Hello to everyone in this forum, I'm Mario from Venice, Italy and I'm a new member even if I read your posts since a lot of time.
First of all sorry for my written english, I will try to do my best.
I would like to know if anyone has been able to compare the BHK preamp with the best of ARC production and in my opinion this means with LS 22, LS 25 (both the versions...), Ref 3, Ref 5SE and so on.
Hi Mario, I have not heard the ARC preamps but from what I read there are big differences between the various ARC preamps with the Reference series being better than the LS series and each generation of ARC preamps being a step up from its predecessor.
I think one difference to consider between ARC and PS Audio is that ARC uses the 6H30 tube, which gives the ARCs a transparent sound and has sharp transients, etc. Some describe it as a more solid state type of sound but still having some tube characteristics. The PS Audio can use a variety of tubes (12AU7, 6DJ8, 7DJ8, 6922, 7308) and probably has more of a traditional tube sound. Not as quick and clean as the ARCs but it is still a very nice preamp.
Your English is very good, by the way. Better than some of the Americans who post here.
thank you for your compliments about my english and for your reply.
Actually what I've been able to experience in my long audiophile carreer is that there is not such a large gap between some LS and some Ref preamps models, I own an LS 25 mk1 and it is really a good piece of gear but it still add "something" that characterize it as a bit less than completely transparent, probably the mk2 series with the 6H30 tubes is a bit more transparent. I've tried to bypass it connecting my DSd directly to the power amp (ARC 100.2) and apart a light hummm what I perceived is a way better sound with more details, dynamics, harmonic content.
So what I really would like to know is if the BHK preamp is more transparent than the best ARC preamps and if it is transparent in absolute sense.
My final purpose is to try to understand if I can give up in using a preamp, connecting the DSd directly to my new BHK 250 power amp which is arriving from my dealer.
Mario I also use a DSD directly to an ARC 100.2 and with a balanced connection is dead quiet. I must admit that I am also curious about adding the BHK pre. On the PS Audio forums there are a few posts where ARC pre's are removed and the DSD is connected directly to the amp and they all agreed it sounded better.
Mario, it seems that no preamp is the way to go, but I must tell you that Paul McGowan the owner of PS Audio says that he finds that using a BHK preamp sounds better than not using one. Of course he wants people to buy his preamps, but if you can borrow one from a dealer or friend I would try it out and see what you think.
Thanks to all for your advices and suggestions, and yes, I've heard that a lot of people gave up in using preamps, especially in the case of DSd which has been specifically designed, when Mr McGowan didn't sell preamps and he was absolutely convinced that that was the right way to go, to work in this modality.
And yes, the way is to wait for the arrival of my BHK 250, to listen what will happen then and in case to have a BHK preamp borrowed by my dealer and investigate what will be the differences, 6000 $ in addition apart ;-)...
I've owned the DSD, Bricasti M1, Jeff Rowland Aeris, and now the Chord Dave DAC. In my "opinion" none of them sound good direct...the soundstage collapses and dynamics are lost.
Mario, we are not too far away from Paul's shop here in Colorado and we plan to drop in sometime soon anyway. What's your time frame? We can try the actual test with an without the pre and report findings back... His listening room with the IRS Vs is quite good and revealing. Paul would probably dig the experiment.
I have (almost) all PS Audio gear, and when I got the Directstream Jr DAC I was planning on it replacing the integrated amp I was using at the time by running it directly to my amps. While accurate in the mid & high end, I found the sound very thin and lacking in bass. I added the BHK Pre and the sound improved all around. I can't explain why another component in the chain added to the sound in such a profound way, but it did. I can't comment on ARC, but I can speak to PS Audio, and in my experience the addition of the pre to their DAC was most certainly an improvement (and frankly necessary in my system, as the DAC alone would have been insufficient).
Seems like the older pre amplifier designs are really substrative to the sound. It is my experience also.
Newer design are better, still I think ARC, Ayre and some other brands are asking just too much money for their top gun pres nowadays... just insane amounts when we think of it.
I've owned the LS27. It was decent in my system. I now own the BHK pre and for me it was a step up. In particular when paired with the PS Audio phono stage, it brought more life to my vinyl rig then I've ever heard. Joe
Having an Audio Research LS27 I have found that when I connect my approximatly 35 year old Stax headphone systems using Stax either solid state or tube Stax amplifiers with them that when I hook the Stax systems thru my LS27's record out outputs that the audio reproduction itself improves drastically for the better. Recently I replied in an Audio Research internet listning from someone who previously worked in a recording studio that they in fact hooked various audio devices themself thru the record outputs of a then top end Audio Research preamplifier. I also recently looked over a Pul McGowan video in which he himself learned, from his good friend, the late Arnie Nudell, how at the time a truly great preamp can itself vastly improve audio quality.I believe to achieve such results depends upon the quality of the preamplifier itself as when I tried the same experiment with a Classe DR5 solid state preamp, the sound quality is deminished. It is a simple experiment with even 35 plus year old Stax headphone systems. With a true quality preamplifier such as a recent Audio Research ls 27 the sound will in fact be much better than running the audio source directly into an amplifier. With a less than perfect preamp, but still not too bad, most likely the sound would be better running without a preamp than with one. By the way my present Audio Research LS27 on paper looks so simular to the PS Audio BK preamplifier. Both are solid state using only 2 small tubes, both offer single ended and ballanced inputs and outputs plus one is able to adjust the gain settings on all audio sources. Thus I get great results using only a Odyssey Khartago, 110 watts per channel, tu run my MartinLogan SL3's easily with great results. One of these days I will visit PS Audio as it is only4-5 miles away from me.
Paul McGowan said he had the same experience and that he couldn't explain it either.
@tomcy6 The explanation is simple- interconnect cables contribute to the system sound if not properly controlled. A raw passive volume control puts a series resistance between the source and the amp, essentially raising its output impedance. For this reason, bass and overall impact are reduced and the effects of the interconnect cable are more audible.
When the volume control is intimately involved with an active circuit that has a low output impedance (as you see in many line sections) this effect is reduced.
I am currently using top of the lind MG Audio Design interconnects, I first learned about them from the late Arnie Nudell. When I discovered that I could purchase half meter pairs for $900 I was in. I later later learned that Paul McGowan uses them as well. With my present Audio Researc LS27/Stax headphone system they are truly state of the art. Yes even today. If I had a top of the line current tube, ballanced Stax headphone system to connect to my LS27-well that would be an experience. But my best Stax headphone systen overall may be my SRD7sb/Lambda system-connected to my Rega Osiris integrared preamplifier. My audio source is an OPPO205, connected to my Rega Osiris by a half meter pair of MG Audio Design ballanced interconnects. What puts it over the top is that I have also included a one foot pair of top of the line MG Audio Design speaker wires between the speaker terminals of my Rega Osiris and the connecting wires from my Stax SRD7sb. Yes, Ihave simply added a truly state pair ofspeaker wires between the Stax-Rega combinstion. Oh yes, the speaker wires also sell for $900. It is truly amazing how good a 30-39 year old pair of Stax headphones can still be state of the art today. And considering any cost verses performance perameter, nothing else I know of comes close.
I must confess i did not read all the posts above but wanted to chime in on the addition of the BHK preamp. i too ran direct from the DSD to the BHK amp and it was terrific. however the addition of the preamp was a major improvement in sound. everything just sounded easier and more effortless. Paul is correct. There is no preamp like no preamp unless it is a BHK preamp
But this make me go back to my original enquiry: is the BHK preamp that good, especially matched to BHK power amps, or a (very good) preamp is always mandatory?
And a top Audio Research preamp is as good and mandatory as the BHK preamp with BHK power amps?
The only way to find out which is the best way to go is to actually do a comparison. You could use the mono BHK amplifiers first with the BHK preamp, next go to a top end recent Audio Research tube preamp. To make it complete try substituting a recent top VAC preamp. I notice that over the years Richard Vanderstein, besides his own solid state amplifiers for his model 7 speakers, has used VAV with Audio Research, Audio Research by itself, and at last October show in Denver used only VAC electronics. All three are truly great. It might depend upon the combination of actual electronics used as well as the chosen speakers. It might depend upon the person doing the evaluations personal prefrences.
Evening. Longtime lurker but no time like the present.
Mario, you will love what the BHK preamp does for your system. Like others in this thread, I was using a (DirectStream) DAC directly into the BHK 250 amp. Sounded great, but the tiniest bit dry and lifeless. Adding the BHK preamp improved everything. I guess sometimes “more is more.” Counterintuitive but there it is.
Recently added the BHK monoblocks. Well run in now and the system is producing the most enjoyable, musically involving sound I’ve experienced during my 30 years in the hobby. Always felt using one company’s electronics was in violation of the “audiophile way.” Naim (love/hate) and now PS Audio with full loom Triode Wire Labs have shown, at least in my room, the value of design, manufacturing, and voicing synergy. And it simplifies things a bit.
yes, I think that you are both right except for the fact that I'm waiting for the BHK 250 and not for the monos which in Italy cost an embarrassing bunch of money...
I will start with the DSd + BHK 250 configuration and with no hurry I will try to test them adding a borrowed BHK preamp, it will be a joy to discover the improvements...
On my speaker based audio system I am presently using an Audio Research LS27 preamp, but only a simple Odyssey Khartago amplifier. The reason is right now simply finances. But why I am mentioning this at this time that I still am able to achieve a quite presentable audio system in spite of the vast cost differences betwen the two. In my opinion the preamplifier being used is more important than the amplifier being used. Thus I would bet than having a PS Audio BHK preamplifier to use with their stereo Stella amplifier would create a much sound than using their $1500 preamplifier with their 250 amplifier. With my Audio Research LS27, using high gain, I get excellent sound with my little 110 watts per channel amplifier. Which helps explain why Alan Wolfe of Magico used to use the same exact Odyssey for his own audio dydtem as I presently do. And on paper the simularities between my LS27 and the BHK preamplifiers seem very simular. Which one sounds best would a direct comparison between the two. Again, thru going on 50 years in audio I personally think the preamplifier isthe single most important part of a high quality audio system, and that an audio system should be centered upon it for best results.
I meant the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell Dac for $1799. But my point is, as owners of the top of the BKH electronics have replied already that the addition of the BKK preamplifier adds great to the quality of the audio quality, it the just comes to which paticular preamplifier with what amplifier works best. With the quesstion of speakers used on what combination. In fact in many situations the most important factor may be the amplifier-speaker combination. Perhaps a tube amplifier driving a digital system might work. But again in my experience the addition of a preamplifier such as my Audio Research makes everything played thru it sound better. Much, much better. And the BHK preamplifier is very simular-each using just two little tubes to help make magic.
I'll add my vote to at least trying the DSD direct into your power amps regardless of your amp choices. I'm still getting over the fact that for me, the DSD sounds better run directly into my Pass amps rather than through my existing preamp (which is an Aesthetix Janus).
((( I'm still getting over the fact that for me, the DSD sounds better to run directly into my Pass amps rather than through my existing preamp )))
Running a tube preamp into a low impedance load and this is what happens. Try an Aesthetix Atlas power amp or Atlas monoblocks with your Janus Pre amp and you will be scratching your head in the other direction. Best JohnnyR
I’m also considering between these. A PS Audio BHK vs the Audio Research 5SE. Can any provide insights here? Looking to add some tube warmth to my setup with a McIntosh MC452 amp.
Well if you like the idea of the BHK preamp, BHK himself (the man, not the preamp) extolls the Aesthetix line stages as just superb. I have one and I can also assert that they are simply awesome...all tube, maybe every so slightly more liquid and tube-like than ARC products. Extremely well designed, great construction.
If you're looking to add tube warmth that can be adjusted then you will get more with the BHK with NOS 12AU7 or even 6DJ8 tubes than you will get from the ARC with it's Sovtek/EH 6H30 tubes. The non-Reference models may still give you rolling options but ARC preamps are not known for typical "tube warmth."
From what I've heard, the through-the-preamp or direct-to-amp question is like many in audio: both can be good, depending on the usual factors. Impressions I've gotten indicate audiophiles are split about 50-50 on the question, both, no doubt, with good reason. Meaning, aside from any meaningful technical questions such as that as raised by JohnnyR above, the only real route is to try both. My preamp maker and dealer feel, for my equipment, it's better through the preamp, although "no one understands why". Jim Heckman
So, whatever happened with this experiment? I to am contemplating moving to a BHK Pre or LS27 and a bit torn. Would love to get this thread going again.
Yes, thank you for asking, I've sold the BHK250 and bought a Pass XA30.5 + an ARC LS25 mk1 + Proac D30R and now I'm really happy with my system, finally...
The BHK250 has been a bad experience to me, probably the problem were the speakers, Totem Mani Two...I don't know...
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