect that people are stupid, NOS styli are available and I bought many of them in the past 5 years for a cartridges made in the 80s.

I want to admit that your average re-tipper can’t change the suspension in MM cartridge, so you don’t know what you are talking about. Suspension on various models can be tuned (there is a tiny screw and tension wire), but even this is not necessary if you can buy a NOS cartridge stored properly (not a used junk from ebay in America from some amateurs).

Frankly it is a much better deal to buy a cart of recent manufacture.

Maybe you can’t read, so I will repeat again that I have cartridges from recent manufacturers in $3000-4000 price range, I tried enough of them.

People who praise vintage MM well aware of the sound of modern high-end cartridges.

It is you not are not aware of the sound of vintage high-end MM cartridges, this is the only reason you post such nonsense.

New is not better, remember, unused cartridge from the 70s or 80s does not have an expiration date. Do not buy broken carts and used junk from the strangers if you want to protect yourself.

Using over 50 different cartridges I am happy with my discoveries and my system is capable for all types on different tonearms with different phono stages. I can compare new to old (nos) and I trust my ears.

Some of the greatest vintage NOS samples are very expensive and people are bidding on them, if you think people are so stupid, so they can’t buy some new carts instead, you are wrong.

And again, I’m talking about unused vintage carts in Mint condition, often still sealed, this is what I’m looking for! If a used sample was nice in my system I will find unused NOS. This is why my top-10 list of carts is the same for over 5 years at least. There are brands and particular models that build very well and does not degrade in time during storage period.


I know very rich local people (audiophiles) who can buy whatever new ultra high-end cartridges from any manufacturer at any price, but for some reason they are looking for vintage NOS (those best and rarest high-end from the 80s). There are some amazing carts made in the 80s and no one can make anything like that today. I’m not gonna say all new high-end cartridges are bad, some of them are great, but do not underrate decent models from the past (especially when NOS available).

My favorite new cartridge is Miyajima Kansui (LOMC) and I like it better than any other LOMC at the moment.

Shelter 5000 also here. In the past I owned ZYX Airy III and Premium 4D SBII.
Those are very expensive cartridges.

I am not aware yet of a new MM that can compete with the best vintage MM or MI from my collection.

And my top vintage MM (purchased NOS) are better than almost any LOMC I have tried!

Some of the greatest MC from the past are also here (Miyabi Standard and Miyabi MCA, FR-7fz, FR-7f, Klipsch MCZ-10 , Dynavector with Diamond cantilever ... and many more). I like LOMC cartridges too. I want to tell you @clearthinker than I do not have any technical problem with any of my cartridges, no matter MM,MI,MC. So leave your horror stories for someone else who never tried decent NOS carts, maybe they will believe you.

Here is the link for SOTA. Call them and tell them what you are looking for. They can put together everything for you

https://sotaturntables.com/

So, went this morning to the local dealer. Since my complete setup is from him, we know us pretty well by now. He is a absolutely honest, trustworthy and very professional guy.

He echoed some of the thoughts you have already shared with me.

First off all he recommended me, since I start only with a handful of records, to finish my digital chain. He loves vinyl to death, he understands my itch to go parallel analog. If I get a new DAC and the wish to go analog doesn’t disappear, I should start to collect records ahead. This makes things easier. 

He suggested 3 DAC‘s: Aries Cerat Helene, Rockna Wavedream Signature and Lumin X1. 
Helene and X1 I heard already some month ago at his store.

Right now he doesn’t have all three in stock, but when he does, he visit me at home with all three of them. We listen for a evening together, I can choose one, keep it for a week to make up my mind and decide then.

If I  keep my AA DAC and choose to go analog, he says,  getting the table and arm as best I could afford, and build the rest around it with time.

Meanwhile he loaned me a Rockna Wavelight.

Lucky me to have a dealer like this near by!

@chakster 
There is no such thing as new/old stock in cartridges.  All the materials used for suspensions harden over time by drying out or oxidation.

The suspension on an unused cart that is 20-30 years old will have hardened to the point where it is pretty well solid.

Such a cartridge requires a new replacement suspension and possibly other parts according to model. With some manufacturers now out of business this may be impossible without specialist fabrication of a like for like replacement.

Frankly it is a much better deal to buy a cart of recent manufacture.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts and experience!

I‘m on the go now, will answering later that day with more time.

Nice system!
To echo a few others:

Turntable - invest here first

Tonearm and cart should be considered together. ( the Viv Lab does seem to work with most all carts so that is interesting...)


Can you listen /  demo any other tables to develop your personal tastes at all? Like a direct drive option and an idler drive option? The more you learn about your preferences the better.



$10k is a great budget for table arm carts and maybe phono too if you buy second hand etc...

There is a VPI Aries 1/Eminent Technology 2.5 on Audiogon right now, at a great price.

I have had Russian hooch smuggled out thru the diplomatic pouch. It tasted vaguely of solder used in a truck radiator- it was of no help in selecting a cartridge. It did have an impact on the volume of music that night and the intense desire for pain killers the next day.

lets get back to helping the OP

Buy more records !

The subject as stated by the op is a good one imo. Can we please stay on that subject and take the other argument elsewhere please?

Didn't know you collect Vodka. 
Can’t help you, I prefer white wine. 
How a good vodka can help in discovering NOS cartridges you should ask your friend. 

I have a good friend in Tokyo and there are a lot of work off-line to get some of the rarest NOS cartridges in perfect condition for my personal collection of the best vintage MM and MC.

Chakster, I have a good friend in Moscow who sells the finest Vodka - only the best potatoes are used - organically grown in only the finest of alluvial soils of course.

Dover, you are such a Sherlock Holmes, so I must be a millionaire according to your private investigation, bravo. How many cartridges per month do I sell, please tell me? I want you to recall my audiogon buyers, please. It’s funny to read you comment, because you see me as a businessman and blame me for something.

Let me tell you that audiogon is the worst platform for business, especially for vintage cartridges, if you think you can post something about cartridge and sell it next day privately you are naive like a 17 year old kid. I believe Raul and others posted about most of the cartridges in existence about 10 years ago.

Even if I can sell a few cartridges on audiogon (just like everyone on this forum), how does is correlate to my opinion about my best cartridges? Does it makes them bad or what? Or does it makes me dishonest about anything I posted? Very few people from audiogon asked me to sell a cartridge over the years, but many people asked for advice.

I have a good friend in Tokyo and there are a lot of work off-line to get some of the rarest NOS cartridges in perfect condition for my personal collection of the best vintage MM and MC. It’s my passion.

If you think you can get them online you are again naive like 17 y.o. kid. What you can get online in Japan is used cartridges listed as “junk” from the seller who can’t test them, and this is a blind deal, you know. Often kids sell their father’s or grandfather’s carts, but they have no clue what it is and don’t know how to grade them even if the cantilever is broken, they can’t make even a good pictures.

But audiophile scene is very strong in my county, some of the rarest stuff already here (speakers, cartridges, amps etc). If you search you will find them in Russia. And you probably missed those Japanese auctions 15 years ago (when the prices were 5 times cheaper).


What I like to do locally is to bring my mid priced vintage cart (and modern phono stage) for a demo for friends in their system. Once they hear it they want to throw away their inexpensive Ortofon, Grado, Nagaoka, AT ...


Local folks in my age, who are deep into music, doesn’t care about digital at all, they want vinyl. I’m happy to be surrounded by younger people who collect records (not files).


As been said before audiogon is for people over 60, but I’m 44.


I see a huge difference in preferred media format between people of different age. 

Save up longer. In the meanwhile window shop and do your research.
Unless you have a lot of records I usually do not recommend getting started especially if you can't get yourself a starter collection of around 50 records. What happens is you buy a few records, play them over and over wearing them out until you are board with them. You wind up building a worn out collection of records you are board with. There is no streaming records. In this regards digital is unquestionably superior. 
Manu of us have thousands of records so, there is no getting away from it. Many enjoy the tinkering involved in maintaining a top notch record playing system. Some people get started just to prove they are serious audiophiles. This is just a serious waste of money. Many would be better off improving their digital playback.  

 If you or someone else can’t find them I can help, try to understand it.

@chakster 

Oh I understand it.

You buy old cartridges off yahoo japan
You recommend those cartridges on audiogon forums.
And then you sell them based on your own recommendations on audiogon.

You are using audiogon for business purposes free of charge.
Why are you not supporting audiogon which you use to sell product by advertising your product on audiogon - instead of trying to peddle your old cartridges through forum posts and private contacts to audiogon members without paying a sales fee.

Of course you would say that because you peddle cartridges on eBay etc after recommendng them on this forum. You have a vested interest in that false argument.

Please post links to my sales on ebay or elsewere before you make such a blank statement, ok?

All “my cartridges” were recommended on this forum 10 years before I made my first post, so what? They were recommended by some other users years ago. 

I’m happy to share my new discoveries and I am happy to help people like you who can’t find NOS cartridges in perfect working condition. Because otherwise people like you will say they are impossible to find. If you or someone else can’t find them I can help, try to understand it. I only buy what I really like and when I like something I buy 2-3 samples!

All those modern MM and MI are inferior compared to the top vintage MM cartridges I have mentioned. I tried them all (Grado, Nagaoka, AT).

I think it’s a waste of time to recommend mainstream cartridges that any dealer will push to the buyer in every country. Leave it to professional reviews.

But it’s nice to recommend something special, at least I was happy to read about those special vintage MM or MI on this forum for many years and this is how I came to some exceptional cartridges after I wasted my money on overpriced LOMC in $3000-4000 range.


Keep your opinion as an opinion and keep spending money on super expensive carts if you want (if you rich enough), but I will keep recommending amazing cartridges from the past simply because I can compare them to old and new LOMC myself and based on such conparison I believe they are amazing (some of them are not expensive).

And remember, I am not a reviewer or a shop owner, I don’t get my cartridges for free, I pay my dues and share my experience with VINTAGE stuff. Being a honest person I do not post some BS, I am not that old yet.

Purchasing NEW carts for my needs in the past I realized that most of the high-end dealer have no idea what they are selling, they do not have enough knowledge and they never tried great carts from the past, they just keep on pushing average carts for insane prices to get their huge margins. This high-end business is full of myth and propaganda for rich buyers. Many times on this forum you said you was a dealer in the past. Dealers support and sell ONLY current production and this is serious problem, because good high-end does not have an expiration date! I’ve learned this over the years. I don’t give a .... about trendy modern high-end gear, I’m searching for the quality sound, if high-end MM from the 80s in NOS condition can give me that sound I am happy. If I will find 3 more samples of than great cart I will buy them all, maybe I could sell one. 

If you want mainstream plz go to your dealer or to your local shop, you will never find any cartridges from my list at your dealer, because they are discontinued 20-30 years ago, because designers of those carts are retired, because the company hired new designers and because they can’t make it anymore, they are making something else (not better, often even worth). We are in the digital era after all.

Your cartridge is the most important component in analog chain, if you want the most noticeable upgrade in sound quality just change your cartridge. And don’t believe the hype (MC is not better than proper MM).

@chakster

Of course you would say that because you peddle cartridges on eBay etc after recommendng them on this forum. You have a vested interest in that false argument.

The vintage moving magnets you recommend are unobtainable new and in most instances because the suspensions are very old, they are unlikely to be operating correctly as designed.

Best to buy the best turntable & arm he can afford and a starter cartridge.

There are plenty of good starter cartridges available new from Audiotechnica, Grado, Nagaoka, Ortofon etc.

@greenhorn20


Buy the best turntable you can afford and if possible the best arm. You can upgrade the cartridge easier later.

Try using the turntable without the arm and cartridge…the point is that They including phono preamp are a system. What do your local dealer carry, support and setup ? The good news, this is golden age of musical, well engineered and reliable LP playback systems….many, many excellent combinations… One essential bit to nail down is the question of how much good gain ( in the phono ) do you need to buy ? MM or MI will widen out your choice. 

Have fun, enjoy the music and never apologize for your English

Jim

I believe you cant go wrong with the Feickert turntables. I've head both the Woodpecker with a Kuzma 4 point arm, and the Volare with the stock Origin Live arm. Both were stunning. The Woodpecker would be my dream table but the Volare punches way above it's price imo and it's going to be my end game table. 
For 10k, I think you might find a demo or used Woodpecker with a good arm for around 7k, add a giant killer AT Art9 XI for 1k and there are lots of amazing phono stages that can be found in the 2k range especially if you go used.

Thanks millercarbon for sharing your experience, it’s appreciated.

So you are looking at about a $10k budget to start. I've done this enough to know there really is no right or wrong way, not at all like people want to make you think. Still you have the right idea, just need to shift the priorities a little.  

The turntable itself isn't the most important element, but it is the one you will use the most, see the most, appreciate the most. So if there is a turntable that really gets you going then go for it. Even if it is the most expensive one you can always run it with a lesser arm and cart and upgrade those later like you said.   

The Conqueror arm gets a big recommendation from me. You read the comments about matching arms and cartridges. Read Mark Baker's informative article about that. I am with Mark. Why would you buy any arm that fussy and limit yourself when you can buy a superior Origin Live arm instead and never give these things a moments thought? Let the other guys fret and fuss over it. That's what I do. Wonderful arm. Never give a moments thought to compliance, mass, or any of that. Simply not necessary with a properly designed arm.  

Another huge point in favor of OL, the integral phono lead. You can easily spend $5k just on the phono interconnect. What a waste! The Conqueror with its integral wire eliminates a lot of signal-distorting connections. This alone is another huge plus.  

Table and arm are as close to forever items as you can get. This alone makes it worth the extra to get as good as you can. Mine's been in use a good 17 years now. My system has grown around it like I cannot believe. That is a long time to still be happy, and it only happened because I stretched and put a lot into it.  

That said, the fact remains that like I said there is no one right or wrong way. Keith Herron makes a fantastic phono stage. Well, he did. If you had the chance to buy a VTPH2A I would leap all over it, screw the budget, screw the table, you can always get those later. These are hard to come by. Point being not to try and get one, but to keep an eye out for all the possibilities. Sounds like you have a plan to keep at it, and that is the right idea, because slow and steady wins this race. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367